Rants of a Commie

[Resident Commie]

Chrostas do you have some kind of vendetta against anyone with an opposing viewpoint then your own.

I never glorfied communism or said, "Hell we should all resurect Stalin or Mao". Just becase I ageee with some of the teachings of Marxist Communism, dosn't mean i appreciate what twisted system Satlin or Mao but in place when they came to power.

As for

They have the worst environmental records of any nations. Look at the toxic mess that East Europe bequeethed to the west when it collapsed. Forgotten that too? CHERNOBLE! You moron!

First:
Chernobyl, was an accident.
Bikini Atoll, was on purpose.

While the USSR didn't have an outstanding env. record if you bother to look at the other side of the picture you'll discover Bush's envornmental record.

And boy thats really something an envornmentalist would love, right.

No, i don't think so. Not only has Bush allowed drilling for oil in Federally protected Natrual Preserves, he has also refused to sign the Kyoto Treaty, perhaps the biggest step in combating global warming. Why has he not signed on the act? Simple it restricts dumping of toxic chemicals of companies which he is invested in.


While we are on the topic of bush and the business. Look at what is on the mainstream news right now. Bush guilty of taking out illegal loans, and Cheney even deeper in the corporation consipracy.

Stop being sheep and look at the real facts.

[AltoidMaster]

"Let me say here that 3 years of college has made me thoroughly sick of the endless blathering of Marx's apologists here in the 21st century. Nothing that has been said on this thread by the reds is anything I haven't heard or read before: corporations run everything, the United States is just as bad as China and Cuba, poverty is caused by callous exploitation by Western plutocrats, democracy is propaganda, blah blah blah, bullshit bullshit bullshit. I'm thoroughly sick of it and so I'm throwing down the gauntlets. Tell me HOW YOUR PHILOSOPHY GOING TO FIX THINGS. Communist debating tactics are exactly like creationist debating tactics: create a strawman version of capitalism, knock down the strawman, claim victory by default. I say, enough of that crap. Tell me how and why YOUR system is better than MY sistem (free-markets). Be sure to explain how you plan to get people to work productively with no prospect for rewards and a guarantee that no matter what, they'll get the same standard of living as everyone else. Reconcile what most westerners view as their basic right to dissent and criticize society with the concept of the communist society as the final synthesis, ergo perfect in every way and beyond reproch. Tell us how you plan to get everyone to relinquish their property without a bloodbath, or, if you so desire, explain why the bloodbath is a good thing. Solve Lenin's paradox: an oppressive and powerful totolitarian police state is needed so the state can wither away (that's right kids--you don't get to blow off Lenin, and by extention, you don't get to blow off Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol-Pot, etc., because everyone else followed his lead).

I don't think this should be so hard, being as Marx had this all figured out 160 years ago. And if somehow your precious theory fails in this laughably simple little challenge, may I suggest you NOT propose replacing the system which has made our society in the present age a near-utopia by the measure of history standards of the unaccountably vast majority of all the human beings who have ever lived with it."

You sound like you've watched a lot of American Bullshit.

The fact that people are still trying to figure out the freaking American Constitution doesn't mean that it has "failed" or "fallen through". Marxism was outlined in a tiny document, just as Facism was outlined thorugh a tiny document through Mussolini. Of COURSE its open to interpretation.

The reason why many people are quick to point out the flaws in the American system is because its obvious that EVERY system has its faults. But America seems to soften up on its own wrongs in retrospection. Take for example the Sedition Acts which were strictly unconstitutional. Consider the Red Scare and so many other points in American History, many not too long ago where American policies have been lower than its own expectations. But we try to sympathize because during the Nationalism period of history America was a young nation still frightened of its British roots, later on, America was very concerned about communism. But in the end, they TOOK AWAY BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS! Obviously you know that. America locked up, and put into jail, killed many people for being Communist! Why? Because at that time America considered communists in the same way we're worried about terrorists today, and today we find it excusable to detain someone without right of council in Washington because he went to Pakistan and was of the Muslim order. These are trying times, the man MIGHT be a terrorist, we have no conclusive evidence, but in the rationale of today we excuse this blatant abuse of government power because of the time period. The fact that America can claim special power in times of crisis is exactly what a country like China claims when it is dealing with the Falun Gong, who have made a political lobbying effort against the government.

