B5 planetkillers

[Crossover_Maniac]

Yes, there was an asteroid field, *in another episode*. That asteroid field was not the remains of a planet. The rocks were moving much too slowly the have achieved escape velocity from a planet.

The rock's velocity relative to what? You saw a small sample of rocks moving at approximately the same speed as the planet killer. If I'm in a ship moving 90% the speed of light in the same direction as another ship also moving 90% the speed of light relative to a stationary frame of reference, it would appear the other ship is standing still in my frame of reference. It appears your frame of reference was the VPK. And I would like to remind you Lyta's statement was 'there was NO planet' there.

[adam warlock]

I don't believe a probe was sent to the planet to confirm destruction.

exchange between Ivanova and C&C (still on the whitestar) just after marcus and ivanova got back from discovering the vorlon fleet

Ivanova: Ivanova to c&c.
C&C: C&C online
Ivanova: W'ere coming in, find Lyta Alexander, i need to see her as soon as possible.
C&C: Confirmed. Anything else?
Ivanova: Yes i want you to RUN a PROBE on all transmissions, from sector..
Marcus: ...70 by 10 by 53..
ivanova: Did you get that?
C&C: Got it. What are we looking for?
Ivanova: I dont know.. w'ill know it when we find it..

now lets look at ivanova's contributions to the exchange, at the end of the episode.

Marcus: ...We tried to track them. But we lost them at around sector 70..
Delenn: Theres a shadow base not far from there.
Ivanova: Exactly! so as soon we got back i had C&C MONITOR that area for any transmissions, ANYTHING UNSUAL. The shadow base was located on a planet called arkada7. Its not there anymore.
Lennier: The base?
lyta: No! The planet! They DESTROYED...They DESTROYED an entire planet!.

yes they monitored that area.. how.. by sending a probe there..
it would be a bit silly to RUN a probe, without sending it to the area to be investigated..
anything is not limited to monitoring signal(radio/em/etc) transmissions..

She then reported that the planet was destroyed.

actuallly she indicated the planet was not there anymore..
lyta (who knew the vorlons, and their capabilities better than any of assembled group) added that it was "DESTROYED (TM)".

Then, we learn that the VPK left "survivors on the ground." That statement has been debated as much as any other in B5 canon. What is so difficult to understand about it? Ivonova said that survivors reported massive destruction on a planetary scale. There goes the stupid idea that they later wanted to evacuate these people from worlds they had evacuated to. If they had already evacuated, how did they know about the massive destruction???
Ivonova said they needed medical ships. There goes the stupid idea that they later wanted to evacuate these people from worlds they had evacuated to. If they had evacuated before the attack, why do they need medical ships

lets look at ivanovas 1st report at the start of "falling towards apothesis"

report 1

"We're pre-empting your normal BabCom service to bring you another update on the continuing crisis. Two more deep-range planetary colonies have been eliminated by Vorlon forces." The image changes to that of the Vorlon fleet. "This footage was taken as the Vorlon fleet closed in on Ventari III. The ship eclipsing the local star is presumed to be their main weapon, the planet-killer. Below is a list of nearby colonies and League worlds which are accepting REFUGEES from Ventari III. We will continue to update this list as the situation changes. If you are from the Ventari SYSTEM, you are asked not to return until authorized. The local jumpgate has been destroyed, and hyperspace traffic is creating a hazard at the jump intersection. Contact your ambassadors for information on family members who may have ESCAPED before the colony was destroyed. We're taking in REFUGEES and ESCAPING SHIPS as fast as we can, but our resources are almost maxed out. We will repeat this bulletin every twenty standard minutes until we receive new information. Once again, please remain calm. Right now, our greatest enemy is fear."

with regards to the destruction of ventradi iii..in NO Way was survivor mentioned.. either REFUGEES, ESCAPE, ESCAPING SHIPS

examine ivanovas second report

2nd report:

"This is a Command and Control update. THE SAFE HAVEN FOR REFUGEES on Tizino Prime is no longer responding. We believe they may have fallen to the Vorlon advance, but we can't be sure for another--I guess--ten, twelve hours? Before they attack, the Vorlons blanket all frequencies so no reports can get out. There have been some CHANGES TO THE LIST OF REFUGEE STATIONS. We'll have that information for you shortly--WE'VE LOST THREE OF THEM. All the governments in sector 57 have declared A STATE OF INTERPLANETARY EMERGENCY... REPORTS coming in from survivors indicate mass destruction on a planetary scale. We continue to need medical ships, transports, ANYTHING THAT CAN FLY. We're in special need of atmosphere-capable shuttles to evacuate survivors from the ground. We'll rebroadcast this message in twenty standard minutes."

its clear from here that the vorlons started targeting those VERY planets the REFUGEES are using as safe havens.. lists of refugee stations is being changed.. and state of interplanetary emergency being declared..
having MORE ships around, esp atmospheric capable ships, can help definitely help with speeding up the process of the evacuation, in case they NEED to do it quickly.

