A new Star Wars game?

[Laughing Mechanicus]

I have a proposition for everyone,

A group of friends and I are working on a 3D engine. At the moment we have finished the basic 3D engine and are programming in more advanced graphical features such as DOT3 bump mapping and per pixel shaders (and many other advanced special effects like z-correct bump mapping etc..). In short we will fairly soon have a malleable 3D engine that supports advanced grapics ready to be molded into a game.

What does this have to do with you? well basically we are now trying to decide what to make this game about, and after going through some initial concepts (a realistic space sim and a realistic modern day RTS among others...) we have come to one conclusion. We want to make a Star Wars game, and we want to make one the likes of which the world has not seen before.

Sounds a little ambitious doesnt it? well truth is it is and we are. The whole team are dedicated Star Wars fans and gamers, and I personally have had experience making substantial mods for several games (if your interested my current project is an addon for Operation Flashpoint called the "Realism Pack", it is the largest addon available for the game and changes every weapon and vehicle in the game to be more realistic, you can see about half my handtyped code for the addon here)

However, there still several big hurdles to get over, the first is that we actually decide to make a Star Wars game, because the Realistic RTS is still quite an attractive possibility to me and other team members. Secondly there is the not so insignificant matter of copyright, this may not be as much of a problem as it might have been however because Lucasfilm/Lucasarts has shown themselves to be extremely tollerant to things such as mods for games, screensavers and all those comical short films involving Star Wars, taking the policy that anything goes aslong as no money is made from it, which is no problem for us because this game would be completely free.

IF everything falls into place and we decide and are able to make a Star Wars game, here is what we most likely propose...

It would be a game based in space set in the original trilogy. It would deal with both capital ship combat and fighter combat. It would adhere strictly to the rules of canon AND would correctly simulate space based physics. It would avoid extraeneous Expanded Universe influence where possible (however we would likely hold votes on types of EU ideas to include, probably on these forums).

Now those basics are set out I'll go into more detail: The game would initially contain two controllable craft classes, these would most likely be Imperial Star Destroyers and Mon Calamari Cruisers. You would control either one of these ships and all its assets (including fighter squadrons etc...) and do battle with you enemies in coordination with other ships of your class or smaller/larger classes. For singleplayer you would assume command of a freshly produced ship giving it a name etc... and you could then earn "experience points" for its crew each time you brought them out of combat alive, giving the game some role playing elements. For controls I would like to have it so you walk around your bridge (or slide around on that rotating captains chair if you the Mon Cal) giving orders to various crewmen and controlling the battle from the windows\viewscreens or other cameras (for example attached to you starfighters). We would also eventually aim to allow players to fly starfighters and command other classes of vesssel.

There are so many more things I could say but I think you get the general idea of the sort of game we want to make.

Now, I would like your thoughts on this idea, on its plausability, on its concept and on its features.

Once again None of what I had said is set in stone, any or all of it could change at any moment for any reason. We realise this is a difficult undertaking but we are all prepared to do this work because we will all enjoy doing it, and it will give us a stepping stone to becoming professional games designers.

[Master of Ossus]

Will you able to assign crewmen and pilots around, to give them the fullest effect? And will they have different and individual statistics? I think that THAT would make a totally cool game. The more micro-management before the battle begins, the easier you make things for yourself during the battle.

[Laughing Mechanicus]

All the ideas are still to be pinned down, but that would be one of the likely features yes, assigning people to the jobs they are best suited to, and of course the occasional crewman death means you have a new "Green" crewman replace him who has less experience.

[Admiral Drason]

That game would be way cool but is it at all possible that it could be done?

[Master of Ossus]

All the ideas are still to be pinned down, but that would be one of the likely features yes, assigning people to the jobs they are best suited to, and of course the occasional crewman death means you have a new "Green" crewman replace him who has less experience.

[sits back with steepled hands] Excellent.

