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The godfather of the neocons on ... neocons.

Post by Vympel »

Link from the neocon publication

Commentary:

Neoconservatism Made Kristol Clear

by Michael Tennant
Memo to Irving Kristol: Get yourself to a secure, undisclosed location immediately if not sooner. You are in grave danger. No, you needn’t worry about receiving threats from left-wing loonies like Al Gore or his disciple, the Unabomber. You don’t even have to fear the paleoconservatives and libertarians. You should, however, keep your eyes open for members of the National Review/Wall Street Journal crowd. IMPORTANT: If you receive a package in the mail from David Frum, call the bomb squad immediately!

Why do I say Irving Kristol had better keep a close eye on his allies on the “official” right? Simply this: He recently wrote a piece for The Weekly Standard in which he spelled out exactly what neoconservatism is. What’s worse is that ol’ Irv’s description of neoconservatism proves that it is everything its critics have said it is—and worse.

Now that “the ‘godfather’ of all those neocons,” as Kristol describes himself, has spoken on the subject (and written a book entitled Neoconservatism: The Autobiography of an Idea), the NR/WSJ crowd can no longer plausibly deny the existence of such a movement, as some have tried to do. In addition, they can no longer plausibly claim that neoconservatism is merely another form of traditional conservatism. Nor can they plausibly insist that neoconservatism has anything at all to do with the American founding and tradition of limited government and avoidance of entangling alliances. Kristol has blown all these arguments out of the water.

Kristol first points out that neoconservatism had “its origin among disillusioned liberal intellectuals in the 1970s,” just in case anyone had any doubts about its ancestry. At this time the grassroots of the Republican Party, and indeed much of Middle America , was still largely wedded to the ideas of small government at home and a reasonably prudent foreign policy abroad. Barry Goldwater—who Kristol says is “politely overlooked” in the neocon pantheon of “20th-century heroes,” while FDR is included—had, after all, been the Republican presidential nominee in 1964; and Ronald Reagan, who at least espoused relatively conservative ideas even if he didn’t follow through on most of them once in office, was to be elected president in 1980. In other words, neocon ideas were not the ideas of the mainstream right at the time, and their prospects weren’t even looking very bright.

So, says Kristol, “one can say that the historical task and political purpose of neoconservatism would seem to be this: to convert the Republican party, and American conservatism in general, against their respective wills, into a new kind of conservative politics suitable to governing a modern democracy.” It’s easy to see the liberal—and, indeed, Straussian, as Kristol claims Leo Strauss as one of the forerunners of neoconservatism—mind at work here. We, the enlightened ones, will “convert” you, the unenlightened, from your backward, parochial ways to our progressive, global ways; and we will do so against your will, by deception if possible, by force if necessary.

The only genuinely conservative idea Kristol attributes to the neocons is an affinity for “cutting tax rates.” Even there, however, Kristol hedges. It’s not that “the particularities of tax cuts . . . interested” the neocons, and it certainly isn’t the case that they view tax cuts as a moral imperative. They are interested in tax cuts only insofar as those cuts “stimulate steady economic growth,” presumably so the natives do not become restless when their bread and circuses peter out and start clamoring for the emperor’s head. Kristol notes that the neocon “emphasis on economic growth” has led to “an attitude toward public finance that is far less risk averse than is the case among more traditional conservatives.” “Neocons,” he adds, “would prefer not to have large budget deficits, but it is in the nature of democracy [and here he may be onto something] . . . that one sometimes must shoulder budgetary deficits as the cost (temporary, one hopes) of pursuing economic growth.” In other words, to heck with the future! Open the floodgates of the treasury while at the same time reducing the revenues coming in, and don’t worry about how your children and grandchildren are going to pay the bills. What matters now is economic growth to keep the sheeple fat, dumb, and happy so that we neocons can retain and expand our power at their expense.