Ivonova said that survivors reported massive destruction on a planetary scale. There goes the stupid idea that they later wanted to evacuate these people from worlds they had evacuated to. If they had already evacuated, how did they know about the massive destruction???

QUote from the Official babylon 5 chronology. Season four: no surrender, no retreat states that;;

REFUGEES from ventari ii and the other OBLITERATED colony are taken in by Babylon 5, stretching the stations resources to the limit. The refugees bring with them a RECORDING of the Vorlon planet killer eclipsing the local sun in the Ventari system.

its not a stretch to say that the ventari. and other folks used a probe or a satellite to acquire visuals on the vpk+vorlon fleet, and make a recording, after they evacuated the system.

Ivonova said they needed medical ships. There goes the stupid idea that they later wanted to evacuate these people from worlds they had evacuated to.

look at above.. 2nd report... those worlds they have evacuated TO were also being targeted by the vorlons, nearby governments is state of emergency.. all availabe ships placed on standby.. medical ships etc.

look at third report of ivanova.

3rd report

"This is Command and Control," Ivanova says on BabCom. "We have another update on the Vorlon attack fleet. The Dura VII outpost has FALLEN. I Repeat, Dura VII has fallen. All medical ships in the area are being asked to help with the evacuation..."

stupid idea?.. its fact that they did HAVE to help with the EVACUATION..the people were evacuated..ect.. period.
question is.. WHY only MEDIcal ships, to HELP with the evacuation..
surely they need as many ships as they can..
this very much points to the fact the dura7 populance has already left the planet, and needed to be helped in being directed to another haven.. which is still helping with the evacuation..medical ships make ideal help as to treat anyone injured (during evac process) or bring care to those that came from hospital like facilities, for which vital medical equipment/supplies were left behind.

The word "survivor" means that they survived the attack. She didn't say they needed help moving refugees!

shadow warchief already dealt with that one..
and its pretty much indicated that susan ivanova was using the word "survivor" loosely..

After a flood, do you send in the ambulances to the peope who ran for higher ground before the waters peaked???

to help with supplies just in case, to give help to those who where injured in the process of escaping the flood, etc, just in case.. pls dont join the red cross, or good forbid be an ambulance man..

ambulance guy1: "theres been a flood, but few people have managed to survive. we are being called to help them.!"
brian young: "why?.... they have "survived".. they dont need help."

And Ivonova told people to wait for clearance to return to a planet after an attack. Why would they want to go back if the planet wasn't there???

GOOD grief.. she said "If you are from the Ventari system, you are asked not to return until authorized. "

SYSTEM!!..

Guys, no matter how much you want it, the evidence shows that the VPK does not destroy all life on a planet. And since some people wanted to return to their planet, the VPK doesn't make the planet uninhabitable.

well u can put it which ever way you want..
i dont care.. whatever conclusion u come up with will always be less than official than b5 wars :p

[Darth Wong]

Is this the way all B5 debates go? How is anything supposed to get done with all of this useless semantic nitpicking, obsession over nuances of interpretation of hidden meaning behind dialogue, etc?

Here are some simple facts, gentlemen. If I see a planet being destroyed in a manner where I can get some objective data from the event, then I have seen a planet destroyer. Better yet, I can generate some numbers. However, if I see nothing except for some vague events and vague dialogue which is hopelessly inadequate to derive a physical picture of what happened, then I have not seen a planet destroyer. I have seen something that might be a planet destroyer, but "might be" isn't worth squat. Any unfamiliar sci-fi weapon "might be" a planet destroyer, but until we actually see it do the job, that's mere speculation.

