How can you guys...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-24 12:30am

Hyperspace in the SW galaxy is actually far older than that. An even more ancient civilization once existed. It created such wonders as the Corellian system, Vuffi Raa, Magwit's Mystifying Hoop, and the Maw Cluster. These feats are beyond even current SW technology, many by a long ways.

However, you guys are completely correct in citing the 25,000 years. That is about how old the current SW civilization/society is.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-24 01:05am

Are you sure Vuffi Raa and his race was created by the Hyperspace Aliens? I've never heard anything like that. The Corellian System, Magwit's Hoop, and the Maw: I'll automatically give you that. But I always thought Vuffi Raa's race originated on their own (or created by someone else).

WOOHOO!! 500TH POST!! I AM NOW A JEDI KNIGHT!! FUCK YOU ALL!! WOOHOO!!

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-24 01:11am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Are you sure Vuffi Raa and his race was created by the Hyperspace Aliens? I've never heard anything like that. The Corellian System, Magwit's Hoop, and the Maw: I'll automatically give you that. But I always thought Vuffi Raa's race originated on their own (or created by someone else).

WOOHOO!! 500TH POST!! I AM NOW A JEDI KNIGHT!! FUCK YOU ALL!! WOOHOO!!

First off, congratulations on your promotion, Spanky. I've been missing far too many of these, recently, so I apologize to everyone who I have not congratulated on their promotions.

Actually, I was mistaken. The EGD states that Vuffi was actually created "Eons ago in the Unknown Regions, [by] an advanced alien species that was tragically wiped out by a sudden radiation storm."

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-24 01:14am

Yeah, I remembered something like that (I don't have my EG's with me).

Just wanted to be sure.

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-09-24 01:37am

Huh! Dude! I just realized I got bumped from "Newbie" to "Youngling" Cool! Now I can take off this damn diaper and wear Underoos like a Real Man! I would not have noticed were it not for Spanks!

In the "Essential Guide to Droids" Vuffi Raa was described as a robot, made by a race of robots, who took over after their organic masters went extinct due to a natural accident. These robots are timid and pacifistic, and cruise around in giant world-droids, mostly keeping a low profile from the Empire.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-09-24 01:56am

My god more unintellegent life. Bet those Nav. Deflectors would do about as well against Known Universe Launch Lasers (You know the ones that gut larger ships in half from the edge of a solar system. That's about what you are claiming. Stupid idiots.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-09-24 02:01am

Actually, if most people would pay attention to the rest of the lines concering the "laser-can't-penetrate-nav-deflectors" quote, you will see that the size of the vessel and it's power output influence Picards' little comment.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-09-24 02:53am

Wow, this mushroomed fast.
For a counter argument that hasn't been used in this type of debate as far as I know: B&B have been quoted as saying that they do not consider TOS canon, as it was not in keeping with Gene Roddenberry's original vision. Since there is no option between absolute canon and "it never happened" in Star Trek continuity, and all of the other Star Trek series have ties to TOS, none of Star Trek is canon, and thus can not be used in a vs. argument, as you can't fight something that never existed.

RadiO · Post by **RadiO** » 2002-09-24 06:09am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
2000AD wrote:a mook?
You know, those magazine/book things they have in Japan.

No, wait, wrong kind of mook.

I read somewhere that Mooks are the random, hapless henchmen in Hong Kong action movies, whose sole reason for existing is to be killed by the hero in the most spectacular way possible. A typical Mook will appear and futilely fire off a few rounds from his AK at the Vengeful Protagonist, before being shot, having their windpipe slashed open and then kicked off a fire escape. All in a day's work.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-09-24 09:25am

RadiO wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
2000AD wrote:a mook?
You know, those magazine/book things they have in Japan.

No, wait, wrong kind of mook.
I read somewhere that Mooks are the random, hapless henchmen in Hong Kong action movies, whose sole reason for existing is to be killed by the hero in the most spectacular way possible. A typical Mook will appear and futilely fire off a few rounds from his AK at the Vengeful Protagonist, before being shot, having their windpipe slashed open and then kicked off a fire escape. All in a day's work.

Too bad we can't do the same to Darkstar...

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-09-24 11:47am

Master of Ossus wrote:Hyperspace in the SW galaxy is actually far older than that. An even more ancient civilization once existed. It created such wonders as the Corellian system, Vuffi Raa, Magwit's Mystifying Hoop, and the Maw Cluster. These feats are beyond even current SW technology, many by a long ways.