In case what he has written thus far has still failed to convince the reader that neoconservatism is merely a variant on liberalism, Kristol then opens up both barrels with his description of the neocon view of the state. “Neocons do not like the concentration of services in the welfare state and are happy to study [note that he doesn’t say implement] alternative ways of delivering these services. But they are impatient with the Hayekian notion that we are on ‘the road to serfdom.’ Neocons do not feel that kind of alarm or anxiety about the growth of the state in the past century, seeing it as natural, indeed inevitable.” Why, really, should they be alarmed? The state is their god, and they derive their power from expanding its reach. As far as Kristol is concerned, the “19th-century idea” of government as the enemy of human freedom “was a historical eccentricity.” Here again one can see the Marxist mind of “former” liberals at work: The total state is inevitable, so why fight it? Accept it, enjoy it, and get as much as you can out of it. Stop fretting about lost liberty. As a result, “[n]eocons feel at home in today’s America to a degree that more traditional conservatives do not.”

Now for the big subject of the day: “foreign policy, the area of American politics where neoconservatism has recently been the focus of media attention,” as Kristol puts it. That, of course, is because neocon foreign policy is exemplified by precisely the foreign policy that the Bush administration has implemented, contrary to Bush’s paean to a “humbler” foreign policy while campaigning. It seeks to dominate the world at any cost, sending troops to far-flung countries ( Afghanistan , Iraq , Liberia ) in pursuit of, well, hegemony, in the guise of bringing liberation and democracy to the oppressed of the world. It is completely contrary to the vision of the Founding Fathers and to the American tradition, which is why it had to be imposed on us against our will as well.

Kristol claims that “there is no set of neoconservative beliefs concerning foreign policy, only a set of attitudes derived from historical experience.” He lists three “theses” guiding neocon foreign policy and adds, parenthetically, “as a Marxist would say.” (The apple certainly doesn’t fall far from the tree. Does it, Irving ?) Those three theses—that patriotism is a good thing, that world government is a bad thing, and that statesmen should be able to distinguish friends from enemies—seem relatively harmless. To be fair, Kristol is right in saying that there are no core principles behind neocon foreign policy because these three “theses” seem to have little or nothing to do with the paragraphs that follow.

Essentially, neocon foreign policy is that might makes right. Oh, Kristol doesn’t come right out and say this, but his words add up to the same thing. For “a great power,” he writes, “the ‘national interest’ is not a geographical term.” That is, U.S. foreign policy should not be confined to safeguarding the territorial United States . Oh, no. We must be concerned with the entire world. “A larger nation has more extensive interests. And large nations, whose identity is ideological, like the Soviet Union of yesteryear and the United States of today, inevitably have ideological interests in addition to more material concerns.” Yes, according to Irving Kristol, neocon foreign policy applies equally to the Soviet Union and the United States, both of whom have (or had, in the case of the Soviets) “ideological interests” which trump mere territorial concerns. Kristol further notes that since the U.S. “will always feel obliged to defend . . . a democratic nation under attack from nondemocratic forces,” the neocons thus “feel it necessary to defend Israel today.” Apparently only the holding of elections, not what those elected governments’ policies are, matters to neocons, and even then they’re more than willing to give some leeway to cooperative dictators. Once again, I must give Kristol credit for being accurate in his assessment that no central principles (other than the one left unmentioned, spelled p-o-w-e-r) guide the neocons in their quest for “national greatness” (as Kristol’s equally arrogant son, William, put it). It’s clear, though, that this power-grubbing, world-dominating foreign policy is certainly not in the interest of the average American, which is why he has to be converted against his will by the neocons.

Kristol continues to celebrate the power of the U. S. , and he notes that “[w]ith power come responsibilities, whether sought or not, whether welcome or not. And it is a fact that if you have the kind of power we now have, either you will find opportunities to use it, or the world will discover them for you.” The neocons, of course, are not content to let the world find uses for the power they’ve worked so hard to achieve. As a matter of fact, they’re more than happy to “find opportunities to use it.” Whether those “opportunities” are in the best interest of the country or the world is irrelevant; all that matters is that the neocons are the ones finding the opportunities and wielding the power.

