U.S Armored Troops prefer the AK

[Vympel]

That is the problem with that design philosophy. I never said I was in wholehearted agreement with it, but it would be a mistake to think that that sort of thinking has not affected our small arms design; it has. If I had my druthers, we would be using an update of the AR18 design, but in a slightly more substantial caliber than 5.56mm (though not so large as 7.62mm NATO, which is too powerful a round for a true assault rifle).

Something in 6mm perhaps? There's a few experimental 6mm rounds floating around e.g. Russian 6x49mm. And then there's big close quarter fighting rounds, like the 9x39mm.

[Vympel]

The Dragunov might be accurate enough up to its specifed ranges, but the sniper team guys in my platoon said it was really a shitty weapon to use compared to the actual sniper rifles (SAKO 7.62x54) they used, mostly because it weighs almost nothing and consequently kicks like a mule when you fire it. The damn thing actually weighs a lot less than a typical AK.

Indeed it's not a real sniper rifle- the pro Russian military marksmen are equipped with better rifles- the SV-98 bolt-action (almost double the weight of the Dragunov), or the big OSV-96 12.7x108mm anti-material rifles etc. The Dragunov is just a standard squad level weapon to extend the range a bit.

[MKSheppard]

Something in 6mm perhaps? There's a few experimental 6mm rounds floating around e.g. Russian 6x49mm. And then there's big close quarter fighting rounds, like the 9x39mm.

Nein. 7.62 x 39

[Perinquus]

That is the problem with that design philosophy. I never said I was in wholehearted agreement with it, but it would be a mistake to think that that sort of thinking has not affected our small arms design; it has. If I had my druthers, we would be using an update of the AR18 design, but in a slightly more substantial caliber than 5.56mm (though not so large as 7.62mm NATO, which is too powerful a round for a true assault rifle).

Something in 6mm perhaps? There's a few experimental 6mm rounds floating around e.g. Russian 6x49mm. And then there's big close quarter fighting rounds, like the 9x39mm.

Something like that, yes. There is an experimental cartridge called the 6mm Optimum that may be ideal. It is a 6x48mm round. A 100-grain, 6mm projectile that is launched at close to 3000 fps would have not only the flat trajectory of the .300 Win Mag, but it should also have penetration capability on a par with 7.62 NATO. The larger bullet would also allow improved tracer performance, and it should have better stopping power than the 5.56mm.

Here's a link to some info about it:
http://www.g2mil.com/6mm_optimum_cartridge.htm

I seem to remember the Navy sponsoring a squad automatic weapon in an intermediate caliber like this back in the Vietnam era that was very promising, but it was dropped for financial and logistical reasons as Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara had already commited the U.S. military to the AR15 and the 5.56mm.

[Vympel]

Something in 6mm perhaps? There's a few experimental 6mm rounds floating around e.g. Russian 6x49mm. And then there's big close quarter fighting rounds, like the 9x39mm.

Nein. 7.62 x 39

It tumbles- but in close quarters it's preferred to the 5.45x39mm-the latter tends to ricochet more, so I hear. Actually, now that I think of it, only the Interior Ministry uses the Groza in 9x39mm, the Army has taken Grozas in 7.62x39mm- whether that's an issue of "we have billions of 7.62x39mm rounds" or "we prefer it to this fancy new thing" I don't know.

(waits for Sea Skimmer to jump all over Perinquus for using g2mil.com )

[Edi]

Nein. 7.62 x 39

It tumbles- but in close quarters it's preferred to the 5.45x39mm-the latter tends to ricochet more, so I hear. Actually, now that I think of it, only the Interior Ministry uses the Groza in 9x39mm, the Army has taken Grozas in 7.62x39mm- whether that's an issue of "we have billions of 7.62x39mm rounds" or "we prefer it to this fancy new thing" I don't know.

(waits for Sea Skimmer to jump all over Perinquus for using g2mil.com )

The problem with the 5.45 and 5.56 rounds is that they tend to ricochet when they hit a thicker than average spiderweb, never mind anything more solid like tree branches. One of the reasons we use the standard AK with the 7.62 caliber is that every single twig in our copious forests doesn't make shots go awry. This is what we were told anyway, but if I'm off base here, feel free to use my post for a chewtoy...

Edi

[MKSheppard]

(waits for Sea Skimmer to jump all over Perinquus for using g2mil.com )

Reading his site - the guy is a great comedian albeit unintentionally.

[Perinquus]

(waits for Sea Skimmer to jump all over Perinquus for using g2mil.com )

Reading his site - the guy is a great comedian albeit unintentionally.