What's so special about those system/wonders? (excuse my ignorance)
I'm specially curious about Corellia.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-24 12:06pm

EmperorMing wrote:Actually, if most people would pay attention to the rest of the lines concering the "laser-can't-penetrate-nav-deflectors" quote, you will see that the size of the vessel and it's power output influence Picards' little comment.

It has also been abundantly pointed out that turbolasers have nothing to do with L.A.S.E.R.'s. Likely its an archaic holdover of terms, like calling a sabot round for an M1A1 tank a "bullet," and that would be but a grossly inadequate comparison, since we would be comparing a difference in time based on many thousands of years.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-24 12:18pm

The Corellian System has about half a dozen inhabital planets, which were positioned into orbit by a race of powerful aliens (unofficially dubbed the Hyperspace Aliens, I think) a very long time ago. Each planet has something called a Repulser, which when targeted by an object called Centrepoint Station, allows the planet to "pulled" through Hyperspace to a location. Centrepoint Station can also be used as a weapon, causing stars withing a certain number of lightyears to go nova within days.

The creation of the Corellian System happended so long ago that the only real evidence that it happened are the Repulsers and Centrepoint Station themselves.

The Maw is a cluster of black holes located near Kessel (and are the reason for smugglers to boast about the Kessel Run). The holes are positioned so close to each other that while still being stable, could not have formed that way naturally, because it's physically impossible. Physicists in the Galaxy have theorized that the Maw may have been created by an ancient alien race eons ago, and could relate to some kind of experiments in Hyperspace or extra-dimensional travel.

Magwit's Mystifying Hoop is a pair of hoops (and a box) that allow objects to be transported through Hyperspace across short distances from one to the other. They are currently in possesion of a magician called Magwitt, who uses them for disappearing tricks. Many systems of the hoops can only run for a few minutes before burning out, requiring their replacement. The Hoop has been described as being too advanced for current technology. It's origin is unknown.

The similarities between the Hyperspace nature of all three suggest that they might have been made by the Hyperspace Aliens of the ancient past, who disappeared without a trace.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-09-24 12:23pm

jegs2 wrote:
EmperorMing wrote:Actually, if most people would pay attention to the rest of the lines concering the "laser-can't-penetrate-nav-deflectors" quote, you will see that the size of the vessel and it's power output influence Picards' little comment.
It has also been abundantly pointed out that turbolasers have nothing to do with L.A.S.E.R.'s. Likely its an archaic holdover of terms, like calling a sabot round for an M1A1 tank a "bullet," and that would be but a grossly inadequate comparison, since we would be comparing a difference in time based on many thousands of years.

Yes, we have not one but TWO very convincing arguments against the boojum majic imperviousity of Trek shields against LASERS. First: Wars lasers aren't lasers (or LASERs), just like a Gamma Ray Laser isn't a LASER either. Second: LASERs have been shown to be a threat to Trek ships. The only "evidence" to the contrary came from a ship roughly the size of a torpedo

Plus it was contradicted by the original screenplay.

Trek arguments usually look like this:

T: The Enterprize has shields that can't be damaged by LASERs, no matter how powerful!
W: But they were damaged by a LASER fired by the Borg
T: Yes, but that LASER was very powerful!
W: But you just said "no matter how powerful"
T: Yeah but the Borg can adapt!
W: The Borg were on the firing size, not on the receiving side. What does it have to do with adapting? Adapting to what?

Of course, the only LASERs the Trek universe has ever seen are 20th century lasers.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-24 02:14pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
jegs2 wrote:
EmperorMing wrote:Actually, if most people would pay attention to the rest of the lines concering the "laser-can't-penetrate-nav-deflectors" quote, you will see that the size of the vessel and it's power output influence Picards' little comment.
It has also been abundantly pointed out that turbolasers have nothing to do with L.A.S.E.R.'s. Likely its an archaic holdover of terms, like calling a sabot round for an M1A1 tank a "bullet," and that would be but a grossly inadequate comparison, since we would be comparing a difference in time based on many thousands of years.
Yes, we have not one but TWO very convincing arguments against the boojum majic imperviousity of Trek shields against LASERS. First: Wars lasers aren't lasers (or LASERs), just like a Gamma Ray Laser isn't a LASER either. Second: LASERs have been shown to be a threat to Trek ships. The only "evidence" to the contrary came from a ship roughly the size of a torpedo Plus it was contradicted by the original screenplay.