Finally, in case any doubt remains as to whether the Bush administration qualifies as neoconservative—and there are still some out there who believe it remains fully within the American conservative tradition—Kristol puts all doubt to rest. Bush and his administration, he says, “turn out to be quite at home in this new political environment, although it is clear they did not anticipate this role any more than their party as a whole did.” Face it, says Kristol: We’ve won, and you traditional conservatives in the Republican Party never saw it coming and still don’t know what hit you. Unfortunately, he’s right.
Personally, I don't give a toss on the whole Liberal vs Conservative thing that goes on in America, but it is kinda interesting.
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Post by CelesKnight »

Personally, I don't give a toss on the whole Liberal vs Conservative thing that goes on in America, but it is kinda interesting.
You're from Australia, correct? How does politics work there?
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Post by Vympel »

CelesKnight wrote:
You're from Australia, correct? How does politics work there?
It's more laid-back. Our conservatives are called the Liberal Party (go figure) and our liberals are called the Labor Party (more sense), but you won't find the degree of hyperventilating distate for the other side of the spectrum that I seem to see in American 'popular' culture- classic, if extreme, example: Ann Coulter books. You'll never see an Australian political commentator write a book talking about how the other side are a bunch of traitors.

Noone really cares who you vote for here. I suspect that's true in America as well, and well, for us voting is compulsory, but I was basically referring to that above, and also the various schools of thought within the political parties- i.e. the battle in between the 'paleoconservatives' and 'neoconservatives' within the GOP. That sort of thing just isn't an issue here. Might be because our political landscape is so much smaller.
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Post by Knife »

Noone really cares who you vote for here. I suspect that's true in America as well, and well, for us voting is compulsory, but I was basically referring to that above, and also the various schools of thought within the political parties- i.e. the battle in between the 'paleoconservatives' and 'neoconservatives' within the GOP. That sort of thing just isn't an issue here. Might be because our political landscape is so much smaller.
I would assume that because of the parlamentry system, all or most views are represented by a party for that view. While in the US, the two partys represent a coglomorate of various views sometimes in conflict. IMO anyway.

Truely only about 40% iirc, are hard core party fellows. The rest vote and don't give a shit who someone else votes for.
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Post by Vympel »

Knife wrote: I would assume that because of the parlamentry system, all or most views are represented by a party for that view. While in the US, the two partys represent a coglomorate of various views sometimes in conflict. IMO anyway.
Good point, totally forgot about that- in fact, both of the major parties have a caucus system (the Liberal Party is more de facto, they don't have one by name but they do in practice) where you MUST tow the line.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

I couldn't comprehend it that much, but what Kristol is trying to say is that most "neo-conservatives" aren't conservatives at all, just liberals who have adopted conservative ideas??

To me, it seems slightly that Kristol is thinking "Some neoconservatives have views I don't like and I'll just dissociate from those by classifying them as quasi-liberals".
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Post by CelesKnight »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:I couldn't comprehend it that much, but what Kristol is trying to say is that most "neo-conservatives" aren't conservatives at all, just liberals who have adopted conservative ideas??

To me, it seems slightly that Kristol is thinking "Some neoconservatives have views I don't like and I'll just dissociate from those by classifying them as quasi-liberals".
I don't agree with his take on the neocons, but in all fairness, I do think that his arguement is more substantial than that. I think that it's more along the lines of "Neocons claim to be conservative, but reject too many fundamental aspects of conservatism. " Presumably with the implicit assumption that therefore they're not representing the rest of the conservatives, and so they should "wake up" and do something about it. It would be a little along the lines of "hey this guy claims to be a mainstream biology expert but rejects evolution! Maybe he's not a good person to be in change of the science ciriculum..." :twisted:
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Post by Darth Wong »

Politics in the US is not like politics in Canada or, I suspect, anywhere else. In the US, you decide to be either Republican or Democrat in your youth at some point, and you will stay that way until you die.

Mind you, if people challenge you, you will argue eloquently for whatever your party is doing right now (or if you that's hard to do right now, you will bash the holy fuck out of the other party). But the end result is still that people almost never change their affiliations in the US, which is why outside observers of US tend to feel as if there's a knee-jerk atmosphere in the nature of American political debate.

