Earth Liberation Front strikes again!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I don't consider setting fire to an SUV as a terrorist activity. It's vandalism, not terrorism. As long as they don't kill anyone, they will remain high profile vandals.

They're fanatics engaging in a coordinated guerrilla campaign to disrupt the economic commerce of this nation. They say so themselves. More than enough reason to put them up on terrorism charges for all I care (obviously not send them to GITMO, though, like someone suggested--they are domestic terrorists). We also need to look into the possibility that more "reputable" enviromental groups are providing them with funding.

[Darth Wong]

I don't consider setting fire to an SUV as a terrorist activity. It's vandalism, not terrorism. As long as they don't kill anyone, they will remain high profile vandals.

Well, the ELF and the ALF are have been on the Justice departments list of home-grown Terrorists since the days of the Clinton Administration.

The government decides they're terrorists therefore they are? Wow, you're just chock full of fallacies, aren't you? Can you guess the name of the one you just committed?

I'm no fan of eco-nutjobs, but terrorism is normally an act of politically motivated violence against people, not inanimate objects.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The government decides they're terrorists therefore they are? Wow, you're just chock full of fallacies, aren't you? Can you guess the name of the one you just committed?

I'm no fan of eco-nutjobs, but terrorism is normally an act of politically motivated violence against people, not inanimate objects.

One could argue that economic warfare is more effective than killing individuals in some cases--at least before the Islamists refined the later to a science. Carlos the Jackal was once considered a major terrorist figure and yet he's been eclipsed by some serial killers, let alone Osama. Terrorism is definitely about motivation rather than target, I'd submit.

[Colonel Olrik]

Terrorism is definitely about motivation rather than target, I'd submit.

I don't think so. Are the antiglobalization rioters terrorists? The french idiot with a moustach, Bouvé, is he a terrorist? They target property and are certainly criminals, they defend moronic ideas but they do not, should not qualify as terrorists. It's an error to abuse the word, and we must be extremely careful when labeling a certain group as terrorist.

Terrorist, to me, is a group that uses violence on principle, and not as a last resort, and that doesn't mind with targeting people, civilian or not. They sometimes consider a high body count as a favourable factor, but not all of them do (ETA targets mainly military and politicians, and warns when there's a bomb in a crowded area).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I don't think so. Are the antiglobalization rioters terrorists? The french idiot with a moustach, Bouvé, is he a terrorist? They target property and are certainly criminals, they defend moronic ideas but they do not, should not qualify as terrorists. It's an error to abuse the word, and we must be extremely careful when labeling a certain group as terrorist.

Terrorist, to me, is a group that uses violence on principle, and not as a last resort, and that doesn't mind with targeting people, civilian or not. They sometimes consider a high body count as a favourable factor, but not all of them do (ETA targets mainly military and politicians, and warns when there's a bomb in a crowded area).

Terrorism is just a form of warfare, and I think it would be wrong to give the word too much value as opposed too little, as well. These people are trying to wage a guerrilla war against their own government (and, more precisely, against civilization)--and they're choosing economic targets instead of people as targets. A rioting or other action of discontent is a really seperate spasm from an organized military act--which, especially thanks to the internet, it is not impossible for the efforts of these groups (and with the fund I suspect is siphoned off from the various greater organizations) to engage in.

Ultimately, it is a little piff-poff, yes, like a minor rebellion in the provinces or somesuch, but it does deserve attention lest it grow through inaction.

[Vympel]

Ultimately, it is a little piff-poff, yes, like a minor rebellion in the provinces or somesuch, but it does deserve attention lest it grow through inaction.

*scribbles 'piff-poff' into memory bank for future use*

[EmperorSolo51]

The government decides they're terrorists therefore they are? Wow, you're just chock full of fallacies, aren't you? Can you guess the name of the one you just committed?

I'm no fan of eco-nutjobs, but terrorism is normally an act of politically motivated violence against people, not inanimate objects.

Burning SUV's is not the only reason they are terrorists. The ELF and ALF have broken into Medical facillities and have torched them. They have attacked people who own and operate Chicken and cattle farms, They have sent death-threats to owners of logging companies. This violence is politically motivated becuase they want to turn the Us into some ec-freindly marxist state.

[kojikun]

I'm listening to 2Sense and hes mentioning how some guy wrote in about the best way to burn SUVs. LOL

[theski]

Here is the link to their web site.... a little spooky... Yikes

http://www.earthliberationfront.com/main.shtml

[Darth Wong]

Here is the link to their web site.... a little spooky... Yikes

http://www.earthliberationfront.com/main.shtml

Definitely disturbing, since they give people instructions on how to commit arson. However, they only brag about actions taken against buildings under construction (their bizarre justification is that they're fighting "urban sprawl" ) with no human casualties; they are arsonists and should be locked up because arson is a serious criminal offense, but I still don't see how they're terrorists.