That is what countries like China are saying. That is what Communists claim, that in the period of development, government should and does have the power to break even its own founding principles, to create this sense of "order" and "stability" to which they can recess their hold. We'va all heard the phrase "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" and too be sure i assuredly agree with you, that it is not good to do so, to abridge rights on a whim because government feels a necessity. But it is a very REAL argument to which you haven't bothered to counter, to which I have seen NO ONE counter, just an expectation that everyone develops at a global rate.

The socialist system is veyr much an extreme where government does give everyone basically a free hand. But in modern China, people don't have suc ha large safety net as before. I was there in April, with my school, and I was discussing politics with my tour guide and was fascinated to find that the social security to which socialism is known for, has been amended in China. It IS growing more free in its press and in other thigns, even if it has a long way to go before having the caliber of the United States.

But what does socialism have to offer its people? A gaurenteed education (hopefully of quality), a job, medical benefits. Now if we take away the permanent social security the worker still has incentive to perform his job, this is what we are seeing in China right now. A gaurenteed education up to advanced job skills allows for a more competitive and qualified working pool. Medical benefits offer security. It DOES have its advantages. How do I solve the problem of Lenin's Paradox? Simple. Make sure that as time goes on, government power decreases without ability to reassert itself unless by very difficult proletariat vote. In the same way that a 70% initiative is near impossible for the voters to use their right of direct democracy, in the same way that a 2/3 of congress is required to amend the constitution, I lower the government's ability to give itself power by requiring high standards for increase. IF you want me to show you this theory in implementable form, please prepare to come to my people's commune and work for around 500 years to see the progression of my plan.

How do I deal with Stalin? Simple. Don't rely on his stupidity with killing his own troops. Don't make half the stupid decisions he made on foreign politics. Be less aggressive in your "workers of the world unite". Simple as that and I'll have solved 3/4 of Stalin's war economics problem

How do I deal with Mao? read more books, the man read basically two fantasy novels in his life, never traveled out of country except once to Russia, and thought he could lead a country. Bullshit. Make sure i have people who are still legitimately capable of giving sound scientific advice. Examples are the grain production competitions where villages tried to produce 200tons/acre of grain. This is agricultually impossible at the time. Make sure that my peopel are trained to do the jobs, don't suck away the younger stronger workers from their home villages in order to create industry, form an investigation commity on the bureaucracy so that they can keep an eye on the lying stitches which increased my statistical values. ONce i have reliable information, I can start to create a nation. Don't bother with the cultural revolution bullshit, yet train students to be hyper-communist.

How woudl I deal with the issue of property? Simple, condition everyone to understand that the government gives them a very strong floor. Financial aid, medical care, etc. BUt also give them the understanding that working harder to serve the greater good also directly enhances their position. I will create a class system based upon industrial efficiency and societal contribution.

How do I deal with Pol Pot? I don't know shit about what he did, and he certainly dind't define communism for me.

How do I deal with Castro? Don't bother with a sugar cane community.

IN the end even your claims about a near-utopia by historical standards is off. Look at Athens, Sparta, the Han and Tang dynasties of China, many other cultures have faired with better law and order, flourished, without a democratic system or an even MORE democratic system than the United States. Lets be honest to ourselves, In all realism I don't believe Communism would work unless I amended it. And that's true for ALL communism forms, that's why there is Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism. Because each one thought of developing it in a different way, Lenin and Mao had to work especially hard because they weren't even at the correct stage of socio-evolution. I too claim to this right to amend Marxist's own dream, as long as I maintain the basic value of socialism.

[Stuart Mackey]

[quote="Resident Commie"]Let me begin with a few opening statements.

The US is a power hunger imperialistic state that will do anything to gain more power.
Bush is a bilthering idiot and cares only for oil, money and power.
In a few years globalization and free market industry will cause a greater divide between the elite and the rest of the world.
The problems of today will escalate, wars will start, people will die, poverty, disease, and hunger will run rampant, and every last freedom that was granted to us will be gone, so it had never existed.