In other words, people in the US tend to argue politics by stating that their party is right (or at least more right than the other party) right off the bat, and then looking for rationaliations to back up that statement almost as an afterthought.
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Post by RedImperator »

Darth Wong wrote:Politics in the US is not like politics in Canada or, I suspect, anywhere else. In the US, you decide to be either Republican or Democrat in your youth at some point, and you will stay that way until you die.

Mind you, if people challenge you, you will argue eloquently for whatever your party is doing right now (or if you that's hard to do right now, you will bash the holy fuck out of the other party). But the end result is still that people almost never change their affiliations in the US, which is why outside observers of US tend to feel as if there's a knee-jerk atmosphere in the nature of American political debate.

In other words, people in the US tend to argue politics by stating that their party is right (or at least more right than the other party) right off the bat, and then looking for rationaliations to back up that statement almost as an afterthought.
That pretty much accurately describes about sixty percent of the electorate, with each party getting about half of that number. Since they largely cancel each other out, and can be counted on never to vote for the other party, they're largely irrevelant. It's the remaining forty percent who decide the elections, and their positions are all over the map and usually not bound by party loyalty (I call myself a Republican, but I'd probably vote Democrat if that party ever considered that I value my economic freedom as much as I do my social and political freedom).
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Post by CelesKnight »

RedImperator wrote: That pretty much accurately describes about sixty percent of the electorate, with each party getting about half of that number. Since they largely cancel each other out, and can be counted on never to vote for the other party, they're largely irrevelant. It's the remaining forty percent who decide the elections, {snip}
The party loyalists shouldn't be seen as irrelevent. While they can be counted on to not vote against their party, they can't always be counted on to vote for the party--the voters will just stay home if they think they're being ignored.
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Post by CelesKnight »

Darth Wong wrote:Politics in the US is not like politics in Canada or, I suspect, anywhere else. In the US, you decide to be either Republican or Democrat in your youth at some point, and you will stay that way until you die.
I thought that there were only 5 or 6 major Canadian parties. Do people tend to radically change their views more in Canada, or are there simply enough political parties so that as your views gradually change you find a slightly different party?
Mind you, if people challenge you, you will argue eloquently for whatever your party is doing right now (or if you that's hard to do right now, you will bash the holy fuck out of the other party).
:twisted: The latter is always a blast to watch!
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Post by RedImperator »

CelesKnight wrote:
RedImperator wrote: That pretty much accurately describes about sixty percent of the electorate, with each party getting about half of that number. Since they largely cancel each other out, and can be counted on never to vote for the other party, they're largely irrevelant. It's the remaining forty percent who decide the elections, {snip}
The party loyalists shouldn't be seen as irrelevent. While they can be counted on to not vote against their party, they can't always be counted on to vote for the party--the voters will just stay home if they think they're being ignored.
Yeah, they get a bone thrown their way every now and then. That's why they're only largely irrevelant, instead of completely irrevelant. It helps if the other side's extremists are being loud and stupid and scare your loyalists off their butts on election day.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

One problem is that many voters (I'd say 60-70%) treat political parties like Pittsburgh'ers treat the Steelers. We were born in this city, and thus we are going to wave our terrible towels (don't ask) no matter how much our football team is blowing this season. Likewise, people tend to be inherit politics from their parents or family or community and then that political party becomes their team, which they will root for compulsively even if their party is stinking at the moment and won't budge no matter what. If their party does something bad, they first brush it off as not a big deal (especially if it is), or dodges by pointing out something bad about some other party or point out something good about their party that is vaguely related to the issue... behavior that is identical to the football banter I hear from sports fans all the time. It's more about being part of the team and having the political theory du jour of that party acted upon, even if they care nothing about the issue or even if the action is a good idea. I know plenty of conservatives, for instance, who know nothing about guns, never have picked one up or fired one, or even like them... but they feel very very strongly about getting rid of gun control because it's the proper conservative belief to have, similar things for liberals.
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Post by Darth Wong »

CelesKnight wrote:I thought that there were only 5 or 6 major Canadian parties. Do people tend to radically change their views more in Canada, or are there simply enough political parties so that as your views gradually change you find a slightly different party?
There are some idiot party loyalists here too, but they are not particularly prominent. People are more willing to switch party allegiances (best example is the federal PC party, which controlled the government during Mulroney's reign but which was almost totally wiped out in the last federal election. Not enough party loyalists to even give it official opposition status, and it was dropped all the way back to an insignificant 2 seats.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Would compulsary voting be a good idea in the US?
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Post by CelesKnight »

General reply to Darth Wong, Gil Hamilton, and RedImperator. Ah, I see what you mean.

