Moderator: NecronLord
Agents of Gaming's books are also canon, as stated by JMS himself in the intro to the Rules CompendiumCaptain Zod wrote:Antediluvian wrote:I assume Agent's of Gaming books will be allowed in this debate? They are canon, after all.
The show is canon. All else is non-canon.
Start spellchecker.Schmitty_Mgee wrote:START THINKING!!
Prove this, when Ivanova speaks about B5's main armament as a 200 MW pulse cannon.cappy zod u mustve been turned around somewhere. those 200 megawatt "big pulse cannons" those r located on the starfurries, u know those tiny assed FIGHTERS!
So? And if you use l33tspeak again on this board, I'll flame you to a crisp.and most of their "laser" systems r based on x-rays not accelerated light f00l.
That's not the issue, Schmitty. The issue is, can the main armament of B5 ships employ such weaknesses? They haven't done it on the show, AFAIK.and as my good friend solidsnake has already mentioned, physical armor has actually been proven to b better than ur trekkie energy shields. and by the way he will b back with more too(solidsnake that is). i mean comon the shields r frequency based! how stupid and pathetic is that?
But that's probably the biggest advantage that Starfleet has over the Earth Alliance: shields.SolidSnake wrote:Only the Earth Alliance and Narn use lasers, but its not the only thing they use. They also have these things called turrets, which can work idependantly. Starfleet's phasers like to go offline when only part of the array is hit. The phaser arrays present a big target across the saucer section. The nacelles are a big target too. Everything on SF ships are targets.
Excellent.SolidSnake wrote:C'mon in MoO.
But the quote was something that Londo did not directly see. It did not take place from his point of view. Had he said it, you would have had an argument, but the fact is that it was stated during the non-narrative portion of the story. He was not telling us that, we were watching what ahppened.About the 2MT Sharlin thing, Londo was wasted when he told that story.
Agreed, but ST shields would be able to take a pounding from B5 ships and still survive with their shields up. The energy required to knock them down is not commonly available to B5 races.Most Fed ships dont have armor, only uber-Voyager and the Defiant have armor. All other SF ships depend on sheilds that have a tendancy to drop when you need them.
True, although such a tactic requires spectacularly detailed and accurate intelligence reports. It would be extremely difficult to do such things during every battle. Note how the EA was unable to do this even once during its war with the Minbari. Note how the Narn never pulled this attack off during their war with the Centauri. Also, some ships lose all of their ability to communicate (and, presumably, to fight) immediately after they exit jumpgates.Besides, SF ships wouldnt even be able to detect a ship in hyperspace. So, a ship flying about at warp will be completely defenseless when a jump point suddenly opens, and a Whitestar comes out of hyperspace with its guns blazing.
Worthless, but it is unlikely B5 ships would be able to do that much damage that quickly, even if they could manage to utilize such an attack.How good are sheilds when you cant get them up after massive damage to your fragile science vessels?
First, a ship that has the capability of relativisitic speeds (Legacy) will require a fair degree of defense against KE-impacts, etc. Whether this is in the form of some kind of field (generated by the gravimetric engines), use of the tractor beam-tech (seen in ItB and other episodes), or material resistance on the part of their hulls is the question. Second, the Minbari were not planning on fighting anyone. Only the Rangers and a handful of other believers were even concerned about the Shadows returning, so it is not logical to assume the Minbari designed their ships to fight against them. Third, a nuclear bomb in space IS an energy weapon NOT a kinetic one. What little direct kinetic effect from a nuclear device there is, comes from the miniscule mass of the outer casing, material in the released energy's path, and in the case of ItB and ItF the asteroidal ejecta caused by a sudden burst of x-/gamma rays causing vaporization and rapid expansion. Fourth, even after being subjected to both the initial EM-burst (which were observed to cause no visible change in the outer surface) and subsequent shockwaves of two seperate nukes the overall structural integrity of the Black Star was not compromised. She exploded from within after the second shockwave had impacted, and she was most certainly not ripped apart. A photon torpedo is an energy weapon, and only on rare occasions have they exhibited any large degree of kinetic effect. Your statement that a photon torpedo will rip them apart because of a supposed vulnerability is flawed.Since the two kinds of armor were probably designed to combat the same kinds of weapons (who else would the Minbari be planning to fight but the Shadows?), we should be able to conclude that Sharlin armor is extremely weak against weapons like bombs. In other words, photon torpedoes would rip them to shreds at long distances.
