Yuzhan Vong numbers

[PainRack]

I haven't really read through the NJO sourcebook released, but does the claim that the NR has killed a third of the Yuzhan Vong warriors hold up?

Also, anyone can guess what kind of numbers and ships we're talking about?

[His Divine Shadow]

I'd say somewhere between 250,000 to 2 million ships myself.

If some wacked out EU author gets his hands on it I spose we're looking at a hew hundred world ships or something.

[Agent R]

In the book Destiny's Way it's stated that about 1/3 of their warriors are already dead. No figures on priests, slaves, shapers or shamed ones.

Also, in Destiny's Way, the Yuuzhan Vong seemed pretty desperate for troops. Shimmra ordered warriors to begin reproducing at the age of 16, and told the shapers to use surge-coral implants on slaves to allow yammosks to control them in battle.

I don't know about their coralskippers or warships because they seem to be able to grow them readily enough, but they also take heavy losses.

I heard that there were thousands of worldships, but that most of them were dying due to age.

[consequences]

There was a worldship construction thing happening in the rubble of Sernpidal to help replace their dying craft, but that got taken out.

Given the losses they took in SbS, and the losses that would have happened off-stage as they fought for Coruscant's surface, 1/3 of their warriors is plausible, especially if the crews of their capships aren't all YV warriors.

[Ender]

Original ship figures stated 1000 warships. I would assume this is either worldships, or ships of sufficient tonnage that the NR military considered a serious threat at the time, as the bulk of YV ships are <600 meters, which is frigate scale at best.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The standard YV cruiser is 1,600 meters?

[Ender]

The standard YV cruiser is 1,600 meters?

Unfortunatly, no. The ship that seems to make the most appearances is their destroyer, which is 440 meters long (NJO SB says it is a frigate, but the higher ranking novels say a frigate is smaller and faster at ~150 meters). the 1600 ones and 2200 ones are rare appearances, usually serving as command ships.

It basically follows the WEG thing of Star Destroyers aren't destroyers, they are battle cruisers! thinking.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Which is actually beneficial, because it makes the YV smaller scale; like the Mon Cals in the Endor-era.

At this point, the 1200 meter vessels are standard for the Republic. Heavier ships include the larger-than-ISD Mediator, the Viscount, and others.

[Ender]

Which is actually beneficial, because it makes the YV smaller scale; like the Mon Cals in the Endor-era.

Having been spending alot of time studying the Mon Cals lately, I'm just gonna say this: They were not small scale in the movies, and the fact that they could go toe to toe with ISDs and expect to come out the better is not suprising. They looked pretty and daintly, but those things are nasty. The sneak attack at Endor was meant to be the drive by from hell.

At this point, the 1200 meter vessels are standard for the Republic. Heavier ships include the larger-than-ISD Mediator, the Viscount, and others.

The problem is that while the ships are smaller, the firepower was condensed greatly. The Republic class star destroyers we see are smaller then an ISD at ~1250 meters, but pack enough firepower to be in the low end of the heavy cruiser range.

[Illuminatus Primus]

enough firepower to be in the low end of the heavy cruiser range.

WEG heavy cruiser, or "Kuati" heavy cruiser?

And the Mon Cal's cruiser is still the equal of a Kuati destroyer.

[Ender]

enough firepower to be in the low end of the heavy cruiser range.

WEG heavy cruiser, or "Kuati" heavy cruiser?

With a total of 240 HTLs, it's a movie scale Cruiser.

And the Mon Cal's cruiser is still the equal of a Kuati destroyer.

Some of them, yes. There were multiple kinds present, and some of them were far more then a match for a destroyer as they were well into the light cruiser range (Home one and her sisters). Keep in mind that while they had less weapons, the ones they had were ISD mark 1 scale HTLs, which carry more power. Plus their design allowed for greater fire concentration, engine placement made for better manuvering, lighter frame made for greater acceleration, and more shielding let them han in longer.

[Illuminatus Primus]

enough firepower to be in the low end of the heavy cruiser range.

WEG heavy cruiser, or "Kuati" heavy cruiser?

With a total of 240 HTLs, it's a movie scale Cruiser.

We buy RPG calcs when they can't even draw the thing looking like a Star Destroyer (Cracken's Threat Dossier), and can't figure out whether there's a Nebula or Republic Star Destroyer or Defender. They've been usually wrong on the canon ships, and I don't see why we should take that when we don't say the ISD has 60 HTLs.

Some of them, yes. There were multiple kinds present, and some of them were far more then a match for a destroyer as they were well into the light cruiser range (Home one and her sisters).