There are two choices we can take:
1. We can continue to be ignorant and live a carefree egoist life, aloof to the problems of the world, until finaly the elite take aim at us.
or
2. We can stand up for the common good, denounce the power hungry, war mongering government, fight for equality and human rights, elect true trustworth officals and live in a true grassroots democracy that is controled by the people not, powerful corporations and rich indivduals.

quote]

This all sounds like communism

[BenRG]

I might be wrong (and definately don't have the right wording), but if I am correct, this is a quote either from the Declaration of Independence or the US constitution.

"... and have the unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Should any goverment prove destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it."

Brave words, which read pretty close to being the socialist concept of democracy. I wonder why the people of America don't apply them more often, given the loudly-expressed dissatisfaction with their government that so many seem to have...

PS. If anyone could supply me with the exact quote, I would be grateful.

[BenRG]

This all sounds like communism

Don't knock it. Communism and socialism are pretty good ideas in theory. Unfortunately they are always being hijacked by power-hungry psychopaths like Stalin and Mao who want their shot at godhood and don't care how many millions have to die to pave the way. Oddly enough, Stalin was more of a fascist than a socialist. Communist Russia and Nazi Germany were remarkably similar in most respects.

Communism is pretty good on paper. However, like so many ideas, translating it into the real world seems an intractable problem.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Joke witha meaning. How can you tell a rich American from a poor one? The poor one washes his own car. Before you go using Sparta, or Athens, or China as a good system, What percentage of the population were slaves?
I notice you commies love slave states.You foolishly think that you will one of the fortunate few, rather than the miserable many. THAT is your true agenda, you wanna be slave master. With the proper drugs, the rest will be happy(Soma, Soma, I want MY SOMA!)If the drugs get to expencive, then with the right "conditioning" you WILL be happy. Or fake it. Or else the "treatment" will continue. Maybe you just don't want to face the results of your own leadership.
A poor American more often than not, has a sanitary home heated in the winter, with indoor plumbing, electricity,a TV, phone and VCR, and is OVERWEIGHT! The poor used to starve. If you don't think a poor westerner lives better now, than all but the richest 1% used to live then, you watch to much TV, and skip the History channel. Quit knocking down that straw man, and address how things will get better your way.
Conditioning sounds a lot like brain washing with a good spin. Mi.nd controle?Yeah I want to live in that world. Will this be done with drugs alone,(too expensive) or are we going to use some good old fasioned "negative reinforcement." Torture, Say it. Terror is even cheaper. Sounds like Utopia to me.
The sheer horror of what you propose.
Where I live, you already get a free education, and emergency medical care. As far as cradle to grave job secutity,it doesn't happen in nature, and I don't think what I have to lose is out weighed by this gain. Security at the price of liberty?
We have a safety net, they call it social security, if you are disabled. Welfare if you are able. You just can' t use it for more than three years if you can work.
I will restate from an other post, conveviently ignored;
The problem with most social engineering, is it is not done by engineers. If an engineer told you he could biuld you a wonder widget, that would solve all your problems, and all he needed was:
A material that is tougher than kevlar, more durable than ceramic, lighter than aluminum, transparent, cheaper than cast iron, and with no bad ecological side effects to the making, forming and waist disposal.
When told no such material excists, he storms off in a huff, compaining bitterly how the materials available just weren't "good enough" to suit his needs. What would be your opinion of this mans idea?
That's communism. We just aren't "good enough" to make it work. The system isn't at fault, it's the people in it
Only a philosopher can get away with such crap.
A solution you can't afford, or that creates more problems than it solves, is not a good one.
Don't worry, with the propper "conditioning" we will make it work, even if we need a blood bath. And total controle of every aspect of life.
This is Utopia? What color is the sky on your world
That's right, I'm already brainwashed by the horibble, hateful hurtful,system I was born into. All the more reason to "enlighten" me with your "conditioning" I mean, that fact that I'm so dead set against this process is further proof of my need for it. And when I resist you, well, you just might have to kill me to "save' me.
My system has flaws, sure, and you have to always struggle to keep them under controle. There are no permanent solutions to human probems, any more than the the grass will stay mowed.
Every generation is a new mind to "mold".So your horror show can go on forever, or until the next big meteor strike washes the stain of what we have become from Earth.
You only have to answer one question, as far as I am concerned. What, SPECIFICALY, freedom have you, or someone you PERSONALY know lost recently? You commies are great at sweeping profound sounding answers, but always seem to get bogged dowm in the mundane. Don't squawk about how some college professer in Florida, preaching his hateful Anti American anti semitic garbage, had a right to, at taxpayer expence, be provided with a platform. He is still free to speak, and if a private school wants him, good riddence!
MY sytem works. It has been tested, and is the best model so far.
Your system is a dismal failure, producing grief, horror, poverty and misery.