Specifically for Darth Wong:
Intellectually, I knew of cases where parties went from being the government to being insignificant very quickly, but I never really made the connection that that also meant that significant portions of their voters left them. Thanks. In the US, it's easy to imagine huge changes in a party's political power coming from relatively small changes in the number of voters.
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Post by CelesKnight »

HemlockGrey wrote:Would compulsary voting be a good idea in the US?
Doubt it. If it's actually enforced, I suspect that it would further reduce the elections from being about national goals to being about who has the flashier TV ads or promises the most beer and circuses.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

HemlockGrey wrote:Would compulsary voting be a good idea in the US?
Why exactly should we force people to vote? The country is suppose to stand for freedom among other things and that includes being able to chose to or not to exercise a right they're given. Anyway do you really want the opinion of some one who cares so little they must be forced to vote, to be counted?
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

CelesKnight wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:I couldn't comprehend it that much, but what Kristol is trying to say is that most "neo-conservatives" aren't conservatives at all, just liberals who have adopted conservative ideas??

To me, it seems slightly that Kristol is thinking "Some neoconservatives have views I don't like and I'll just dissociate from those by classifying them as quasi-liberals".
I don't agree with his take on the neocons, but in all fairness, I do think that his arguement is more substantial than that. I think that it's more along the lines of "Neocons claim to be conservative, but reject too many fundamental aspects of conservatism. "
In other words, he accuse most neo-conservatives of not being "true conservatives"? Ironically enough, it reminds me of the way Maoists accuse other left-wingers of not being "true socialists".
Presumably with the implicit assumption that therefore they're not representing the rest of the conservatives, and so they should "wake up" and do something about it. It would be a little along the lines of "hey this guy claims to be a mainstream biology expert but rejects evolution! Maybe he's not a good person to be in change of the science ciriculum..." :twisted:
I don't think they'd have that problem if there were more significant American conservative parties than just the Republicans. If there were more large parties than just The Big Two, a vast number of republicans disagreeing too much with the rest of the party would just break out and form a new party.
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Post by RedImperator »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:I don't think they'd have that problem if there were more significant American conservative parties than just the Republicans. If there were more large parties than just The Big Two, a vast number of republicans disagreeing too much with the rest of the party would just break out and form a new party.
Likely the Democrats would break up too, into a hard-left Social Democrat party and a socially conservative Labor party, with the centerist remnants joining the Republican centerists. Obviously, the Republicans would split into a neocon and paleocon party, with quite a few defections into the Libertarians and the rest joining the centerist Democrats.

To make it happen, though, you'd need to make numerous changes to the system, starting with rewriting the Constitution to recognize political parties.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

RedImperator wrote:To make it happen, though, you'd need to make numerous changes to the system, starting with rewriting the Constitution to recognize political parties.
So am I wrong, or is the Constitution isn't actually as perfect as some people think??
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Simon H.Johansen wrote:
RedImperator wrote:To make it happen, though, you'd need to make numerous changes to the system, starting with rewriting the Constitution to recognize political parties.
So am I wrong, or is the Constitution isn't actually as perfect as some people think??
I never said it was perfect (though I don't support amending it to create a multi-party system). Its most glaring error is a lack of specific protection of privacy, which the Framers never imagined anyone would need and the government is in no hurry to pass an amendment that would essentially tie its hands. Also, there have been a few misguided amendments which have produced some fucked up results (the sixteenth, creating the income tax, and the seventeenth, making Senators popularly elected) comes to mind.
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Post by CelesKnight »