[Cal Wright]

I think Force Commander used the experience factor as well. Units would gain like a red bar next to thier icon. Supposedly it was like upgrading in battlegrounds were thier stats were increased all across the board. Shoot faster, better, stronger, take more damage that sort of thing. It would be interesting when your attacked and sending in the umpteenth X-Wing squadron to cover your escape, only to find half are vaped in the first salvo. Heh. Capital combat would be awesome, especially if you can control multiple vessels.

[Laughing Mechanicus]

I wouldnt envision direct control of more than one capital ship, but "commanding" several is easily a possibility. You could tell them where to go, what to attack etc... you could even apply experience to the captains of those vessels. The possibilities are huge...

[Kuja]

voice acting

[Laughing Mechanicus]

For voice acting one of the team has some proffesional recording equipment (his dad does audio/video editing) and hopefully he could recruit some of his fellow students to help with voice acting (we all live in england so we've got the Imperials voices pretty easy).

[Bob The Great]

I have long dreampt of a realistic Star Wars game like this. If it's done right, it could be absolutely incredible. Here's what I would like to see in it:

The idea of your character being an actual officer on the bridge is a great idea, as opposed to some god-like overseer, micromanaging dozens of fleets on opposite sides of the galaxy, a la Rebellion.

I also like the idea of having valuable crewmembers die if your ship is heavily damaged, or even of having the player himself die, if the ship is destroyed (not just transfer to another ship).

Suggestion 1 : Timescale

IMHO, the timeline for this game should stretch beyond just the Battle of Endor. I mean, that's just when things start getting interesting, from a naval point of view. Just think of the possibilities once the Empire fractures, and warlords start infighting! You could choose a faction to join (create your own?), and crush all the others in your bid for power while fighting off rebel and pirate raids, and defending important planets (Coruscant, Correlia, Kuat, etc.) Maybe the way to "win" the game would be to solidly control several key planetary systems, thus becoming the top warlord (or one of his trusted commanders). Plus, with an extended timeline, you get to play with some of the cool EU ships (I'm not talking about the stupid ones, btw). Alternatively, as a rebel officer, you could help the rebellion capture all those systems to win.

Suggestion 2 : progressive commands

I think it would be really cool if this character could start out as a fresh officer graduate of the Imperial Naval Academy, say slightly before ANH, and be given command of a small ship like a Carrack Crusier or Correlian Corvette (or whatever would be appropriate to the timeline). Then, as he made connections with higher-ups (perhaps even famous characters?) and earned experience through victories (either alone, with a small line of ships, or as part of a larger fleet engagement), he and his command crew (couple of dozen guys?) would be assigned to larger and larger ships and missions. Maybe even eventually get assigned under Lord Vader, or to a twin to the Executer. Perhaps there could even be a choice point in the storyline (after Hoth perhaps), where you can take the ships under your command and defect to the rebel side! Some or all of your officers may or may not come with you, of course, and you may have to fight your way out once Vader finds out what you're up to. This, I expect would be the point where the game really heats up, as rebel or Imperial.

Suggestion 3: large fleet engagements/famous battles

I have no doubt that you plan to have all range in scale of combat engagements, but I had to mention it. Also, participating in peripheral parts of some of the famous battles would be cool. For example, chasing down and destroying a couple of transports at the battle of Hoth, searching the asteroid field for the Millenium Falcon (maybe finding some pirates or something, instead), or thwarting the escape of a rebel cruiser at the Battle of Endor. On the rebel side, the parts played would not need to be peripheral (because they actually win the battles in the movies), and you could command one of the Mon Cal Cruisers at Endor or something like that.

Suggestion 4 : multiple control interfaces

Clearly, even the best commander can't run everything from the main bridge. A ground assault coordination room is an absolute must, and I think that a fighter coord. room, an orbital bombardment control room, and a strategy room (for battle plans, and long-range coordination/delegation <-see #7) are too. Also, for fleet engagements, or hell, any battle, I think there should be a holographic 3-d battle map projected on the main bridge. The player should be able to toggle between on-bridge view where you can walk around (battle map still visible and usable, and maybe on a datapad, as well) and a detailed view that enlarges the battle map and allows you to control its view, send orders directly to other ships, etc. (you would not be able to walk around and give detailed orders to your own ship here). This would allow two different command syles : one where your ship sits on the edge of the battle, micromanaging your other ships, but is slow to respond itself, and another style where your ship is in pitched battle, and you have to worry about your own ass, as well as coordinate with the other ships (to a lesser extent, though).