[Stuart Mackey]

This all sounds like communism

Don't knock it. Communism and socialism are pretty good ideas in theory. Unfortunately they are always being hijacked by power-hungry psychopaths like Stalin and Mao who want their shot at godhood and don't care how many millions have to die to pave the way. Oddly enough, Stalin was more of a fascist than a socialist. Communist Russia and Nazi Germany were remarkably similar in most respects.

Communism is pretty good on paper. However, like so many ideas, translating it into the real world seems an intractable problem.

Communism is not particuly good in theory as it does not account for human nature, not to mention such jems as dictatorship of the prolitariat.
By its very nature it takes the freedom of the individual.
You are correct in that power hungry greedy men took control of the revolutions in Russia, Cina, and even Cuba. The differnece is that in democracies you get to remove those whom you dislike, and there tend to be checks and balances to abate some of the nastier aspects of human nature. Dictatorial systems have no checks on political power, hence the likes of Mao and Stalin. As a side note, my flatemate is Russian, was in Russia in the 60's to 1990, and he says that a running joke in the USSR was that Lennin was no differnt to Hitler.

[Mr Bean]

While the USSR didn't have an outstanding env. record if you bother to look at the other side of the picture you'll discover Bush's envornmental record.

I'm busy today so I only have time to answear this

Need I remind you of the emission standered or lack there off that used to turn St Peterburg into a place worse than San Francsisco by FAR

Need I remind you of the Raditoactive LAKES in Sibera that have no guards besides some Wire Fences and Signs Warning of

Need I remind you of the above ground nuclear testing ranges in Sibera that they used for quite some time and oh had villages with 30 Miles?

Bikini Atoll was delebrate sure as hell we needed a place to tests some nukes so we picked an island
Where there any natives on the Island? No but there sure as hell where in Sibera

[John Clark]

Then you speak of honesty, ehh.
Is not reporting and denying crimes honest. What I am saying is the US is equal in the crimes and is not doing nearly what it can do to stop violations all over the world. The also try to downplay their violations as if they didn't existed. This is especially easy when they effectivly independent of UNCHR decisions and elect for complete media blackouts of any newsworthy human rights violation committed in the US

What crimes went unreported, And furthermore, if they went unreported, how did you find out about them?

[phongn]

Chrostos, could you please organise your thoughts before putting them on the board rather than simply typing of a "stream of consciousness"-like post? It'll make it much easier to read for all.

[Resident Commie]

note* this post basicly applies to both threads I have started, since they are so closely intertwined I will post the same on both threads.

Ahh. as I can see, that even bright and early the minds are at work good for you

For any one who has been trying to sort out this endless babel of retoric and contradiction let me summerise my arguments. And i'll liet the opposition do the same for their's.

1. A Communist Dictatorship is evil as is any and should never be allowed to come to power again. (Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, ect.)
Therefore we need a true democracy, free from all the imperialist tendancies of capitalism. I.E. the Nike Empire, Microsoft Kingdom, and the Starbucks Dutchy. You look at reality for a change and SEE all which is not told. Globalization and Free Markets world wide. Are not supplying people with better life, they are in fact degrading life. These facts are clear to those who seek them.
Here is are links you should check out before you, blindly believe what a Money, driven, Extream Right-Wing, Majority government has to say.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/home.asp
http://www.fair.org
http://www.fair.org/media-woes/media-woes.html
BTW, these are all US institutions which, have a true sense for what it means to be Constitutionally Democratic.