[EmperorSolo51]

Here is the link to their web site.... a little spooky... Yikes

http://www.earthliberationfront.com/main.shtml

Definitely disturbing, since they give people instructions on how to commit arson. However, they only brag about actions taken against buildings under construction (their bizarre justification is that they're fighting "urban sprawl" ) with no human casualties; they are arsonists and should be locked up because arson is a serious criminal offense, but I still don't see how they're terrorists.

That's not all they do. They and thier sister organization ALF as well as Greenpeace have done a lot of things aiming to disrupt the economies and daily lives of Americans and others. They break into medical facilties where life saving- vaccines are tested on Animals, they have attacked people who own and operate chicken and Cattle farms, they have sent death-threats to owners of logging companies and a couple years back, Greenpeace tried to break into a nuclear submarine.

[MKSheppard]

A suspect caught on videotape is shown by the FBI which is investigating the arson case involving SUVS. The suspect shown in video wearing a cap in West Covina Calif.., Friday, August 22, 2003, where apparent arson fires destroyed or damanged dozens of Hummers and other SUVs early Friday. (AP Photo/FBI)

[TrailerParkJawa]

A suspect caught on videotape is shown by the FBI which is investigating the arson case involving SUVS. The suspect shown in video wearing a cap in West Covina Calif.., Friday, August 22, 2003, where apparent arson fires destroyed or damanged dozens of Hummers and other SUVs early Friday. (AP Photo/FBI)

I wonder if there is a reward for catching these guys. Id happily turn them in if I saw supsicious activity around an SUV lot. Sooner or later some citizen out for a late night stroll or just driving from to and fro is gonna see one of these trash and get a plate. Id be curious to see what kind of car they drive. I bet its not a smallish Geo metro.

[Peregrin Toker]

Id be curious to see what kind of car they drive. I bet its not a smallish Geo metro.

They probably don't own cars at all.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Id be curious to see what kind of car they drive. I bet its not a smallish Geo metro.

They probably don't own cars at all.

Actually you would be surprised. Ever take a look at what kind of cars frothing at the mouth environmentalists drive? Jeeps, vans, etc. Its not uncommon for many of them to have low mileage cars, they just dont think YOU should have one.

Some of them might live what they preach but most wont.

[Colonel Olrik]

Actually you would be surprised. Ever take a look at what kind of cars frothing at the mouth environmentalists drive? Jeeps, vans, etc. Its not uncommon for many of them to have low mileage cars, they just dont think YOU should have one.

Some of them might live what they preach but most wont.

I'll just point out that "serious" environmentalists may own jeeps and still be perfectly coherent, as long as their grip is with the way people misuse the cars, and not with owning them. People who own Range Rovers exclusively to drive in the city and have never gone to the countryside, never mind off road, tend to piss me off. Imbeciles looking for a status they don't deserve.

[Col. Crackpot]

Here is the link to their web site.... a little spooky... Yikes

http://www.earthliberationfront.com/main.shtml

Definitely disturbing, since they give people instructions on how to commit arson. However, they only brag about actions taken against buildings under construction (their bizarre justification is that they're fighting "urban sprawl" ) with no human casualties; they are arsonists and should be locked up because arson is a serious criminal offense, but I still don't see how they're terrorists.

[url=ttp://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism]te·ror·ism[/url] n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

the act of violently destroying property in an attempt to intimidate or coerce meets the dictionary definition of terrorism

[TrailerParkJawa]

I'll just point out that "serious" environmentalists may own jeeps and still be perfectly coherent, as long as their grip is with the way people misuse the cars, and not with owning them. People who own Range Rovers exclusively to drive in the city and have never gone to the countryside, never mind off road, tend to piss me off. Imbeciles looking for a status they don't deserve.

I agree with that, but I also think it can go both ways. Just owning an SUV by itself doesnt mean you are an environmental killer. I know people who take mass transit everyday to work, yet still have an SUV for ski trips.

My basic point , having gone to school with some people like this, is that most like to control others, scream about agenda's they give little thought too and are in general green fundies.

[Peregrin Toker]

Id be curious to see what kind of car they drive. I bet its not a smallish Geo metro.

They probably don't own cars at all.

Actually you would be surprised. Ever take a look at what kind of cars frothing at the mouth environmentalists drive? Jeeps, vans, etc. Its not uncommon for many of them to have low mileage cars, they just dont think YOU should have one.

However, don't be surprised if most car-driving environmentalists swear by diesels. Since diesel engines (particularly Commonrail ones) tend to be more fuel-efficient than their petrol-powered counterparts, many enviromentalists would rather drive a diesel car than a "normal" one. And most SUVs are able with diesel versions - in fact, I think the most popular variant of the Land Rover Defender is the diesel-powered one.