Suggestion 5 : Orbital bombardment/Ground assualt

This is imminently important in any good space sim! The ships have to be able to blow up stuff on the planets. Likewise the planets must be able to shoot back and launch fighters/small gunboats at you in addition to whatever defense fleet is in orbit. And of course, planetary shields should be a large factor. On a side note, it would be nice to have widely varying battle scenes; deep space convoy ambush or facility defense and low orbit planetary assualts. Some sort of ground assault mode would also be nice, though I'm not sure how micromanaged it should be, and how to go about capturing cities and stuff. Perhaps an engine like that on Eath 2150 would be good, where you have a base of operations (beachhead, chosen, then invaded by you) and then a series of major locations around the planet that must be taken to completely pacify it.

Suggestion 6 : large scale of everything

The galaxy ought to be a big galaxy, not just a dozen systems with 5 or 6 planets each. I realize that mapping out a realistic galaxy would take an immense ammount of time, but certainly you could do a little more than Rebellion did. In addition, it would be cool to see moons and space stations/asteroid bases in addition to planets (the Nar Shadaa/Nal Hutta moon/planet system, for example).

Suggestion 7 : delegation of authority

As commander of a fleet or ship, you should be able to put one of your officers in charge of a ground assault or fighter coordination, give him in-battle orders (if he's on a different ship), or even give him a couple of ships and send him on a series of hit-and-runs or something to draw attention while you attack the big target. Likewise, in fleet battles, you should be able to assign lower officers to command ships under you, much as you were assigned to a ship or a line early in the game. Maybe you could even leave one of your trusted officers in charge of your own ship during a battle, while you controled the fighters or commanded a ground assault.

Suggestion 8 : True space combat physics

"Up" has no meaning. Strategy should include the ability to invert ships, so as to maximize thier firing arcs in certain formations, vertical pincers as well as horizontal, and various preset (and custom) formations that actually make sense in a 3-d battlefield. Momentum is important, especially for starfighters. They should be able to slide sideways, strafe at an angle, etc. Inside a gravity well, all ships should be able to use their repulsor-lifts to keep themselves steady, or maybe even as a primary means of motion. In deep space, however, they would have to rely soley on Ion drives, and I think they should be a little bit more sluggish and difficult to control outside of a major gravity well.

Suggestion 9 : realistic armament

I'm sure, given the nature of this board, that I don't need to say this, but I might as well anyway. Please try to get accurate weapons counts on ships. It drives me nuts whenever I see an ISD "broadside" in some game, and think "Where are the other 50 or so guns?" Also, fighters should not be much of a threat to large capital ships, except like, the Missile Boat B-Wing. However, smaller capitals should have to watch out for fighters, though not as much as for those heavy turbolasers.

Suggestion 10 : tactical micro-jumps

I'm a little undecided about this, but it could be cool if used properly. By microjumps, I mean jumping from a planet to its moon, or even to another planet in the same system in real-time, to reinforce, or drop off a load of fighters in one battle, before going off to fight in another. I think this would add a lot to the strategy and tactics required in the game, as you would have to consider not only the enemy forces at a particular point, but also those in the entire system that could be called in as reinforcements. Note that I AM NOT talking about a Star Wars equivalent to "warp strafing." warp strafing would be stupid, imo, and would degrade the tactical part of this game severely.