2. The leadership and the government of the US is corrupt to the extream, hense the need for us to remember the roots of indepndence,
thanks to BenRG who first adressed it
the exact exerpt from the Declaration of Indpendence:
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

3. Seeing what our forefathers envisioned of America, it is clearly eveident that the tyranny of the British Empire now rivals that of the tyranny of the United States.

a. This is clear in the book entitiled Feudalism... alias American Capitalism, which can be found here: http://users.uniserve.com/~synergy/welcome.html

b. Along with what is stated in the book here are the most pressing violations by the current government against the constitutional rights it pretends to up hold:

i. The powers of democratic checks and balances have been disregarded by the Executive Branch. This is evedient in the continued active nature of Executive Orders, which since 1933 under 1917 the War Powers Act allow the President to indefinatly suspend constitutional rights.
Here are examples of the most incrminating ones:
10995: Right to seize all communications media in the United States.
10997: Right to seize all electric power, fuels and minerals, both public and private.
10999: Right to seize all means of transportation, including personal vehicles of any kind and total
control of highways, seaports and waterways.
11000: Right to seize any and all American people and divide up families in order to create work
forces to be transferred to any place the gov. sees fit.
11001: Right to seize all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private.
11002: Right to force registration of all men, women and children in the United States.
11003: Right to seize all air space, airports and aircraft.
11004: Right to seize all housing and finance authorities in order to establish "Relocation Designated
Areas" and to force abandonment of areas classified as "unsafe".
11005: Right to seize all railroads, inland waterways, and storage facilities, both public and private.
While this may seem ironicly like communism it isn't, because if you have discovered the government is wholly dominated by the elite.

ii. This is even more evident today, with the passing of the Patriot Act and others which, illegally restrict our constituational rights under the Bill of Rights. These actions include limitation of free speech, an end to search and seisure rights, and even thought of eliminating the 5th Amendment.

This Is An example of what legislation the governmment has been the last 70 or so years. Why should we the people allow the government to place restrictions on us that we fought to be free from. (See DoI quote)

We are not Equal in the eyes of our government, and they will do anything to hold and reinforce their power.

Now to answer for your questions.

First off I don't even want to venture into what unfouned and useless coments that Chrostas presents, Tautologies and False Causes will get you nowhere. And while it would be fun to quickly deconstruct your argument as eeasily as you rambled it together. I simpily don't have the time.

As for Mr Bean

Need I remind you of the emission standered or lack there off that used to turn St Peterburg into a place worse than San Francsisco by FAR

Need I remind you of the Raditoactive LAKES in Sibera that have no guards besides some Wire Fences and Signs Warning of

Need I remind you of the above ground nuclear testing ranges in Sibera that they used for quite some time and oh had villages with 30 Miles?

Bikini Atoll was delebrate sure as hell we needed a place to tests some nukes so we picked an island
Where there any natives on the Island? No but there sure as hell where in Sibera

Again im am reiterating the fact that, I am not refuting the claims of USSRs follies, in this case Enviornmental Issues, because they are BOTH at fault. Again your bring back more Red Herring, which have no relevencey to the issue at hand. That issue is the United States is not what it seems and should be refromed by the people who which to make it a true democracy following the outlines, of the constitution.

But since you did bring up the point about Nuclear Testing and Fallout, here are some interesting facts that you should take into consideration.
- Nuclear Testing in Nevada and Arizona in the 1950s created a large fallout in the US that reached as far as Chicago. This resulted in an increase probabilty of Cancer, Birth Defects and many other woes.
- The Bikini Atoll was inhabited by a native population that endured starvation, inhumane treatment, and suffred the destruction of their culture.

Again while these facts are not the main issue but the do suppliment the fact that, again, both superpowers are at fault.

If you don't believe me and a doubt you do, here are some links that you should be aware of before you claim inconsistincies in my argument.
http://www.parascope.com/articles/1097/fallout.htm
http://www.parascope.com/gallery/galler ... /index.htm
http://rex.nci.nih.gov/massmedia/Fallout/contents.html
http://www.bikiniatoll.com//history.html

And lastly John, your intellegence almost amounts to that of Chrostas

What crimes went unreported, And furthermore, if they went unreported, how did you find out about them?

for you too I will gift you with the ability of information,
http://www.unhchr.ch/
http://www.amnesty.org/
http;//www.fair.org/
Just because it goes unreported with mainstream, dosn't mean it doesn't exist. Thats simple fact. Think about who controls the news corporations and it will all make connections.