True, Lyta was jamming the battle crab I based the calcs on. But only a few minutes later, a G'Quan cruiser and a whitestar at 60% efficency managed to put out the minimum >=60 MT to destroy an UNjammed BC.Master of Ossus wrote:Except that Lyta was jamming the BC at the time, also, preventing it from using its full defensive measures. It is highly likely that the White Star's weapons were much weaker than that.
In the context of her little speech, its yield appeared to be above-average at the very least. I can't see Ivanova, who has a penchant for acting tough, saying something to the effect of "If you don't comply, I'll have my station open up on you with its weaker weaponry."Dead on Arrival wrote: Also, no where was it ever stated that the 200 MW pulse cannon that Ivanova threatened the smuggler's with was part of the main armament or even part of the weapon's upgrade.
Heavy infantry weapon? That's reaching quite a bit. It's doubtful Ivanova would brag about the offensive capabilities of her station's weaker weapons, as someone pointed out earlier.The weapon was stated to be 'in the cargo hold', so instead of being externally mounted it could be an internally mounted weapon (ala the drop-down blaster that destroyed the Jedi transport in the beginning of TPM) or a heavy infantry weapon in storage (easily done when one does the math as to the actual ENERGY of the weapon).
How do you know she was referring to the station's weapons at all? The smuggler's ships are not going to possess military grade shielding (of a material, not energy-based, nature), so they could very well be damaged by a non-capital scale weapon. A few shots from a heavy infantry/light vehicle weapon should be more than sufficient, and would be much less conspicuous then firing upon a civilian starship.In the context of her little speech, its yield appeared to be above-average at the very least. I can't see Ivanova, who has a penchant for acting tough, saying something to the effect of "If you don't comply, I'll have my station open up on you with its weaker weaponry."
You are inferring that she was bragging about the station's weapons, when it is equally likely she was referring to something stored/mounted internally that could be used to damage the smugglers' ships. Also, if you figure the velocity for the weapon in question is 1000 m/s and it fires pulses .5 meters in length a single bolt will only have 100 kJ of energy. That is the rough equivalent of 23.8 grams of TNT, so you can see why I might believe the weapon is in fact a heavy infantry/light vehicle weapon system.Heavy infantry weapon? That's reaching quite a bit. It's doubtful Ivanova would brag about the offensive capabilities of her station's weaker weapons, as someone pointed out earlier.
1. Why would that be less conspicious? These could very well be internal weapons, but hangar-based fixed weaponry fire would be just as visible as an infantry weapon.Dead on Arrival wrote:How do you know she was referring to the station's weapons at all? The smuggler's ships are not going to possess military grade shielding (of a material, not energy-based, nature), so they could very well be damaged by a non-capital scale weapon. A few shots from a heavy infantry/light vehicle weapon should be more than sufficient, and would be much less conspicuous then firing upon a civilian starship.In the context of her little speech, its yield appeared to be above-average at the very least. I can't see Ivanova, who has a penchant for acting tough, saying something to the effect of "If you don't comply, I'll have my station open up on you with its weaker weaponry."
I am merely saying that it's unlikely to be an infantry weapons, for reasons stated above.You are inferring that she was bragging about the station's weapons, when it is equally likely she was referring to something stored/mounted internally that could be used to damage the smugglers' ships.Heavy infantry weapon? That's reaching quite a bit. It's doubtful Ivanova would brag about the offensive capabilities of her station's weaker weapons, as someone pointed out earlier.
That's granted all of these assumptions are true. And when you assume... well, you know.Also, if you figure the velocity for the weapon in question is 1000 m/s and it fires pulses .5 meters in length a single bolt will only have 100 kJ of energy. That is the rough equivalent of 23.8 grams of TNT, so you can see why I might believe the weapon is in fact a heavy infantry/light vehicle weapon system.
Visible to whom? If you use the station's external weapons on a ship then it can be seen by other ships, people looking out windows, etc. A hangar bay is likely a closed section, making it easier to sabatage (which I believe was what Ivanova was going for) a docked vessel whether by the way of a 200 MW pulse cannon or something more subtle (like having their engines tampered with by an engineer).1. Why would that be less conspicious? These could very well be internal weapons, but hangar-based fixed weaponry fire would be just as visible as an infantry weapon.