Suggestion 11 : resouce management (no, I don't mean harvesting)

A massive warship, or a fleet of them no doubt require enormous ammounts of fuel, food, air, water, and stuff like that. Periodic stops at imperial stations or rebel friendly planets to stock up and repair, especially after a heated battle would be cool. Also, a crew moral meter could be used to encourage somewhat frequent shore leave stops, maybe as double duty while pacifying a planet. As moral dips, due to cabin fever, low supplies, or a sore defeat in battle, the ships efficiency and effectiveness would drop. Also, a point system like in Force Commander (except better) would determine how easy it is to replace lost ships, fighters, and crew from Imperial high command.

Suggestion 12 : Ability to leave the ship

Captains need shore leave too. Being able to take a transport, or a TIE shuttle to meet some important people or land on a planet to gather information would be cool. Also, being able to control a ground battle, or even a space battle from the surface of a planet (inside one of those Chariot LAV things) would be immensely cool. Likewise a fighter battle, though I just can't see a Grand Admiral flying around in a TIE Interceptor, you know? Obviously the danger level in these situations in far greater, and I think you should be able to be killed in them, but ocassionally they may be neccessary (depending on the storyline). Perhaps there could be a rebel ambush or something while you're negotiating with a planetary lord, and you would have to escape alive back to your shuttle. Or your transport could be attacked on its way to meet with Lord Vader about the status of your fleet. Something along those lines would keep things interesting.

Suggestion 13 : ranks and personalization of ships/staff

I think that rank advancement, and accompanying ship commands, and access to new classes of ships and more personnel would be cool. Perhaps the moving-up process could be governed by a combination of rank and various medals awarded for different stuff. Likewise, your underlings would gain in rank and experience, get medals, etc. etc. Ships have to named!! I'm undecided on whether to allow the player to name them (since this doesn't quite fit with naval tradition) or have a bank of names picked out for each side and have them distributed randomly (with exceptions *cough*Devastator*cough*). Perhaps each ship could be assigned a permanent name, and then you get to give your flagship a temporary name of your own choosing. This way you could take the name with you when you are given a new flagship. Another aspect of this would be to have certain experienced elite fighter, ground, or special ops/covert units (either assigned under you once you prove yourself, or developed under your command) that you can send to get especially nasty jobs done.

Suggestion 14 : Stealing ships

This would apply almost exclusively to the rebels, but I think it would be cool anyway. At the end of every victorious battle, you would be given the option of towing hulks back to the nearest shipyard your faction controls, where after some time, they would be repaired, recrewed, and added to your fleet (or, even better, maybe each captured ship would get you an ammount of experience points).

Well, that got a little bit longer than I intended, but if you can sift through all that typing, I think I got some good ideas in there. I really hope this happens. It would be so cool to finally have a realistic SW sim to play. Thank you thank you thank you in advance for attempting this, and please keep us updated on the progress.

[NecronLord]

you really wont to try and manage 100,000 crew?

good luck

on another note. for larger ships look up Curtis saxton's ship guide

why do people use the term broadsides for isd's they are clearly designed to fire forwards

[Mr Bean]

why do people use the term broadsides for isd's they are clearly designed to fire forwards

Because you expose yourself to much fire if you go on full attack, If you fire from the side you get Venteral, Top and some Rear-Arch guns

A foward facing ISD can bring a max of 36 HTLS to bear and assorted other guns, a side facing ISD can bring 32 to bear... HOWEVER A side facing ISD can reforce its shields by a factor for 4x and be safe while a foward facing can only reforce it to 1.5X(Drop all shields but the one your oppent is facing and pump power into it)


If you like nice BIIIIG AND ROUND Numbers
Try
500 Mega-ton LTLs
250 Giga-ton MTL
5 Tera-ton HTLs
500 Tera-ton Shielding(IE can take one Petaton of damage)
(All based of the ISD MK II, Not most likley but nice and even and close enough to likley that it does not matter)
However it only takes 30 Tera-tons to create a temporary gap in a shield and let fire pour through for a few second or another way of saying it is if one where to aim 5 HTLS on the same point have a MTL fire a ten of a second after, some of that 250 Giga-tons would leak through the shield and slam into the Ship, melting,vaping anything underneath, More and more the evidance seems to support that MTLs are desgined to go after Emplacements while LTLs are for engaging smaller targets and doing the same thing as MTLS though to a lesser extent