By the way, for the people who repeatedly scream that a VPK destroyed a planet because we saw it surrounded by big chunks of rock: read my planet-killer page. Specifically, the part about asteroids. An extremely powerful impact will hurl billions of tons of material into space at many kilometres per second! If a Vorlon planet-killer fires a planet-killing (not planet-destroying) blast at a planet (particularly from a beam weapon, which will have more of a drilling action), you should expect to see a towering plume of material hurled into space, hence debris around the VPK afterwards. You people are making a tremendous leap in logic from "debris in space" to "gravitational potential energy of planet overcome". There are many, many orders of magnitude difference between one and the other.

Let it go. There are lots of sci-fi planet-destroyers. Star Wars does not have a monopoly on the idea. But that doesn't mean you have to force one into B5 just to keep up with the Joneses.

[David]

Is it really necessary to quote some one over and over and over again?

[adam warlock]

Is this the way all B5 debates go? How is anything supposed to get done with all of this useless semantic nitpicking, obsession over nuances of interpretation of hidden meaning behind dialogue, etc?

it would have to be since there were no visuals accompanying the vpk going on about its business, i.e. to "destroy" a planet... youll just have to get used to it.

Here are some simple facts, gentlemen. If I see a planet being destroyed in a manner where I can get some objective data from the event, then I have seen a planet destroyer. Better yet, I can generate some numbers.

susan ivanova stated that arkada 7 was gone, after ordering c&c to send a probe to the sector the planet resided in.
lyta confirmed by stating that the planet was destroyed.

just that we dont know the process by which the vpk destroys the planet, and what the size of the planet was.

However, if I see nothing except for some vague events and vague dialogue which is hopelessly inadequate to derive a physical picture of what happened, then I have not seen a planet destroyer. I have seen something that might be a planet destroyer, but "might be" isn't worth squat.

yes that "vague" dialogue did not give anything "tangible" with regards to the process of how the vpks executes its primary function... it does however point to the fact that planets were being destroyed/obliterated afterwards.

By the way, for the people who repeatedly scream that a VPK destroyed a planet because we saw it surrounded by big chunks of rock: read my planet-killer page . Specifically, the part about asteroids. An extremely powerful impact will hurl billions of tons of material into space at many kilometres per second! If a Vorlon planet-killer fires a planet-killing (not planet-destroying) blast at a planet (particularly from a beam weapon, which will have more of a drilling action), you should expect to see a towering plume of material hurled into space, hence debris around the VPK afterwards. You people are making a tremendous leap in logic from "debris in space" to "gravitational potential energy of planet overcome". There are many, many orders of magnitude difference between one and the other.

i already came to that conclusion some time ago... nice of you to concur.

Let it go. There are lots of sci-fi planet-destroyers. Star Wars does not have a monopoly on the idea. But that doesn't mean you have to force one into B5 just to keep up with the Joneses.

forcing?..no..
finding out whether it did or not is what we are after..
even though, there were NO visuals shown of the vpk destroying the planet..there were indications of it being able to do so, and doing so.
but in the end. it can all possibly boils down to interpretation of just what is canon, or can be used as canon, in b5..

as for other planet shattering capability in the b5 universe.. yes it does exist, .. as shown by the destruction of zhadum...

[Enlightenment]

Is this the way all B5 debates go?

<voice of Kosh>Yes.</voice of kosh>

How is anything supposed to get done with all of this useless semantic nitpicking, obsession over nuances of interpretation of hidden meaning behind dialogue, etc?

Rabid Fivers are a bizzare breed. Tempered by a canon whose creator takes pride in misleading and undermining his audience, Fivers are presented with a canon where even the slightest nuance could be significant but usually isn't. They have no choice but to argue semantics as such arguments have been key to trying to guess which plot path won't be undermined next.

Rabid fivers are indeed a lot like biblical inerrantists. Presented with a very large, complex and internally contradictory canon, they do not take the rational path and acknowledge the inconsistances. Rather, they dogmatically insist that every part of the canon is absolute divine truth. While the mental gymnastics involved are a deeply ammusing, they tend to significanfly complicate all attempts to subject B5 to a rational assessment.




(This flame brought to you by the B5 plot hater's guild.)

[adam warlock]

Rabid Fivers are a bizzare breed. Tempered by a canon whose creator takes pride in misleading and undermining his audience, Fivers are presented with a canon where even the slightest nuance could be significant but usually isn't. They have no choice but to argue semantics as such arguments have been key to trying to guess which plot path won't be undermined next.

