Idiot on the Beginning of the Universe

[Slartibartfast]

In a different forum, a thread that was about who actually discovered America (not the country nicknamed "America", but the continent), and somebody came up with this:

As for your 2nd para, Depends whether you believe in Creation or evolution, archaelogical evidence has shown us alot more about Creation than you are probably aware. If you don't believe me, look on the net and type Patrick Wyatt and Johnathan Gray. If you want more information look up both of them.

I replied with this:

One believes Creation. One understands Evolution.

It went on like this:

Maybe if you read some of Johnathan Gray's or Patrick Wyatts books you will get some more understanding.

There are some questions that need to be answered.
Is the physical world infinite, if so, what are we doing here? What is the point(meaning) of existence?
If not then how did it start, HOW CAN nothing(the absence of matter) become something(matter). Clearly, it is NOT possible to create matter from the absence of matter. That's why many look toward Divine Power.

(emphasis his)

LOL

There was never *nothing*, since the Universe didn't exist before the BB, time didn't either. There is no "before".

If there was never nothing(absence of matter), what was there? If the universe didn't exist before the BB? what was there?

There is no BEFORE. The beginning of the Universe is exactly that: the beginning. The entire mass/energy of the Universe comprised in a single point. Space AND time are both properties of the Universe itself. Asking what was BEFORE the Universe is not different from asking what did the WHEEL look like before it was invented

Am I approaching this the wrong way? What would be the perfect reply so there's no doubt (assuming the other person has a brain) that I'm correct?

BTW, I wrote "Someone" so as not to disclose the nick, but I realized that his nick IS "Someone"

[LadyTevar]

...... How'd you go from "Who discovered America" to Creationism in the first place...?

[Slartibartfast]

If your talking about Europeans, then I'm not sure. But the natives of South America are probably the first to find the Americas, mainly because they would travel there first during the Pangea.

I believe the Pangea was a bit early for humans. As I recall, humans supposedly walked over the Bering straights during the ice age.

Whoops, I forgot, Pagea was too early, they would have probably migrated afterward via Siberia-Alaska into South America after.

As for your 2nd para, Depends whether you believe in Creation or evolution, archaelogical evidence has shown us alot more about Creation than you are probably aware. If you don't believe me, look on the net and type Patrick Wyatt and Johnathan Gray. If you want more information look up both of them.

[Slartibartfast]

Now I got this

Now you're talking about things you don't know, Groovy, for even science does not know 'what' was before the big bang. And just like all sensible human beings I too refuse to believe that there was nothing. That's would be just as ridiculous as what atheists say about creationism.

Good day, sir.

Oh, and for the people interested in these things, search for Lee Smoling and the Living Cosmos for once to find some interesting theory about the universe as a evolving system.

This is the forum, by the way:

http://www. the-underdogs.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=396824#396824

[Zoink]

To discuss anything outside the bounds of the universe using temporal relationships (eg. A causes B, A is before B, A is 5 second long) requires the existence of a universal time dimension existing outside the universe or a shared time dimension.... which we have no evidence for. There *might* be such a thing, but like God, the easter bunny, and invisible elves, we no reason to assume it does.

If you existed just after the big bang, say one plank second, you would "see" that in the previous instant the universe would have been so small that time and space would not have meaning.

[Darth Servo]

As for your 2nd para, Depends whether you believe in Creation or evolution, archaelogical evidence has shown us alot more about Creation than you are probably aware. If you don't believe me, look on the net and type Patrick Wyatt and Johnathan Gray. If you want more information look up both of them.

Big fat appeal to authority fallacy.

[Slartibartfast]

To discuss anything outside the bounds of the universe using temporal relationships (eg. A causes B, A is before B, A is 5 second long) requires the existence of a universal time dimension existing outside the universe or a shared time dimension.... which we have no evidence for. There *might* be such a thing, but like God, the easter bunny, and invisible elves, we no reason to assume it does.

If you existed just after the big bang, say one plank second, you would "see" that in the previous instant the universe would have been so small that time and space would not have meaning.

Maybe I'll post exactly that, if you don't mind?

[Darth Wong]

Simply ask this moron to prove his underlying claim that there was a time where nothing existed.

[Slartibartfast]

I think he'll just miss the point, because he explicitly says that he can't believe that "there was a time where nothing existed", therefore "something" existed. He'll just dodge the issue of "time" since that's what they (it's not just a "he" anymore) have been doing so far.

[ClaysGhost]

I like these:

There are some questions that need to be answered.
Is the physical world infinite

No, it's about 12,800km across, har har. Well, we can answer that one now, in that it looks like the universe is unbounded and infinite in extent.

... if so, what are we doing here?

So if it isn't infinite, we wouldn't need to know what we're doing here?

What is the point(meaning) of existence?

That's a matter for philosophy, surely, not for a physical theory.

If not then how did it start, HOW CAN nothing(the absence of matter) become something(matter). Clearly, it is NOT possible to create matter from the absence of matter. That's why many look toward Divine Power.

Just pushes the issue back a step for these people. Where did God come from? Surely if they're worried about the beginning of the universe, they should be equally worried about the beginning of God.

[Baron Scarpia]

I suggest doing some research on Gray and Wyatt (It's Ron Wyatt, not "Patrick"). Their nonsense has been refuted a long time ago.

[Wicked Pilot]

Asking what happened before the Big Bang is like asking what's North of the North Pole.

[Zoink]

Maybe I'll post exactly that, if you don't mind?

That's cool. You can post anything I say without credit. I'm not an astrophysicist so this is simply my understanding of the situation given the facts I've been presented.

[Zoink]

I think he'll just miss the point, because he explicitly says that he can't believe that "there was a time where nothing existed", therefore "something" existed. He'll just dodge the issue of "time" since that's what they (it's not just a "he" anymore) have been doing so far.

He's partially right: it is hard to imagine because your brain isn't equiped to easily visualize anything but 3 dimensions "flowing" in a 4th time dimension.

He'll probably do exactly that no matter what you say. People tend to think of time as a constant (ie. exists "outside" the universe), just like the universe's "empty" space is universal, and that the big bang was matter being "created" in that empty space.

You'll have to break that mental image, but I don't think that's easy to do.

[Slartibartfast]

ARG, THE HUMANITY!!!

Now I've got some moron that says that not believing that there was something (because there is no evidence) is as bad as fucking blindly believing that there MUST be something! AND BECAUSE YOU CAN'T TELL EITHER WAY THEN WE'RE BOTH WRONG!!!

So I quote Mike's text on "BURDEN OF PROOF" and he just says that I QUOTE STUFF BECAUSE IT MAKES ME FEEL SMARTER!!!!!!

Like I have to do that to feel smarter than him!

[Slartibartfast]

In case someone wants to lend me a hand trying to hammer some sense into that thick head of his, feel free to do so and I will appreciate it... just try not to use overly brusque insults. Thanks