Buchanan's thoughts on the death of manufacturing

[Darth Wong]

I suppose I should point out to everybody that I spent 9 years working in the domestic auto industry. And yes, I drive a Mercury.

[Glocksman]

NB is U.S., eh? They make damn good shoes.

Some are, some aren't.
Check the labels.

[Stuart Mackey]

The rise of free trade has eroded America’s industrial base and with it our sovereignty.


By Patrick J. Buchanan

snip
In 2002, we ran a trade deficit in goods of $484 billion. This May, it reached the level of $562 billion, nearly 6 percent of GDP. Evangelists of free trade tell us trade deficits do not matter. Michael Boskin, Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under Bush I, declared, “It does not make any difference whether a country makes computer chips or potato chips.”

History teaches otherwise. In 1860, Britain abandoned its Britain First trade policy for the free-trade faith of David Ricardo, John Stuart Mill, and Richard Cobden. By World War I, Britain, which produced twice what America did in 1860, produced less than half and had been surpassed by a Germany that did not even exist in 1860.

snip

No wonder this guy is a laughing stock, he cannot get his history right.
Britian lost its economic edge for a couple of very good reasons.

1) Resting on laurels. The Brits got ot the top first and figured that no one else would challange that. They never modenised thier infrastructure, plant or managment practices in a planned or logical manner. The result being that Germany and America scuppered them.

2)An Empire that they would not develop. It does not help your cause if you have a large continant that is a drain on the exchequer or the rest of the empire for that matter. The move in the 20's and 30's towards informal empire was too little and too late. If you have an empire, make sure it can purchace your products and prefers your products to that of other nations.

[beyond hope]

Here's a question: what impact do y'all think subsidies have on industries like steel and auto, and what would be the effect of cutting them off? I've heard it said that subsidies can be blamed for the failure of those two industries to modernize, since they've historically been insulated from foreign competition.

[Darth Wong]

Subsidies are a crutch. They allow an inferior competitor to stay afloat against a superior competitor. In theory, they give "breathing room" for the inferior competitor to improve his position, but in practice, they allow the inferior competitor to rest on his laurels. When accountants run industries, the inevitable result is that they will always spend the least amount of money necessary to keep the wheels turning, and sometimes not even that.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip
When accountants run industries, the inevitable result is that they will always spend the least amount of money necessary to keep the wheels turning, and sometimes not even that.

Which is why its a good idea to keep accountants away from the levers of power, as it were, in industry. Accountants are good at bean counting and should stick to it.

[beyond hope]

That was the impression I got. IIRC US Steel hasn't modernized anything since the '60s. The net result of the auto tariffs (and related barriers to free trade, like the higher MPG requirements for imports) is that people will pay extra for an import. Would cutting the price supports and forcing those industries to compete again save them or kill them, though?

[Darth Wong]

That was the impression I got. IIRC US Steel hasn't modernized anything since the '60s. The net result of the auto tariffs (and related barriers to free trade, like the higher MPG requirements for imports) is that people will pay extra for an import. Would cutting the price supports and forcing those industries to compete again save them or kill them, though?

Some would die, some might survive. It's hard to say, but when we create the "boy in a bubble" syndrome, the problem is that he's basically defenseless. Poke a hole in the bubble and he immediately dies. The longer he's in there, the worse it is.

[Stuart Mackey]

That was the impression I got. IIRC US Steel hasn't modernized anything since the '60s. The net result of the auto tariffs (and related barriers to free trade, like the higher MPG requirements for imports) is that people will pay extra for an import. Would cutting the price supports and forcing those industries to compete again save them or kill them, though?

Some would die, some might survive. It's hard to say, but when we create the "boy in a bubble" syndrome, the problem is that he's basically defenseless. Poke a hole in the bubble and he immediately dies. The longer he's in there, the worse it is.

NZ had a massivly protected agriculture sector untill the mid 80's. The protection was removed as it was unsustainable. A few farmers did go under, but the result was a farming sector that is arguably one of the most efficient in the world. Of cource a lot depends on how protected overseas markets are.

[beyond hope]

That was the impression I got. IIRC US Steel hasn't modernized anything since the '60s. The net result of the auto tariffs (and related barriers to free trade, like the higher MPG requirements for imports) is that people will pay extra for an import. Would cutting the price supports and forcing those industries to compete again save them or kill them, though?

Some would die, some might survive. It's hard to say, but when we create the "boy in a bubble" syndrome, the problem is that he's basically defenseless. Poke a hole in the bubble and he immediately dies. The longer he's in there, the worse it is.

NZ had a massivly protected agriculture sector untill the mid 80's. The protection was removed as it was unsustainable. A few farmers did go under, but the result was a farming sector that is arguably one of the most efficient in the world. Of cource a lot depends on how protected overseas markets are.