Its also how torp barages can creat the wholes one needs to sneak a torp or two through, though they are only Megatons(100 for anti-fighter versions to Cap ship versions for 10 Gigatons, estmated through scalling)
Thier force is focused along such a tiny area(Less than a foot) that they can *Shove a hole, for a few seconds to allow a torp or two to skip through and batter the hull

In game terms this means that anything over say 24 Missles there would be a precentage chance% of one making it through(say 4%) and hitting the hull, which ups to better chances at say 48(12%) 72(24%) 96(40%) and 144(68%)

I make it my business to know general figures for SW, if you need a Tech advisor to ask a question or somthing don't be afraid to PM me(Or if you disagree with everything I said just remeber to mutter dumb fuck and I'll get the message )

[Laughing Mechanicus]

Bob the Great, thanks for taking the time to write that, loads of great ideas, some are ofcourse quite ambitious (controlling ground battles could be a game in itself) but they're the type of things we would intend to inlcude in the long term once we were happy with the main part of the game. I've made copy of your post and put it in my concepts file.

Necronlord, you would never attempt to manage ALL the crew of an ISD or Mon Cal but you would instead manage only the important members, for example there would be a cheif engineer incharge of the engines or a chief technician incharge of ComScan. They would represent large portions of your ships crew and would disseminate their experience to their underlings automatically. Curtis Saxons page the SW Technical Commentaries is extremely good and I plan on refering to it often.

Mr Bean, thanks for the info, I'll file it away for future use. As for battering temporary holes in shields, that could be quite well implemented, to begin with your inexperienced gunners would just pound on the enenmy target with all guns occasionally making these holes by accident, but as they got more experienced they could automatically attempt to make these holes to allow some fire through to hit the enemies hull, eventually when they became even more experienced they could punch holes in specific parts of the sheilds that would allow them to fire through and hit critical components such as hangers and turrets.

[Akm72]

Sounds cool, can I help?
I'm an proffessional real-time modeller with games experience and some (limited) games design background. I have day job which might limit how much I can do, but I can give you a nice (untextured) Corellian Corvette if you want, and in a few days a model of the Falcon.

The first comment I'd make, having just skimmed your post, is to get a fairly detailed initial design of the way the 3D interactive bridge will work, before doing any modelling or programming work on it. If you havn't already, look at the 'Star Trek bridge commander' game, which made a good attempt to do something similar but failed as it was better to fly the starships from the external view. This feature is one that will make or break your game.

[Oberleutnant]

The problem with making a freeware game set to the Star Wars universe are the Lucasfilm lawyers. There is always the risk that they might interfere with the project. If everything would work fine, however, it would be the game I've been dreaming of since I saw Star Wars films for the first time.

[sits back with steepled hands and does Mr Burns impersonation] Excellent.

[Bob The Great]

Aaron Ash - Well, hey, you said you were ambitius No, seriously, that's the stuff I would expect in a perfect game; essentially 3 or four game types in one. For this game, though, if you decide to use some or most of it, even as a very long-term goal, that would still be uber-cool).

I also think that having more experienced gunnery crews be able to batter holes in shields could be very interesting. It would give a greater importance to having experienced crews, in addition to accuracy improvements and stuff.

If you need any more ideas or input on how to implement something in gameplay or even storyline, let me know. I'm full of ideas, just no way to make them a reality. I will say that I'm not looking for a spot on the team or anything; but I'm here as an outside idea generator.

[Laughing Mechanicus]

Fortunately as I said above the Lucasfil/Lucasarts lawyers should leave us alone because they have a policy of allowing anything so long as its free and no profit is made from it, as evidenced by the fan made films and the many many mods for other games that appear to have no problem from Lucas. It is however still a risk that they will just step in and put a stop to it, but it is a risk we can deal with and attempt to minimise.