I really don't know squat about the rest of his site, nor do I particularly care. Regardless of whatever else may be found there, the 6mm optimum cartridge sounds like a good idea (though I'm not sure it could replace the 7.62mm for sniper and machine gun duty as he suggests) because it echoes the 6mm round that was developed in the 60s or 70s and looked very promising for use as a squad light machine gun round. From all I've read, that was a missed opportunity.

I think we certainly need something a little bit bigger and more powerful than the 5.56mm, as recent reports from Iraq and Afghanistan have made clear. It can't be too big or powerful, or it will not be suitable for an assault rifle any more than the 7.62mm NATO was. The 6mm concept sounds like it might fit the bill very well.

[The Dark]

Or they may have followed the Geneva Conventions, which expressly forbid bullets that shatter or tumble upon entering the body. Of course, they also forbid shotguns, and that doesn't stop anyone.

The Geneva and Hague Conventions do not forbid ammo that tumbles, they only forbid bullets that fragment or deform on impact. They also do not forbid shotguns.

The tumbling bullets I believe I was wrong about, after reviewing the Conventions. It was apparently proposed but not accepted. Shotguns are banned for fragmentation ammunition (shot) under Protocol I, Convention on Conventional Weapons, 1980. It was enforced beginning 02 December, 1983. Thus, while they were not illegal at the time of your example, they are currently banned from military usage unless outfitted only with solid slug ammunition. The shotgun has also been argued illegal by Germany under Hague I and IV.

the Hague Convention has been reconvened several times. The last time was in 1956, well after the introduciton of napalm, flamethrowers, white phosphorus, etc. There has been plenty of opportunity either to declare these weapons also to be inhumane, or to change the rules regarding small arms ammunition. They have done neithr of these things, so it remains - illogically - "inhumane" to shoot someone with a fragmenting bullet, but "humane" to roast him to death with incendiaries, shred his body with cluster bombs, or blow his extremities off with landmines.

Convention on Conventional Warfare (again). Protocol I restricts fragmentation weapons, Protocol II restricts landmines, and Protocol III restricts incendiary weapons. Protocol IV forbids laser weapons designed expressly to blind soldiers, and was added in late 1998.

[Sea Skimmer]

(waits for Sea Skimmer to jump all over Perinquus for using g2mil.com )

Well actually the optimum assault rifle cartridge would be 6.25mm so it's not a horribly stupid article, anything 6-7mm would do much better then 5.56 or 7.62. Of course it's also a no shit article since that's been known for decades. That fits with everything else g2.mil, any decent idea on the site isn't remotely original dispute what the morons who write it want you to believe.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip
What everyone should also keep in mind is that I'm talking about good quality AKs here, they aren't all alike. The basic, Soviet AK-47 for example is lower quality overall (though still quite usable, functional and lethal) and less accurate than the Finnish RK-62 (significantly better sights), which is internally an almost exact duplicate. I say almost,, because you can use AK parts to replace damaged RK parts, but not the other way around, because RK parts are just that tiny bit larger that they won't fit.

Edi

Heh. My flattie was in the Soviet army, and one thing he mentioned to me once was that they really liked the M16's accuracy. As to AK relibility..the standing joke in the old Sov army was chinese AK knockoff's .

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Heh. My flattie was in the Soviet army, and one thing he mentioned to me once was that they really liked the M16's accuracy. As to AK relibility..the standing joke in the old Sov army was chinese AK knockoff's .

No doubt. People admire the things they don't have, and even the most robust design can fail if they are made crappily enough

BTW, for curiosity, is he an officer, a Praporschik (sp?) or a conscript?

[Stuart Mackey]

Heh. My flattie was in the Soviet army, and one thing he mentioned to me once was that they really liked the M16's accuracy. As to AK relibility..the standing joke in the old Sov army was chinese AK knockoff's .

No doubt. People admire the things they don't have, and even the most robust design can fail if they are made crappily enough

BTW, for curiosity, is he an officer, a Praporschik (sp?) or a conscript?

Conscript, but he went out the eqivelent of a warrent officer. Sasha was one of the rare intances of the Sov's realising that they had a man who could perform like a western NCO and giving him the oppertunity to do so.

[Vympel]

Just for Perinquus:



Note the soldier in the background.





Looks like captured Iraqi FN FALs are getting a work out. Must be that 7.62x51mm stopping power magic.

[Perinquus]

I've always liked the FAL, though I wasn't aware the Iraqis were using any.

[Vympel]

I've always liked the FAL, though I wasn't aware the Iraqis were using any.

A pretty mixed bag of weapons has been found in Iraq- the logical ones like AKs, the historical curiosities like Lee Enfields, the remnants of US aid (many many Ma Deuces'- still in their packing grease, were sometimes dipped in to by advancing US forces). Or, they may have gotten them from the Aussie SAS (only rifle I've ever used, back when I was like 16, incidentally).