I'm not familiar with NZ's farm industry but I did end up having to look into the Canadian system (which pays out a pittance in subsidies compared to the US or EU.) I've always thought it was the best way to go myself, but I can imagine the hue and cry that would go up if you tried to cut the farm welfare off.

[Stuart Mackey]

Some would die, some might survive. It's hard to say, but when we create the "boy in a bubble" syndrome, the problem is that he's basically defenseless. Poke a hole in the bubble and he immediately dies. The longer he's in there, the worse it is.

NZ had a massivly protected agriculture sector untill the mid 80's. The protection was removed as it was unsustainable. A few farmers did go under, but the result was a farming sector that is arguably one of the most efficient in the world. Of cource a lot depends on how protected overseas markets are.

I'm not familiar with NZ's farm industry but I did end up having to look into the Canadian system (which pays out a pittance in subsidies compared to the US or EU.) I've always thought it was the best way to go myself, but I can imagine the hue and cry that would go up if you tried to cut the farm welfare off.

From what I have seen the American farming industry survives on subsidies. NZ and Aussie's biggest beef with American farming is the subsidies, as we offer a better product for a better price and they know it and scream for more subsidies as a result.

[MKSheppard]

I smell bullshit. I think the author of this article is seriously exaggerating, by making it seem as if exotic technology is being exported.

Ok then - there are only two places where you can mine the stuff. One is in
California, and the other is in China. Guess what happened to the mine in
California? Yep. It got shut down by Dianne Feinstein who made the land
around the mine part of a new nature preserve...and this is the woman with
deep connections to Chinese business.....

Someone tell me that buying a vital strategic mineral from a possible future
enemy is good...

[Coyote]

Well, if we can use up the resources of a potential enemy first, while keeping ours untapped... not all the oil wells in the US are played out, after all, and as long as it is cheaper to get petroleum from rivals...

But as to the jobs and labor issue, the problem has been brought up here-- American labor is so high not only because of the expectations of the American worker for a certain level of lifestyle; the corporations are forced to adhere to costly regulations that protect workers and teh envionment.

But relocating to a Third World country where workers can be slaved away in sweatshops for 16 hour days, all week, all year; by-products dumped in the town well and dangerous machinery left exposed, well... without all those pesky regulations it becomes cheaper for a company to make money. Corporations do not adhere to safety and enviro regs out of the goodness of their hearts; they are only going for the money and would gleefully use slave labor if they thought it would improve their bottom line.

In most industrialized nations there are Labor Boards or some sort of government or social advocacy group that ensures the workers' rights. Some sort of international framework would have to be in place to enforce a bare minimum standard for work conditions, safety, and environmental responsibility.

I don't like the idea of a 'global minimum wage' but something may have to be instituted where workers are paid a certain ammount the reflects local living conditions. For example, you can't pay a guy in Senegal a $25.00 an hour wage just because that's what Americans expect-- their economy would be irrevocably destroyed. For them the equivilent might be $2.00 an hour (instead of $2.00 a week). They'd be happy with that and it would allow them a decent standard of life that reflects their region.

The idea is to not only get labor markets and prices to stabilize-- but to keep corporations from following the downward spiral to the lowest-paying country that treats its workers in conditions that are beyond inhumane and corrupt the environment to make a buck.

Yeah, yeah, I know: "What, Coyote propsing the Communist Internationale of workers?" [heart attack] [/heart attack]. Perhaps, but for the benefit of consumers and to stabilize markets for pesky capitalist bosses, so there!

[Darth Wong]

Ok then - there are only two places where you can mine the stuff. One is in California, and the other is in China. Guess what happened to the mine in California? Yep. It got shut down by Dianne Feinstein who made the land around the mine part of a new nature preserve...and this is the woman with deep connections to Chinese business.....

Someone tell me that buying a vital strategic mineral from a possible future enemy is good...

Irrelevant. If your facts are correct (and I rather doubt that there are only two places on Earth where you can find neodymium), this would still be the case regardless of whether a particular motor manufacturing plant moves offshore.

[MKSheppard]

Irrelevant. If your facts are correct (and I rather doubt that there are only two places on Earth where you can find neodymium), this would still be the case regardless of whether a particular motor manufacturing plant moves offshore.

Are you that fucking stupid and dense?

Did you not read the article part that said:

Word of the shutdown comes as the company is producing critical parts for the U.S. Joint Direct Attack Munition [JDAM] project, more widely known as smart bombs, raising heavy security issues related to the transfer of military technology to the PRC
...

According to documents obtained by Insight, Magnequench UG currently is producing thousands of the rare-earth magnets for "SL Montevideo Tech," a Minnesota-based manufacturer of servos. That company confirmed to Insight that it holds a Department of Defense [DoD] contract to produce the high-tech motors for the precision-guided JDAM.