Simon H.Johansen wrote: In other words, he accuse most neo-conservatives of not being "true conservatives"? Ironically enough, it reminds me of the way Maoists accuse other left-wingers of not being "true socialists".
Is your argument that it's wrong to point out that a group that claims to represent your party’s views allegedly aren’t doing so? I disagree with that. In politics, or American politics at least, that’s a valid claim if you have proof of it. As an example, lets imagine a Democratic candidate coming on TV and saying, "Oh, I'm a liberal, practically a green. Except I'm also a creationist; believe in the absolute greatness of the free market, except when heavy subsidies are needed for big business; believe in tax cuts, but only for the rich; am pro-life, except for criminals; love guns, except for in video games; think porno should be banned; hate foreigners and gays; and think that most national parks should be shut down and logged." Would it be wrong for someone to point out that the candidate isn't really a Democrat, and is probably too far to the right even for Ann Coulter?

Or is your argument that neocons *are* still conservatives. If that’s the case, then we agree. In my view, while the two groups differ on some policy issues, the differences are small enough that they are still the same party. Although, to be fair to the author, I suppose that this is a matter of perspective. To a liberal, I suppose ‘they all look the same to me.’ (Tics to indicate a joke, not a quote). To a neocon, the two camps look the same because when ideological disputes arise, allegedly the neocon side wins out so that person wouldn’t notice a problem. To a conservative who disagrees with major parts of the administrations policies, and who blames the disagreements on alleged neocon influence, of course the two camps would look very different.
Simon H.Johansen wrote: I don't think they'd have that problem if there were more significant American conservative parties than just the Republicans. If there were more large parties than just The Big Two, a vast number of republicans disagreeing too much with the rest of the party would just break out and form a new party.
It has happened before. IIRC, the Dixicrates spun off from the Dems 50 years ago, then became part of the Republican party. Far left Dems formed the Green party. Moderate conservatives spun off from both parties to form what became the Reform party, then that split into its current decaying corpse of parties. I may be wrong on some of these, 'cause I'm doing them all from vague memories. However, my point is that new parties form all the time--the US has literally hundreds of political parties that range from Commie to Nazi to Truck Driver Bob for Dogcatcher.

IMO, the underlying problem with the idea of disaffected party members forming a viable US third party is that there are no runoff elections, and you generally aren't required to have more than 50% of the vote to win. If a new conservatives party forms, the right of center vote is split while the left of centers are still voting as a block. This next example is controversial, but some argue that Bush Sr. would have won the '92 election if Perot wasn't taking so many moderately conservative votes (IIRC, he got like 20% of the total). I haven't heard any studies of this, but it's seems logical that given how close the 2000 election was, Al Gore would have been an undisputed winner if the core liberals weren't voting for Nader. The same probably goes for Bush Jr. if Pat B. wasn’t in the race; if for no other reason than that Bush could have spent more time appealing to centrists, and less keeping the conservative base happy.

As it stands, the US is probably destined to be a two party system for the foreseeable future. Short term aberrations will arise, and the parties may change with time, but for the most part there will be only two.
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CelesKnight
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Post by CelesKnight »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
RedImperator wrote:To make it happen, though, you'd need to make numerous changes to the system, starting with rewriting the Constitution to recognize political parties.
So am I wrong, or is the Constitution isn't actually as perfect as some people think??
I don't think that anyone seriously considers the Constitution to be perfect. If such was the case, it wouldn't need to have a clause allowing amendments would it? :o The people you're thinking of generally believe that the Constitution, while falable, is still one of the best in the world and worthly of the praise that it gets.

But on a serious note, IIRC, the Constitution itself wasn't originally designed with two parties in mind. That's why we have an electoral college--because with dozens of people in the race, it's possible that no one will get 50% of a popular vote; hence the states elect electors who can get together to hash out who will be president if there is a dispute or a three way tie. This actually seems quite farsighted to me. In 2000, Al Gore "won" the popular vote by something like 0.5%, and he had less than 50% of the vote. We all saw what Florida was like, so can you imagine the chaos of recounting an entire nation? Where corruption in any one overlooked place could tip the results? As it was, the problems were limited to Florida. And if either candidate had had a few thousand more votes there, the election would have been totally undisputed, regardless of who won the national popular vote or how close the national vote was.

IMO, the Constitution itself doesn't need much reworking for multiple parties. Statutes requiring run off elections could take care of that.
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