Rabid fivers are indeed a lot like biblical inerrantists. Presented with a very large, complex and internally contradictory canon, they do not take the rational path and acknowledge the inconsistances. Rather, they dogmatically insist that every part of the canon is absolute divine truth. While the mental gymnastics involved are a deeply ammusing, they tend to significanfly complicate all attempts to subject B5 to a rational assessment.

hah hah.. funny stuff...
*sends hatemail to jms*

[Shadow WarChief]

All right enlightenment, since your part of the "B5 plot hater's guild", please oh please, point out these "contradictions" to me.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Rabid Fivers are a bizzare breed. Tempered by a canon whose creator takes pride in misleading and undermining his audience, Fivers are presented with a canon where even the slightest nuance could be significant but usually isn't. They have no choice but to argue semantics as such arguments have been key to trying to guess which plot path won't be undermined next.

What you're describing are plot twists, not how technical information is being presented on B5. There's a big difference.

Rabid fivers are indeed a lot like biblical inerrantists. Presented with a very large, complex and internally contradictory canon, they do not take the rational path and acknowledge the inconsistances. Rather, they dogmatically insist that every part of the canon is absolute divine truth. While the mental gymnastics involved are a deeply ammusing, they tend to significanfly complicate all attempts to subject B5 to a rational assessment.

Resorting to insults now? Is this what you do whenever someone defends a show you don't like? Are you hoping labels like 'rabid fivers' and comparisons with 'biblical inerrantists' will discredit anyone using canon information to prove a point? Try to actually debate the issue instead of slinging mud or face losing your credibility.

[Durandal]

The size of Alderaan wasn't indicative either, but we all assume it was approximately the size of Earth anyway.

We don't blindly leap to that conclusion. We say it's roughly Earth-sized because it can support human life, and it looked a lot like Earth.

[Enlightenment]

please oh please, point out these "contradictions" to me.

The issues surrounding the VPK have already been mentioned in this thread.

The various start points, end points, and durations given for the E-M war.

The differences in capabilities of the the victim races before and after the Shadow war. This point alone breaks down into a shipload of subissues.

The differences in the power of the FOs in the mainline series, Crusade, and in printed sources.

IIRC there are a few unresolved issues regarding differences in the SPK between ACtA and the main series, but I can't vouch for this as I never bothered to watch Crusade.

In the interests of not picking nits I'll ignore the magically variable sizes of the White Star and Sharlin classes...

If you want more examples, you'll have to dig your way through Midwinter or the Google archives of rastbm.

[Shadow WarChief]

The issues surrounding the VPK have already been mentioned in this thread.

And addressed by myself and others

The various start points, end points, and durations given for the E-M war.

I've always found them to be consistant. Do you have any examples of this?

The differences in capabilities of the the victim races before and after the Shadow war. This point alone breaks down into a shipload of subissues.

Example?

The differences in the power of the FOs in the mainline series, Crusade, and in printed sources.

Example?

And besides, if you say that B5 is a horrible series because they're more powerful in the EU than on the show, you're then bound to think Star Wars is a horrible series because they're more powerful in the EU with all them Galaxy Guns, world devestators, interdictors, sun crushers, eclipses, etc....

IIRC there are a few unresolved issues regarding differences in the SPK between ACtA and the main series, but I can't vouch for this as I never bothered to watch Crusade.

Ah, you mean the old "The frame-work was in hyperspace" issue? Personally, I've never found any evidence for it so I just ignored anyone who said it.

Is this the unresolved issue(s) you mean?

In the interests of not picking nits I'll ignore the magically variable sizes of the White Star and Sharlin classes...

And in the interesting of not picking nits I'll ignore the magically variable sizes of the Millenium falcon,

The point? Ship size screw ups are bound to happen in every sci-fi series. If you attack one for it then you attack them all

If you want more examples, you'll have to dig your way through Midwinter or the Google archives of rastbm.

I'll do that...

[Master of Ossus]

If, as the B5ers here are claiming, the VPK could destroy entire planets like the DS can, why would they need ATMOSPHERIC shuttles to help the survivors? If the planet was completely destroyed, there should not be enough atmosphere left either to support survivors or to severely affect starships that are attempting to evacuate the remaining people.

Simply saying that the Shadow Planet Killer drains energy and then concluding that the "Death Cloud" is made up of nanobots is ludicrously stupid. Think about it, the linoleum in my bathroom "drains energy" from my feet every time I walk in. Thermal energy from my feet is tranfered to the slightly cooler floor in my bathroom. It does not take a nanobot to drain energy. In fact, the use of nanobots for such a purpose would actually demonstrate stupidity, as nanobots are easily damaged by temperature variations. Simply using a very cold gas would be much less difficult. Also note that no permanent damage was done to the electrical systems of ships within the cloud, so this was not the result of an ionization attack or anything similar.