BTW - I don't know many environmentalists, but in any case I find it rather ironic that some of them drive gas-guzzlers. In fact, there was once a joke in a newpaper about Denmark's Minister of Environment driving the most polluting car of all politicians!! (I think it was an Audi A8 - stretch version)

Why would they drive vehicles their political creed apparently forbids them from driving? Schizophrenia?

[TrailerParkJawa]

However, don't be surprised if most car-driving environmentalists swear by diesels. Since diesel engines (particularly Commonrail ones) tend to be more fuel-efficient than their petrol-powered counterparts, many enviromentalists would rather drive a diesel car than a "normal" one. And most SUVs are able with diesel versions - in fact, I think the most popular variant of the Land Rover Defender is the diesel-powered one.

BTW - I don't know many environmentalists, but in any case I find it rather ironic that some of them drive gas-guzzlers. In fact, there was once a joke in a newpaper about Denmark's Minister of Environment driving the most polluting car of all politicians!! (I think it was an Audi A8 - stretch version)

Why would they drive vehicles their political creed apparently forbids them from driving? Schizophrenia?

Funny you mention diesels. There are some environmental groups here that want to clamp down on diesels cause of they dont like the particulates associated with diesels. Yet, you are right, many environmentalists praise diesels. I think this is leads to a situation sorta like when some groups attack a food for being unhealthy and another says its okay. Sooner or later Joe Public starts to tune both sides out.

[Iceberg]

Here is the link to their web site.... a little spooky... Yikes

http://www.earthliberationfront.com/main.shtml

Definitely disturbing, since they give people instructions on how to commit arson. However, they only brag about actions taken against buildings under construction (their bizarre justification is that they're fighting "urban sprawl" ) with no human casualties; they are arsonists and should be locked up because arson is a serious criminal offense, but I still don't see how they're terrorists.

They've destroyed research - sometimes decades' worth - released millions of dollars worth of experimental animals and caused millions more - possibly as high as a billion dollars - worth of damage to the University of Minnesota over the years, in the name of halting any form of medical research that involves animals in ANY WAY.

And just because they brag about the stuff that hasn't hurt people and disclaim what has doesn't mean they ACTUALLY believe that shit - one ALF cell was caught near the U of M hospital a few years back with a kerosene and material to make several torches - it was believed that they were trying to set fire to several of the hospital's ambulances, and you CAN'T tell me that that wouldn't have killed people (indirectly, by hampering EMS's ability to get to people in trouble).

The ALF/ELF's goal is to try to terrorize people into changing in order to meet their political desires, and that sounds like the definition of terrorism to me, whether lives are lost in the process or not.

[Peregrin Toker]

Funny you mention diesels. There are some environmental groups here that want to clamp down on diesels cause of they dont like the particulates associated with diesels. Yet, you are right, many environmentalists praise diesels. I think this is leads to a situation sorta like when some groups attack a food for being unhealthy and another says its okay. Sooner or later Joe Public starts to tune both sides out.

Actually, a British magazine called "Diesel Car" is very fond of ranting about how much more economical diesels are than petrol-burners.

[Stormbringer]

Why we don't do more about these people is beyond me. They're dangerous and they are most certainly terrorists. Their tactis and ideaology certainly fit the definiton. It's only a matter of time before they do kill people with their arson. All it takes is a late work day and they'll end up killing people directly.

[The Yosemite Bear]

A suspect caught on videotape is shown by the FBI which is investigating the arson case involving SUVS. The suspect shown in video wearing a cap in West Covina Calif.., Friday, August 22, 2003, where apparent arson fires destroyed or damanged dozens of Hummers and other SUVs early Friday. (AP Photo/FBI)

I wonder if there is a reward for catching these guys. Id happily turn them in if I saw supsicious activity around an SUV lot. Sooner or later some citizen out for a late night stroll or just driving from to and fro is gonna see one of these trash and get a plate. Id be curious to see what kind of car they drive. I bet its not a smallish Geo metro.

lol, yeah the group that came to yosemite for the "Ban Cars from Yosemite" rally all came solo, in big fucking huge cars....

And they gave me shit about my Geo which I only use for Dr.'s appointments and the like.

[Darth Wong]

Definitely disturbing, since they give people instructions on how to commit arson. However, they only brag about actions taken against buildings under construction (their bizarre justification is that they're fighting "urban sprawl" ) with no human casualties; they are arsonists and should be locked up because arson is a serious criminal offense, but I still don't see how they're terrorists.

[url=ttp://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism]te·ror·ism[/url] n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

the act of violently destroying property in an attempt to intimidate or coerce meets the dictionary definition of terrorism

Ah, I see. I appear to have been subscribing to a narrowed definition of terrorism propagated by the American media outlets who have found ways to classify organized Israeli destruction of Palestinian property (for the purposes of removing them from desired territory) as something other than terrorism. Thanks for the clarification.