A company that is making a vital part of the JDAM munition is moving
their entire fucking factory that makes said vital part to a future enemy,
and all you can say is "so?"

We've already had problems with JDAM parts supply, when during the
Iraqi war, a Swiss company refused to sell us parts needed to make
JDAMs.

[Wicked Pilot]

Toilet paper is also vital to our military. I doubt anyone would give a shit if China was producing that too.

[Peregrin Toker]

Subsidies are a crutch. They allow an inferior competitor to stay afloat against a superior competitor. In theory, they give "breathing room" for the inferior competitor to improve his position, but in practice, they allow the inferior competitor to rest on his laurels. When accountants run industries, the inevitable result is that they will always spend the least amount of money necessary to keep the wheels turning, and sometimes not even that.

Don't these subsidies at least slow down the creation of monopolies by allowing some of the competiting corporations to survive longer? (At least, I think this is the intention - I don't think it works as planned)

[Darth Wong]

Irrelevant. If your facts are correct (and I rather doubt that there are only two places on Earth where you can find neodymium), this would still be the case regardless of whether a particular motor manufacturing plant moves offshore.

Are you that fucking stupid and dense?

No, you are. Neodymium iron-boron magnets are sold on a fucking STORE SHELF, you idiot! What part of "I can go to Dufferin St. and buy one for $10" do you not understand?

Did you not read the article part that said:

Word of the shutdown comes as the company is producing critical parts for the U.S. Joint Direct Attack Munition [JDAM] project, more widely known as smart bombs, raising heavy security issues related to the transfer of military technology to the PRC
...

According to documents obtained by Insight, Magnequench UG currently is producing thousands of the rare-earth magnets for "SL Montevideo Tech," a Minnesota-based manufacturer of servos. That company confirmed to Insight that it holds a Department of Defense [DoD] contract to produce the high-tech motors for the precision-guided JDAM.

A company that is making a vital part of the JDAM munition is moving
their entire fucking factory that makes said vital part to a future enemy,
and all you can say is "so?"

Yes, because that vital part is not exotic or difficult to obtain. Would you freak out if someone discovered that a plant making hydraulic cylinders was moving to China because hydraulic cylinders are used in fighter aircraft?

We've already had problems with JDAM parts supply, when during the Iraqi war, a Swiss company refused to sell us parts needed to make
JDAMs.

And that has precisely what to do with your idiotic assertion that the manufacture of a common store-bought item often found in goddamned stereo loudspeakers is a matter of vital national security?

[MKSheppard]

And that has precisely what to do with your idiotic assertion that the manufacture of a common store-bought item often found in goddamned stereo loudspeakers is a matter of vital national security?

Except these aren't fucking stereo loudspeakers, but specific
parts DESIGNED for use in a guided bomb unit which is vital
to our Air Force.

[Sea Skimmer]

A company that is making a vital part of the JDAM munition is moving
their entire fucking factory that makes said vital part to a future enemy,
and all you can say is "so?"

I remember when that first came up. It's a load of crap, the only thing that's moving is the currently contracted producer of the magnet and the magnets are available from multiple sources. If the PRC tired to embargo them we could simply but them from one of a dozen other companies both in the US and outside of it.

The risk to national security is zilch. If you really want to be concerned about military parts coming form other countries you should look into something more significant then a mere magnet, rather more substantial parts like entire Multi Function displays get imported from Europe and Asia.

Fact is it doesn't matter, modern military equipment can't be produced very fast, so even if the supply f parts is interrupted it won't matter because the war will be over by the item its an issue. Modern wars are fought with what's in the arsenal; a conflict which is won on the assembly line isn't in the foreseeable future. That's one more reason why I hate Klinton so much, he ran our war stocks into the ground without replenishing them which could have crippled the US military if not for Bush getting tens of billions in extra funding to make up the shortfall with entirely new plants being built to build things such as the JDAM kits. In the past two years we've actually tripled JDAM production by adding a third shift an a new factory.

[Darth Wong]

And that has precisely what to do with your idiotic assertion that the manufacture of a common store-bought item often found in goddamned stereo loudspeakers is a matter of vital national security?

Except these aren't fucking stereo loudspeakers, but specific parts DESIGNED for use in a guided bomb unit which is vital to our Air Force.

You are evading the point that they are not exotic, nor are they protected technology in any way. The fact that they are shaped a certain way to fit into a particular piece of military technology doesn't mean dick.

You are barking up the wrong tree and everybody knows it but you. You have to be blind and stupid to think these magnets are a threat to national security.

[Stuart Mackey]

Toilet paper is also vital to our military. I doubt anyone would give a shit if China was producing that too.

*Groan* thats terrible..