In the flash-forward of the alternate timeline in "War w/o End" we see Garibaldi using a rather large energy weapon against the invading Shadow minions. That weapon could perhaps be a 200 MW pulse cannon in action, as it definitely wasn't a standard PPG pistol or rifle. Also, they might have numerous such weapons in storage just in case they are needed. Kind of like how the local security forces at my local nuclear power plant have assault rifles, grenades, etc in storage in addition to their normal weapon loadout. I could see the use of such a weapon if they needed to quickly board/destroy an already docked vessel, say if they detected it was rigged to explode, etc.2. The idea of them having a (single) large infantry weapon that someone would have to bring out of storage just to do what a station gun could is somewhat far-fetched, IMHO. For one, what would they be using this artillery piece for otherwise? There are no theatres of planetary war close to Epsilon Eridani.
*blink* Visible to an observer. If the weapon is inside the hangar, it doesn't really matter if it's a rifle or a fixed cannon in regards to visibility, which was my point.Dead on Arrival wrote:Visible to whom?1. Why would that be less conspicious? These could very well be internal weapons, but hangar-based fixed weaponry fire would be just as visible as an infantry weapon.
Yep, I was agreeing with you here. That was the reason for my stating Ivanova would logically choose to threaten the man with an internal weapon, and not with a glorified SAW.If you use the station's external weapons on a ship then it can be seen by other ships, people looking out windows, etc. A hangar bay is likely a closed section, making it easier to sabatage (which I believe was what Ivanova was going for) a docked vessel whether by the way of a 200 MW pulse cannon or something more subtle (like having their engines tampered with by an engineer).
Does it blow people in half with single shots? A 10 MJ pulse would to that and more, you know. I'm assuming a 1/20th second pulse, just FYI.In the flash-forward of the alternate timeline in "War w/o End" we see Garibaldi using a rather large energy weapon against the invading Shadow minions. That weapon could perhaps be a 200 MW pulse cannon in action, as it definitely wasn't a standard PPG pistol or rifle.2. The idea of them having a (single) large infantry weapon that someone would have to bring out of storage just to do what a station gun could is somewhat far-fetched, IMHO. For one, what would they be using this artillery piece for otherwise? There are no theatres of planetary war close to Epsilon Eridani.
Yes, but my point is, you don't threaten some guy's entire shipping operation by pointing to a SAW, especially not if you're in control of a heavily armed port."Also, they might have numerous such weapons in storage just in case they are needed. Kind of like how the local security forces at my local nuclear power plant have assault rifles, grenades, etc in storage in addition to their normal weapon loadout. I could see the use of such a weapon if they needed to quickly board/destroy an already docked vessel, say if they detected it was rigged to explode, etc.
Schmitty_Mgee wrote:START THINKING!! cappy zod u mustve been turned around somewhere. those 200 megawatt "big pulse cannons" those r located on the starfurries, u know those tiny assed FIGHTERS! and most of their "laser" systems r based on x-rays not accelerated light f00l. and as my good friend solidsnake has already mentioned, physical armor has actually been proven to b better than ur trekkie energy shields. and by the way he will b back with more too(solidsnake that is). i mean comon the shields r frequency based! how stupid and pathetic is that?
You assume that the White Star has the firepower of a much larger and less maneuverable Narn Dreadnaught. The Narn Dreadnaught clearly has greater firepower than the White Star, by a hell of a lot. Note how easily three of them seriously damaged the BC during their ill-fated attack on the Centauri outpost. A WhiteStar firing for six times that long never did that much damage to a BC, even at full efficiency. The Narn Dreadnaught simply has to be more powerful, by a bunch, than the White Star. Alternatively, we could believe that the BC's armor is designed to protect it from a single weapon, and was unprepared for the Narn attack, though this seems unlikely.Shadow WarChief wrote:.6 = efficiency of WhiteStar
W= Power Output of WhiteStar
7 = seconds fired
G = Power output of G'Quan
15 = seconds fired
60 = minimum energy
.6W (7) + Q (15) = 60
while we can't get an exact power output for either ship, we can get an average output for the two
(Q+W) ÷ 2 = 60
Avg energy for the two shipss = 30 MT
Now the firing time of the Whitestar and the G’Quan combined was 22 seconds.
So 30/22= 1.36 MT /second
So this means that when the G’Quan first began firing alone for the first 8 seconds it’s power output was actually greater than 1.36 MT /second.