As for the theory that the Shadows were all the while capable of building better starships, I would point out that they knew the weakness of their design for at least a thousand years. After all, the Narn have no telepaths because the SHADOWS WIPED THEM OUT! This indicates that the Shadows were fully aware of the weakness of their battle crabs, but they found it easier to wipe out all telepaths in the younger races than it would have been to redesign their ships. This further indicates that, for one reason or another, they were incapable of designing less vulnerable ships.

Also, the "hybridization" theory that B5 continuously uses to make ships more powerful is just plain stupid. The idea that the humans could have helped the Minbari enough to create a hybrid starship that was more powerful than those the Minbari could create is just plain stupid, and its part of the rampant "one race+one race=better" idea that B5 continuously uses. I won't pretend that technology is completely linear, I won't pretend that technology is a question of having something or not, I won't even pretend that there aren't any fields of science in which the humans are ahead of the Minbari, but to believe that the humans are advanced enough to significantly aid the Minbari in ship design is just stupid. Clearly the Minbari ships are far more advanced than the EA ships, and clearly the EA did not have the ability to match Minbari ships in sensors, weapons, propulsion, protection, or crew-support. These are the factors that go into designing a warship, and EA has little or nothing over the Minbari in any of these. By extension, claiming that the White Star is better than Vorlon ships because the Minbari helped to design it is equally idiotic. The White Star is a very good starship, but it would be folly to assume it could hold up to a Vorlon cruiser or a shadow battle crab.

[Crossover_Maniac]

If, as the B5ers here are claiming, the VPK could destroy entire planets like the DS can, why would they need ATMOSPHERIC shuttles to help the survivors? If the planet was completely destroyed, there should not be enough atmosphere left either to support survivors or to severely affect starships that are attempting to evacuate the remaining people.

If you listen to the entire broadcast, you'd know they weren't talking about evacuating planets attacked by the VPK, they were talking about the planets for the refugees were being targeted. The only planet that Ivanova said was actually attacked in the broadcast was Tizino Prime and three other planets accepting refugees. They knew that the refugee worlds were being targeted and evacuated them.

Simply saying that the Shadow Planet Killer drains energy and then concluding that the "Death Cloud" is made up of nanobots is ludicrously stupid. Think about it, the linoleum in my bathroom "drains energy" from my feet every time I walk in. Thermal energy from my feet is tranfered to the slightly cooler floor in my bathroom. It does not take a nanobot to drain energy. In fact, the use of nanobots for such a purpose would actually demonstrate stupidity, as nanobots are easily damaged by temperature variations. Simply using a very cold gas would be much less difficult. Also note that no permanent damage was done to the electrical systems of ships within the cloud, so this was not the result of an ionization attack or anything similar.

Non-issue. Who cares if it was nano-bots or an exotic gas, the SPK was draining the YR ships of power.

As for the theory that the Shadows were all the while capable of building better starships, I would point out that they knew the weakness of their design for at least a thousand years.

And all SW ships are vulerable to ion cannons and unable to redesign their ships to make them less vulerable. What's your point? A man living in a glass house shouldn't throw rocks.

Also, the "hybridization" theory that B5 continuously uses to make ships more powerful is just plain stupid. The idea that the humans could have helped the Minbari enough to create a hybrid starship that was more powerful than those the Minbari could create is just plain stupid, and its part of the rampant "one race+one race=better" idea that B5 continuously uses. I won't pretend that technology is completely linear, I won't pretend that technology is a question of having something or not, I won't even pretend that there aren't any fields of science in which the humans are ahead of the Minbari, but to believe that the humans are advanced enough to significantly aid the Minbari in ship design is just stupid. Clearly the Minbari ships are far more advanced than the EA ships, and clearly the EA did not have the ability to match Minbari ships in sensors, weapons, propulsion, protection, or crew-support. These are the factors that go into designing a warship, and EA has little or nothing over the Minbari in any of these. By extension, claiming that the White Star is better than Vorlon ships because the Minbari helped to design it is equally idiotic. The White Star is a very good starship, but it would be folly to assume it could hold up to a Vorlon cruiser or a shadow battle crab.