Trek arguments usually look like this:

T: The Enterprize has shields that can't be damaged by LASERs, no matter how powerful!
W: But they were damaged by a LASER fired by the Borg
T: Yes, but that LASER was very powerful!
W: But you just said "no matter how powerful"
T: Yeah but the Borg can adapt!
W: The Borg were on the firing size, not on the receiving side. What does it have to do with adapting? Adapting to what?

Of course, the only LASERs the Trek universe has ever seen are 20th century lasers.

Actually, I just thought of a good analogy: Horsepower. That's an old holdover for measuring modern engines.

"My engine has 40 horsepower."
"You still use horses?!"

"pssst. I don't think he gets it...."

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-24 04:46pm

jegs2 wrote: Actually, I just thought of a good analogy: Horsepower. That's an old holdover for measuring modern engines.

"My engine has 40 horsepower."
"You still use horses?!"

"pssst. I don't think he gets it...."

That's basically the case for a LOT of terms in use and poeple who resort to such semantics arguments are bound to lose since it requires that the name BE the thing. It doesn't have to be though it usually will give you clues.

greenmm · Post by **greenmm** » 2002-09-24 05:25pm

Captain Zod wrote:
Evil Jerk wrote:Hey, you're joking right? Very funny. Anyway..

Think the Empire has a chance against the Federation?
The Empire will destroy the Federation, blow up earth and turn the debris into quality toys for loyal Imperial children, mwahahaha! Bwhahaha! Huahahahaha!

You need help.

Hmmm... what's that term Mike always has to use?

Oh yeah.... ad hominim attack.

Wonderful way to start your rebuttal.

They use primitive lasers, which can't penetrate even navigational shields!
1. SW weapons share some similarities with lasers, but not others.
The raw 200GT power of a heavy turbolaser on a TROOP TRANSPORT should tell you something about what they'd do..
2. "The Outrageous Okona" showed us that Picard did not fear the pop gun lasers on a pair of antiquated piece of shit space ships, this does not translate to being able to deflect all lasers everywhere, congratulations on your leap of logic.

1. I don't care what some stupid fanmade numbers.
2. he said "Lasers? They won't even penetrate our navigational shields" as in ALL LASERS.

1. Not fanboy numbers. Any physics textbook will tell you the properties of light and lasers, which show that SW 'lasers' aren't traditional lasers:
-- speed of travel. Lasers travel at light speed. Therefore, we'd see an instantaneous beam on the screen, even faster than the phaser beams we see in ST. Instead, all canon sources show a measurable velocity for laser, blaster, and turbolaser blasts that is much slower than lightspeed, and nearly always in a vacuum (where light is at its fastest). That points to the beams not being lasers.
-- visibility of lasers. Unless the atmosphere is full of particles, or you're directly looking into the beam, you can't see a focused light beam or laser. Yet we can easily see the laser and blaster bolts onscreen, especially in space.
2. He wasn't stating a scientific conclusion in his dialogue, he was expressing arrogance.

Sounds like you need to read Mike's treatise on this topic...

And while Voyager has a cruise speed of 1000+ c, the "fastest ship in the galaxy" Falcon can barely due 1.5c!
So you take Solo's ".5 past lightspeed" quote literally eh?
Well then, since you'll ignore all the evidence that it's a .5 Hyperdrive capable of crossing the galaxy, I'll take the quote in the TNG episode with the wargames literally, when the Ferengi refers to the fact that the Enterprise lost it's "lightspeed drive", therefore they can only go near lightspeed.

Provide a quote. And New evidence overrides old.

And SW never crossed a galaxy as the Empire is so small.

What new evidence? There are very few, if any, canon sources for ST (canon according to Paramount) which say how fast each Warp Factor is. And according to the "official" (ie. non-canon, and not allowable for canon discussions, according to Paramount) sources, Voyager is rated at that speed... and more importantly, we see plenty of canon evidence where high warp factors beyond 9.5 stress the ships too much for them to sustain for long periods of time (long being even a few hours, let alone 60 years). Actually, we know canon for Voyager -- the distance they had to travel to get back home in LY was 1000 times as large as the time it would take to get home in years. That works out to 1000 LY every year, or 1000 c.

As for the Falcon never crossing the galaxy... we see it sitting outside the galaxy at the end of TESB, yet by ROTJ they've been back within the galaxy for months. And besides, we see from canon that it takes about 1 day to get from the Core Worlds (Coruscant) to the Rim areas (Tattooine). Given the size of the SW galaxy (120,000 LY), that works out to a conservative FTL speed of 2500 LY/hour, or about 22 million c (that's about 22,000 times as fast as Voyager). And that's with ships that are 30-40 years older than the ones we see in ANH, TESB, and ROTJ.