There were two, I believe.

Keep in mind that while they had less weapons, the ones they had were ISD mark 1 scale HTLs, which carry more power.

The Liberty had more numerous gun emplacements than an ISD, but I believe the guns themselves were smaller, and their fields of fire were more constrained.

Plus their design allowed for greater fire concentration, engine placement made for better manuvering, lighter frame made for greater acceleration, and more shielding let them han in longer.

There's also the possibility the MC80B and MC90 were larger than the standard 1200 meters.

[Ender]

WEG heavy cruiser, or "Kuati" heavy cruiser?

With a total of 240 HTLs, it's a movie scale Cruiser.

We buy RPG calcs when they can't even draw the thing looking like a Star Destroyer (Cracken's Threat Dossier), and can't figure out whether there's a Nebula or Republic Star Destroyer or Defender. They've been usually wrong on the canon ships, and I don't see why we should take that when we don't say the ISD has 60 HTLs.

If you have better, more accurate information from a higher source that is in itself not grossly flawed, believe me, I am all ears.

Some of them, yes. There were multiple kinds present, and some of them were far more then a match for a destroyer as they were well into the light cruiser range (Home one and her sisters).

There were two, I believe.

The Liberty had more numerous gun emplacements than an ISD, but I believe the guns themselves were smaller, and their fields of fire were more constrained.

1 for 3. It had ~32 weapons total by examination of a broadside on the model, leaving it with far less then an ISD. You are indeed correct that the fields of fire are restriced to a horizontal plane, but are wrong on their scale, they are the larger HTLs for the ISD 1 varient. The guns take up most of the slots if you zoom in, and given the size of the slots this indicates that these guns are larger then those found on the ISD2 variant.

Plus their design allowed for greater fire concentration, engine placement made for better manuvering, lighter frame made for greater acceleration, and more shielding let them han in longer.

There's also the possibility the MC80B and MC90 were larger than the standard 1200 meters.[/quote]As it's WEG info, I agree that it is possible that they fucked that up. But without anything to back it...

[Illuminatus Primus]

You are indeed correct that the fields of fire are restriced to a horizontal plane, but are wrong on their scale, they are the larger HTLs for the ISD 1 varient. The guns take up most of the slots if you zoom in, and given the size of the slots this indicates that these guns are larger then those found on the ISD2 variant.

By emplacements I meant the individual batteries. The ISD I had 10 heavy batteries (including ion cannons) and at least 5 medium batteries. The ISD II had only 8 heavy batteries.

The physical gun size counts for galven circuts, and HDS actually worked out that the ISD II's main guns' barrels are weaker than those of the ISD I, but the entire gun is proportionally more powerful.

As it's WEG info, I agree that it is possible that they fucked that up. But without anything to back it...

Well there's the Mon Remonda serving as a flagship years after the Home One model was introduced and outgunning an Executor with her broadside (pretty big for 1200 meters) vs. the Iron Fist's fore guns (on a wedge shaped ship, there's going to be plenty). It even got a few good shots through the shields. And remember the author intended for it to be a 1200 meter cruiser vs. an 8000 meter WEG SSD.

Then there's the MC90 serving as the purely military battlecruiser and serving as a commandship in lieu of the Home One type again, and the Galactic Voyager stood up to an extended pounding at the sole attention of the Knight Hammer (which was undamaged and fully up-to-specs).

Just based on the fact that these situations were penned with the presumption of 1200 meter cruiser vs. 8000 meter WEG SSD, I think something's awry.

[Ender]

The physical gun size counts for galven circuts, and HDS actually worked out that the ISD II's main guns' barrels are weaker than those of the ISD I, but the entire gun is proportionally more powerful.

I have never seen HDS's work. But I will simply say this: For an ISD1 to meet the same BDZ requirements as an ISD2, it must have greater guns.

Well there's the Mon Remonda serving as a flagship years after the Home One model was introduced and outgunning an Executor with her broadside (pretty big for 1200 meters) vs. the Iron Fist's fore guns (on a wedge shaped ship, there's going to be plenty). It even got a few good shots through the shields. And remember the author intended for it to be a 1200 meter cruiser vs. an 8000 meter WEG SSD.

Then there's the MC90 serving as the purely military battlecruiser and serving as a commandship in lieu of the Home One type again, and the Galactic Voyager stood up to an extended pounding at the sole attention of the Knight Hammer (which was undamaged and fully up-to-specs).

Just based on the fact that these situations were penned with the presumption of 1200 meter cruiser vs. 8000 meter WEG SSD, I think something's awry.