The White Stars are a product of Minbari and Vorlon technology. And it's not the hybridization that made it stronger. Just look at the White Star fight with the Shadow capital ship as opposed to the battle between the Vorlon and Shadow vessels. The White Star couldn't face a Shadow ship in a straight fight. They had to overload a jumpgate and sucker the Shadow vessel to come out of hyperspace next to it. Now, compare this to the Vorlon vs. the Shadows: the Vorlon actually were beating the Shadows in direct combat. If your hybridization theory was true, the roles should have been reversed. The White Star were to the Minbari was the Stinger missiles were to the armies of Afghanistan during their war with the Soviet Union in the 1980's or selling our weapons and fighter planes to other countries. There was no hybridization that combined the best features of both tech, but a nation of superior technology giving another nation with lesser technology a head's up because both nations had a common enemy.

[Smiling Bandit]

On the other hand, how could even the Mimbari make those things, much less repair them? We could give 20 space shutttles to afganistan, but it wouldn't give them space flight capability.

And all SW ships are vulerable to ion cannons and unable to redesign their ships to make them less vulerable. What's your point? A man living in a glass house shouldn't throw rocks.

But I no other ship design is at all vulnerable, at least none shown on the show, including the Shadow's own allies. Given that the Shadow ships did not show superior capabilities to the Vorlons, and in most cases a fleet was not exceptionally strong compare to a larger fleet of ostensibly weaker ships without that vulnerability, one must wonder why their ships had that weakness in the first place. From a purely military angle, it seems highly illogical. [/Spock] Either there was a special utility not shown, or the Shadows did something odd when designig their ships.

In SW, ion cannons are a vulnerability of *all* ships by virtue of the electonics used. Nobody has a better replacement system. Now, had the Empire used a system vulnerable to ion cannons, which offered no advantage commensurate to the disadvantage, and the Rebels used a vastly superior system at no additional cost, then I would wonder.

[Crossover_Maniac]

On the other hand, how could even the Mimbari make those things, much less repair them? We could give 20 space shutttles to afganistan, but it wouldn't give them space flight capability.

The Minbari were the most advance of the young races, and had contact with the Vorlons for at least a thousand years. The Vorlons also gave the Minbari their FTL drive technology (jumpgates were left on purpose near other worlds so they would be found by the younger race in that star system, so there would already has some understanding of Vorlon technology).

And all SW ships are vulerable to ion cannons and unable to redesign their ships to make them less vulerable. What's your point? A man living in a glass house shouldn't throw rocks.

But I no other ship design is at all vulnerable, at least none shown on the show, including the Shadow's own allies. Given that the Shadow ships did not show superior capabilities to the Vorlons, and in most cases a fleet was not exceptionally strong compare to a larger fleet of ostensibly weaker ships without that vulnerability, one must wonder why their ships had that weakness in the first place. From a purely military angle, it seems highly illogical. [/Spock] Either there was a special utility not shown, or the Shadows did something odd when designig their ships.

My theory is since Shadow tech is organic-based and their ships are actually alive, this would give them a vulerability of telepaths that can affect the minds of other living things, and even those with limited telepathic abilities like Talia Winters can scan non-telepaths. Even the Vorlons are weary of their own creations (the Vorlons mucked around with YR genomes to produce telepaths and no doubt for the purpose of attacking Shadow vessels).

In SW, ion cannons are a vulnerability of *all* ships by virtue of the electonics used. Nobody has a better replacement system. Now, had the Empire used a system vulnerable to ion cannons, which offered no advantage commensurate to the disadvantage, and the Rebels used a vastly superior system at no additional cost, then I would wonder.

I think it's the same thing with the Old Ones tech.

[seanrobertson]

I don't believe a probe was sent to the planet to confirm destruction.
What DID happen was that Ivonova asked CnC to monitor that sector for transmissions. She then reported that the planet was destroyed.
But then we learn that the Vorlons "blanket all frequencies" before they attack. So, B5 CnC wouldn't have gotten any transmissions from the planet when the Vorlons showed up, or afterwards because everyone was dead.

Jefe, ?Que eso Yayo? LOL. (Inside joke.)

Remember, Brian, frequencies are blanketed because the "Vorlons
want to silence the people in near-orbit of the planet, who escape
JUST prior to the globe being shattered."

At least, that's the traditional Babylon Five fanatic's excuse.