And if that wasn't enough, they don't even have 1000 ships. Since Solo though that was a big impressive number, they probably has around 300-500 ships. Compare that to the fleet in "Sacrafice of Angels" which was 600 and concidered small!
Federation probably has around 6000 to 12000 depending on who you ask (at the very most, and that includes all classes, all craft.
Empire has 25,000 ISDs alone, not counting other craft.

Wrong. The Federation has at least 20 000 ships to beat the Dominion.

And that's official overrided by CANON.

20,000 ships where? What kind? What type?

They could only scrounge up 600 capital ships for their big push against the Dominion (canon, remember).

And don't forget, that 20,000 includes all the runabouts, shuttles, warp shuttles, survey ships, cargo carriers, and other ships that Starfleet runs.

To put it in perspective, during the Cold War, the USN strove for a 600-ship navy. It was bigger than any allied navy, but about on par number-wise, if not smaller, than the Soviet Navy. The crux, however, was the composition of the navy. It had 15 capital ships, compared to the 3 or 4 in the Soviet Navy (each of which was inferior to the USN ships). So, saying that Starfleet has thousands of ships means nothing without knowing the composition -- and we don't have canon examples of more than maybe 1000 capital ships available to Starfleet.

In contrast, SW continuity allows for official as well as canon sources... and the Empire has 25,000 ISD's, in addition to its other ships. With a 25-to-1 advantage in capital ships, and the fact that its capital ships outnumber the entire Starfleet, points to an overwhelming advantage for SW.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-24 08:44pm

Once again for those of you who tiresomely insist on bringing up the "laser theory" in defense of your rabidly pro-ST views, a turbolaser has about as much in common with a L.A.S.E.R. as an M1A1 tank has with a horse. Nothing in canon suggests that a 200 gigaton turbolaser bolt has anything in common with a L.A.S.E.R. beam. The two are as different as the moon is from the sun, and neither share the characteristics of the other. So, if you insist on bringing up your "laser" points (no pun intended), then develop a new strategy, because that dead horse of an issue has finished stinking and turned to dust long ago.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2002-09-24 09:09pm

Soontir C'boath wrote: The only thing the Federations would be able to destroy are TIE Fighters and picket ships like the carrack cruiser.

Now, now, now, the federation would never be able to take out a 350m Carrack. Considering a Correlian Corvette can take out a Borg Tactical Cube, a Carrack is about 10 times more powerful thanthe corvette.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-24 09:19pm

Most debaters now agree that the Empire has more ISD's than the Federation has shuttlecraft.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2002-09-24 09:21pm

I was sympathizing with the Trekkie as I try to give them a capital ship to shoot down. How 'bout a bulk cruiser? No no no....they carry some turbolasers.... Lancer Frigate....no no no it's an anti-star fighter platform and couldn't be considered a cap. ship so it shouldn't count.......

In the end I guess. They can't destroy any Cap. Ship.

Cyaround,
Jason

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-24 10:09pm

Soontir C'boath wrote:I was sympathizing with the Trekkie as I try to give them a capital ship to shoot down. How 'bout a bulk cruiser? No no no....they carry some turbolasers.... Lancer Frigate....no no no it's an anti-star fighter platform and couldn't be considered a cap. ship so it shouldn't count.......

In the end I guess. They can't destroy any Cap. Ship.

Cyaround,
Jason

Well maybe they could at least destroy some Blastboats. I mean those are at least transport sized right?

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2002-09-24 10:12pm

Blastboats? They are big fighters with a huge payload of torps and missles. Well that's from XWA anyway. They're probably 20 m that's what i'm guessing.

Cyaround,
Jason

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-09-24 10:13pm

Reminds me of a Email I sent Graham Kennedy.

'They can't be that advanced they still use Nuclear weapons'

In refrence to the Kzin

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-24 10:14pm

Soontir C'boath wrote:Blastboats? They are big fighters with a huge payload of torps and missles. Well that's from XWA anyway. They're probably 20 m that's what i'm guessing.

Cyaround,
Jason

They seem closer to 25 meters. Anyway, yes, they handle like very large fighters. They are in a multitude of books, including SbS and DFR. If you're ever writing a SW book in that time frame, use a blast boat because they seem to correspond to the good books.