[Stuart Mackey]

I've always liked the FAL, though I wasn't aware the Iraqis were using any.

A pretty mixed bag of weapons has been found in Iraq- the logical ones like AKs, the historical curiosities like Lee Enfields, .

Ahh the SMLE also in use by wankers in the bush in the Solomons..still with Commonweath armies markings {not to mention M1 Garands a plenty}

[Perinquus]

I've got an SMLE, made in Australia at the Lithgow arsenal in 1942. I've been getting split cases when I shoot it though. I think it's a headspace problem. Shouldn't be too hard to fix.

[Stuart Mackey]

I've got an SMLE, made in Australia at the Lithgow arsenal in 1942. I've been getting split cases when I shoot it though. I think it's a headspace problem. Shouldn't be too hard to fix.

Shouldnt be..if in doubt, there are plenty of cheap SMLE's to be had

[Perinquus]

Odd that the thread should take a turn toward the SMLE, especially in light of the fact that we were discussing tumbling bullets. In WWI, .303 British ammo was made with a fiber plug in the nose, underneath the jacket. This made the bullet heavier toward the rear and gave it a pronounced tendency to start tumbling on impact, increasing its wounding capacity.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Stuart Mackey]

Odd that the thread should take a turn toward the SMLE, especially in light of the fact that we were discussing tumbling bullets. In WWI, .303 British ammo was made with a fiber plug in the nose, underneath the jacket. This made the bullet heavier toward the rear and gave it a pronounced tendency to start tumbling on impact, increasing its wounding capacity.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Indeed..and if you want a good stopping bullet, a dum-dum should do the trick..that what they were designed for...

[The Dark]

Odd that the thread should take a turn toward the SMLE, especially in light of the fact that we were discussing tumbling bullets. In WWI, .303 British ammo was made with a fiber plug in the nose, underneath the jacket. This made the bullet heavier toward the rear and gave it a pronounced tendency to start tumbling on impact, increasing its wounding capacity.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Indeed..and if you want a good stopping bullet, a dum-dum should do the trick..that what they were designed for...

Glaser. Take out the target without scratching the walls. Although they're illegal in warfare (as are the dum-dums, but apparently not tumblers...). I've heard good things about the new EFMJ also, though I don't personally know anyone who's tested it. Hollowpoints are too unreliable; they tend to act like regular bullets unless they hit bare skin. Clothing causes hydraulic expansion problems.

[Perinquus]

Glaser. Take out the target without scratching the walls. Although they're illegal in warfare (as are the dum-dums, but apparently not tumblers...). I've heard good things about the new EFMJ also, though I don't personally know anyone who's tested it. Hollowpoints are too unreliable; they tend to act like regular bullets unless they hit bare skin. Clothing causes hydraulic expansion problems.

Glasers have a few rather severe limitations. For one thing, they have absolutely NO penetrating ability. If you have to shoot someone through a car windshield, it'll break up on the glass and not harm him. Other, similarly light materials, like plywood or sheet metal may provide adequate cover against Glasers, where conventional hollowpoints would go right through. For another thing, it fires an extremely light projectile at high velocity. This gives it a different recoil impulse than most ammo, ball or hollowpoint, and it will not reliably cycle the slide of a good many autoloaders. Finally there is the bullet ogive, combined with the expense (the stuff costs over $20 for a mere six rounds! Most good hollowpoint ammo costs $15 for 20 rounds). You should never, ever trust your life to a pistol/ammo that you have not fired at least 200 rounds through to assure reliability. Glaser ammo is so expensive that the vast majority of people simply can't afford to do that.

Best confine it to use in revolvers. I keep a .44 special Smith & Wesson in the house loaded with Glasers for home defense.

[Knife]

Was looking at the first pic in the series that Vympel posted. The first trooper with the '203 does not have his leaf sight up. What the fuck is he shooting at and how the fuck is he aiming. He is no where close to being able to see through the quad sights, so??????????

[Sea Skimmer]

A pretty mixed bag of weapons has been found in Iraq- the logical ones like AKs, the historical curiosities like Lee Enfields, the remnants of US aid (many many Ma Deuces'- still in their packing grease, were sometimes dipped in to by advancing US forces). Or, they may have gotten them from the Aussie SAS (only rifle I've ever used, back when I was like 16, incidentally).

Iran imported a large number of FN FAL's, its quite possibul that the solider is using a capture Iraq weapon in turn captured from Iran. Iraq certainly did make use of captured Iranian weapons, that's why they had a battalion of Chieftains running around in the Gulf War, the British where nice enough to refit them in the mid 80's.

Anyway it makes sense that troops are picking up some FAL's. There where many reports of infantry needing to fire out to 600+ meters during the invasion and that's getting outside the effective range of a full sized M16 or SAW let alone a cut down M4.