Then, we learn that the VPK left "survivors on the ground." That statement has been debated as much as any other in B5 canon. What is so difficult to understand about it? Ivonova said that survivors reported massive destruction on a planetary scale. There goes the stupid idea that they later wanted to evacuate these people from worlds they had evacuated to. If they had already evacuated, how did they know about the massive destruction???

Heh...they "must've seen it from afar." I've never actually *heard*
that excuse, but I'm sure it'll be made in some form or another.

The whole notion of someone who's capable of escaping an attack
from a planet-killer needing "rescuing" is retarded. It begs a huge
number of assumptions (read: EXCUSES) that are simply unbecoming
of ANYONE familiar with that pesky logical/scientific mindset.

Ivonova said they needed medical ships. There goes the stupid idea that they later wanted to evacuate these people from worlds they had evacuated to. If they had evacuated before the attack, why do they need medical ships? After a flood, do you send in the ambulances to the peope who ran for higher ground before the waters peaked???

The excuses I've heard from this one usually have something
to do with the escaping ships' limited resources and the so-called
"survivors" suffering NOT from physical maladies, but such things
as shell-shock.

Said again, *excuses*.

The word "survivor" means that they survived the attack. She didn't say they needed help moving refugees!
They had to "evacuate survivors from the ground ." She also talked about refugees, but at this moment she was talking about the survivors on the ground.
And Ivonova told people to wait for clearance to return to a planet after an attack. Why would they want to go back if the planet wasn't there???

Again, the *excuse* is that the people simply wish to return to
look at the rocks that might be their former home; or, better yet,
that these people will return to go to other planets in an attacked
system (nevermind the insane improbability that more than one planet/
system will be even REMOTELY inhabitable).

Yes, there was an asteroid field, *in another episode*. That asteroid field was not the remains of a planet. The rocks were moving much too slowly the have achieved escape velocity from a planet.

Yep.

Wait until someone comes along and tries to Red Herring this into
an issue of the "likelihood of asteroid fields being near attacked
planets."

Guys, no matter how much you want it, the evidence shows that the VPK does not destroy all life on a planet. And since some people wanted to return to their planet, the VPK doesn't make the planet uninhabitable.

Exactly.

W. Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[His Divine Shadow]

Ah, hello there sean!

[adam warlock]

Remember, Brian, frequencies are blanketed because the "Vorlons
want to silence the people in near-orbit of the planet, who escape
JUST prior to the globe being shattered."

At least, that's the traditional Babylon Five fanatic's excuse.

are u referring to the recording made by those who escaped the destruction of ventradi iii.

vorlons blanketing all frequencies, for whatever purposes, is actually irrelevant, and falls into the deep end of "just in case".

Heh...they "must've seen it from afar." I've never actually *heard*
that excuse, but I'm sure it'll be made in some form or another.

The whole notion of someone who's capable of escaping an attack
from a planet-killer needing "rescuing" is retarded. It begs a huge
number of assumptions (read: EXCUSES) that are simply unbecoming
of ANYONE familiar with that pesky logical/scientific mindset.

the first.. how do u think the ventradi people managed to record the vorlon fleet approach..

the second. unless of course the worlds populance determined the vorlons approach and already evacuated before the vorlons got within good vicinity.. and travelled to one of the safe havens listed, which later became targeted by the vpk+fleet. note.. the word survivor not being used in susan ivanovas first report....now again how was the recording made if the ventradi people didnt have to "survive" through the planet killer, and be regarded as survivors in a stricter sense INSTEAD of refugees.

Again, the *excuse* is that the people simply wish to return to
look at the rocks that might be their former home;

why not.. people have been motivated by less than sentimentalilism.. ie. curiostiy.. how many people do you think went to see the remains of the WTC, just after it was destroyed.. or even returning now, even though the all rubble has been cleared away. Id know id return to the area my home resided in, iif something similar happened to it.. out of both sentimentalilism and curiosity.

Wait until someone comes along and tries to Red Herring this into
an issue of the "likelihood of asteroid fields being near attacked
planets."

near or not.. canon.. vorlon pk+fleet seen going through field of asteroids.

Exactly.

explain arkada7.. though i remember you already conceeding to that being shattered..