[Laughing Mechanicus]

Please if you have ideas post them, I'm noting down everything that is suggested so I don't forget any good ones.

[Cpt_Frank]

The game that I always wanted. Do it.

[Akm72]

As no-ones mentioned it yet I will; Damage modelling.
A lot of wargames make no effort to model damage in any realistic way. Yet it you do the additional work to do this properly it will inevitably result in a richer game where different tactical options have more interesting results.
What this means in practice within your game is having a concept of armour-piercing, detailed damage models and different componants within the hull that can be damaged or destroyed. Make no mistake; this is a lot of work, but IMHO well worth it.

The same also applies to sensors & jamming, though this doesn't have to be as complex a task to implement.

ps. Did you see my offer on the previous page?

[Mr Bean]

Yes ECM drasticly reduces the accurasy but it cuts both ways


ECM on a Cap ship are VERY bad

To give you an example of how ECM in SW works let me paint you a picture
With words anyway I'm a terrible artist

Any take an ISD, Drawn a 10 KM Circlue around it, On its lower models of jamming thats basicly what happens the ISD *Grows in signal size and because of the way SW ECM works that Signal can be *aimed any which way, In other words that *Sphere could be centered on the ship, projected behind it, to the sides or whatnot

When jamming heavy SW ECM actual warps space/time somewhat, propertly messing with controls but on the flip side, creating a 50-400Km sized Sphere that only Visual Sensors can pentrate, everything from Radio/subspace/Hyperswave sensors are complete blocked out

Why most SW ships shoot at LS range is because the jamming on them is so sever that a ship can make a sensor shadow 400 KMs sized and your aming for a 2 KM ship in a 100 KM, your bascily firing blind, and even if you DO hit, you won't know unless you have drones/fighters up thier spoting for you

Understand?

[Kuja]

Imagine: You're the captain of an ISD. you're chasing a rebel frigate towards the edge of a system. The firgate is carrying equipment that must be captured. Suddenly, a heavily damaged VSD drops out of hype, broadcasting 'distress.' The Vic won't last long, but if you turn around, you'll lose the firgate.

What do you do?

Moments like these make games great, and even allow for branching stoylines that make them INCREDIBLE!

[Bob The Great]

Branching storylines would be so cool!! or maybe, variations or little branching offshoots from a main storyline, that rejoin it at certain key points. They would offer opportunities for leadership, decision making, and experience building besides just the main timeline.

damage modeling/destroying key points (guns, sensors, hanger facilities, etc.) on the hull or inside the ship would also be cool, especially for smaller ships (imagines a lancer frigate with chunks blown out of its spine, venting gouts of flame and debris )

Another thing is, I don't think you should have the ships just spontaneously disappear inside a fireball when they're destroyed. Well, smaller ships maybe, but it would be so cool to see huge derelict ripped-apart hulks floating around after a battle. This is one the things I really liked about Privateer 2 (way back in the day, I know), and it bugs me that no one incorporates this in modern games.

[Laughing Mechanicus]

We are planning on fully incorporating damage modelling, by using a combination of model replacement (for heavy damage) and bump mapped decals (for light damage and cratering) and simple decals (for scorch marks and scratches). This will give every ship a really gritty look that will persist until your ships next servicing (i.e. when you dock at a space station). Perhaps after repairs the location of old damage could still be seen by looking for the armor patches used to cover it. Damage to your hull during battle will be made dramatic by the use of particle systems to simulate flames and debris being sucked out of hull breaches, and would persist for a time until the ship is able to isolate that area to seal the breach. Also "dead" or disabled ships will not simply explode leaving no debris when killed, they will either float in space disabled but mostly intact, or for more severe damage they could be broken apart by heavy fire from other ships and leave hulks that hurtle out of control towards nearby planets or would float about causing a hazard to surviving ships, some cases the crew may even launch escape pods and attempt to scuttle the ship causing a major problem to any vessels near it when it explodes showering them with super hot debris.

[Bob The Great]

WOOHOO!! Man, I can't wait for this game!