Is it screwy? yes. But is it anything definitive? no.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Is it screwy? yes. But is it anything definitive? no.

I know. I was just noting the circumstancial evidence.

[Sea Skimmer]

Simple comparisons of length are pretty meaningless, its the relative mass's that really would. But since we don't know those so internal volume can suffice. The designed mission is also very important, the Executors where command ships and no doubt gave over a lot of space and power for C4i equipment. Indeed I'd bet part of the reason for the great length and relatively small width and height was to allow all the communications antennas to be spaced well apart to avoid mutual interference. The unknown 8-klick warships may also be a command vessel also with a disproportionately small shielding and firepower.

After all just look at the USN's Blue Ridge class command ships, they displace almost 19,000 tons and mounts a number of self defence missile and gun mounts. But pit one against a 4000 ton frigate or an even smaller corvette and the small ship wins because its designed and armed to kill people and break things rather then telling others what to break and kill.

[Stormbringer]

I have never seen HDS's work. But I will simply say this: For an ISD1 to meet the same BDZ requirements as an ISD2, it must have greater guns.

Or that the ISD2 has capability in excess of what is required for a minimum DBZ. They don't have to have equal firepower you know.

[Agent R]

When did this discussion turn from YV numbers to the length and firepower of Mon Cal cruisers and Star Destroyers?

[Sea Skimmer]

The ship that seems to make the most appearances is their destroyer, which is 440 meters long (NJO SB says it is a frigate, but the higher ranking novels say a frigate is smaller and faster at ~150 meters)

You know its possibul they have multiple types of each, heck its possibul two ships of the same length and hull volume could be classified differently depending on there equipment scale and this has been done by more then one fleet on earth. On the other hand one 440 might be 70 meters wide and 70 high with a block coefficient of .5 giving it a volume of about a million cubic meters while the other ship might be 440x60x60x.45 and have only about 700,000 cubic meters of hull volume. That's a rather large difference, easily enough to make one a frigate while the other is a destroyer. Course I made up the extra figures up but it illustrates the point.

[PainRack]

Original ship figures stated 1000 warships. I would assume this is either worldships, or ships of sufficient tonnage that the NR military considered a serious threat at the time, as the bulk of YV ships are <600 meters, which is frigate scale at best.

I always assumed that those figures indicated the size of the YV force that attacked NR planets and missed out on the wave of reinforcements coming in with the worldships.

Also, isn't the fact that the ISD II was reconfigured to have a heavier gun emplacement due to the threat of Rebel starfighters? This would seem to suggest that the ISD II guns were more numerous, rapid firing but had less firepower so as to deal against small craft, whereas the ISD I was configured to be a ship killer.

[His Divine Shadow]

I believe we've gone over which ISD model was the more powerfull, and official evidence does say the ISD2 is more powerfull.

[Sea Skimmer]

Also, isn't the fact that the ISD II was reconfigured to have a heavier gun emplacement due to the threat of Rebel starfighters? This would seem to suggest that the ISD II guns were more numerous, rapid firing but had less firepower so as to deal against small craft, whereas the ISD I was configured to be a ship killer.

No that's not why and its always been stated to be simply more powerful overall. There's no point in converting the main battery for such a heavy ship to fight star fighters when its already got hundreds of individual anti star fighter mounts. Adding sixteen more that fire a million times more energy gains you nothing but losses a lot.

[Ender]

I have never seen HDS's work. But I will simply say this: For an ISD1 to meet the same BDZ requirements as an ISD2, it must have greater guns.

Or that the ISD2 has capability in excess of what is required for a minimum DBZ. They don't have to have equal firepower you know.

I made a BDZ calculator a while back for determining firepower. It gives out numbers for a variable planet for Melting the crust, turning all cities to smoking rubble, Even cratering, atmospheric blowoff, and boiling away the oceans before melting the crust. I plug in for 3 ISD mark 1 (the force present at Dankyo) and one ISD mark 2. With the same rate of fire and hour long timeframe, the 3 ISDs still have to have a heavier yield per each shot in all categories.

An ISD 2 would have to be worth 6 ISD ones for its HTLs to be more powerful. We know there is a rough parity, so this clearly cannot be the case.

[Ender]

I believe we've gone over which ISD model was the more powerfull, and official evidence does say the ISD2 is more powerfull.

And "more powerful" does not translate directly into "stronger HTLs". I can make a ship more powerful by increasing the power routed to shields, by swapping out my LTLs for MTLs, or any number of ways.