[adam warlock]

*grumble at edit thing.. need more coffee*

[Master of Ossus]

The Vorlon Planet Killer can clearly not destroy a planet in the traditional sense of the word. Hospital ships are not needed for treating "shell shock," and indeed there is little that CAN be done about problems like that without long periods of rehabilitation. In any case, the fact that there ARE survivors who could record the approach of a VPK also indicates that for unknown reasons the VPK could not jump into the system within range of the planet (this is also confirmed by the aborted attack on Centauri Prime). The fact that SW ships can be disabled by ion cannons is irrelevant. SW ships cannot be immune to ion cannons because they use electronics. It is impossible to make electronics immune to ions, you can only shield them from such attacks. The SW ship vulnerability to ion cannon fire is caused by physical limitations. The fact that the Shadows could not modify their ships to protect them from telepaths indicates that they have also run into this problem. Thus the statement that the Shadows would have been able to construct a ship immune to telepaths was incorrect.

I have no idea why you objected to the fact that I said that the DC was not necessarily made up of nanobots when it was SPECIFICALLY stated by another poster that it was. I was attacking that claim, as did several other posters.

Adam, would you go to visit an area that was actually fairly dangerous (asteroids) out of curiosity? Would you attempt to rescue people that had already escaped? Would you define a "survivor" of Pearl Harbor as someone who was living in the United States during 1941? Is a "survivor" of Hiroshima anyone who was living in Japan at the time? A survivor, in this case, is someone who has been directly affected by an attack and lived through it. Your excuses are outlandish and unlikely. Occam's Razor dictates which solution we should believe.

[adam warlock]

The Vorlon Planet Killer can clearly not destroy a planet in the traditional sense of the word. ........ In any case, the fact that there ARE survivors who could record the approach of a VPK also indicates that for unknown reasons the VPK could not jump into the system within range of the planet (this is also confirmed by the aborted attack on Centauri Prime).

thing is we have no idea about the way a vpk executes its primary function, and the sizes of the planet destroyed.... but it is however (using evidence from ivanovas and lytas contributions to the discussion at the end of "the summoning") capable of doing so... unless youre telling me that they didnt send a probe to check arkada 7, when ivanova clearly ordered one to check around that area it resided in..

Adam, would you go to visit an area that was actually fairly dangerous (asteroids) out of curiosity? Would you attempt to rescue people that had already escaped?

if i was curious enough yes. if the was very attached to the place, and it held a lot of sentimental value to me.. yes..

rescue people that have already escaped?.. refugees who escaped their homes destruction, and lead to territories being used as safe havens... safe havens that later become targets of vorlons.. yes clear example of people that need to be, evacuated even though they escaped before...

the term rescue wasnt used in susan ivanovas second report.. so that takes away the theory that they were going to rescue anyone on safe havens that have been attacked by the vorlons...given what happened to arkada 7.
Reports of mass destruction wouldve likely come from those who just managed to escape and witnessed it..or have escaped long before and used a means to see the destruction the vorlon wrought, when the vorlon jamming was no longer present... ..

your excuses are outlandish and unlikely. Occam's Razor dictates which solution we should believe.

tell me.. what does occams razor dictate with regards to what happened to arkada7...using what evidence put forth by susan ivanova's and cncs' investigation.. and what lyta added?
theres also official info from the official b5 chronology, season 4: no surrender, no retreat, and b5wars that states vpk to be capable of planet shattering destruction..
if youre also thinking that shadows and vorlons in general, through any means, are incapable of shattering planets.. watch the season 4 epidsode "epiphanies"..

[Novan]

Date: 23 Nov 1996 18:43:25 -0700
From: J. Michael Straczynski <71016.1644@compuserve.com>
To: gopher <75410.177@compuserve.com>
Subject: Questioning...

gopher <75410.177@compuserve.com> asks:
> 1) Are the Shadows motives really (at least) what we've learned
> so far (chaos, evolution, what do you want)? 2) Are the Vorlons
> motives really (at least) what we've learned so far (order,
> evolution, who are you)? 3) Did the Vorlons actually destroy the
> planet mentioned in Summoning? 4) Do the Vorlons really want to
> wipe out all the worlds touched by the Shadows, and ultimately
> eliminate the Shadows all together? 5) Is Lorien really a
> different "thing" than Shadows or Vorlons/Koshs? 6) Is there more
> to the Minbari working caste than we've learned so far?

Yes to all of them.

jms

[Dead on Arrival]

Link for the above excerpt, because I had never seen it before either...

[Crossover_Maniac]

Link for the above excerpt, because I had never seen it before either...

Is this what you were looking for: http://lists.cs.columbia.edu/pipermail/ ... 02086.html.