And remeber think before you post.

And if a don't hear from you good morning, good evening and good night

PS. how can you post pics, for some reason i can't get it to work when using BBcode.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

If Communism is so great, then how come the Soviet Union is no more?

If Communism works, then why is China slowly becoming a free-market economy?

If Communism is so popular, then why isn't Fidel Castro ruler of all Central America?

If Communist policies work. then why did Mao's "Community Farms" cause dozens of millions of people to starve to ? Why did Stalin "purge" people, more beings than the s?

If Capitalism is bad, then why does the US have the 2nd highest GDP per capita in the world, while more socialist countries have fallen behind.

Besides, if it weren't for America, would have seized Europe, ruled the world, and Communism would have died right there.

I'm sure in about 50-100 years, Communism will only be a memory, one that most would wish to get out of their heads.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Phong. Suggestion considered, contemplated, aproved and accepted.
The small nature of the reply box, with eyestrain, has much to do with my format. What it looks like in the tiny white box is not how it ends up. Paragraph indentation, and other things like
1. Doing this.
2. And this
will be easier if I write all this down in document form, and transfer it.
I am very new to this computer stuff, but I have a fast learning curve. I can see why you said what you said, though. It is a lack of skill, not knowledge or experiece. I admire, not envy, the ease of with which you young 'uns use computers. I'll get better. I still haven't figured out the changing of font styles, or colors, and many other options this venue has to offer.
I am in my early 40s, and have never debaited in a written format, only oral. No excuse SIR!
I also have thick skin, vulnerable only to that horribly unfair tactic of using logic. Some of the arguements I see on this web sit could only be made by someone too inexperieced with the real world, and it's reality check smackdown.
1.Hearing about having your lights shut off, or missing a meal because you made a poor spending choice, is not the same as living it.
2.Talking about killing someone, and doing it are not the same. Something died inside me during Desert Storm, along with those poor Iraqi bastards in the bunker I helped blow to hell. The stench of death is unforgettable.
3.Seeing real poverty, like people starving to death, just can't compare to a 2d screen. People in the west have no real conseption of true poverty.
4. Very often, when people talk of things they could never know about, with horrible consequences they could never have known about, enrages me to the point of semi incoherance. This does not serve my interests, or my case.
5.On the brighter side, I have also save a life, with CPR, so I guess the army training was good for something posative after all. I walked on clouds for days after that.

[Guardsman Bass]

First off, not barring the impossible, I wish we could send ResidentCommie back in time to Stalinist or the Leninist era.

Second, I would suggest you all read [u]LENIN[/u], by General Dmitri Volkogrov(or something like that).

Third, I would like to say that revolutionaries, like Communist revolutionaries, are often sadly the same:

1. They all want a social dictatorship where they are the dictators. Ill wager none of them would really want to be a peasant, even for principle.

2. They remind me of the Luddites, who mostly come from the most advanced countries, and can't really imagine what a world without technology(or without normal human incentives)

3. They assume that when they are in power, they are the exception to the rule; they are totally incorruptible and benevolent. RIGHT . . . . In fact, it is one of the biggest ironies that the Communists in Russia replaced the old ruling class with a new one with powers no emperor would dream of.
If you read Volkogrov's biography of Vladimir Lenin, you'll find that often the brass in the Bolsheviks often occupied the same villas formerly owned by the nobility.

Guardsman Bass

[phongn]

Phong. Suggestion considered, contemplated, aproved and accepted.
The small nature of the reply box, with eyestrain, has much to do with my format. What it looks like in the tiny white box is not how it ends up. Paragraph indentation, and other things like
1. Doing this.
2. And this
will be easier if I write all this down in document form, and transfer it.

Ah, okay. Usually if you can add spaces between paragraphs it helps.

I also have thick skin, vulnerable only to that horribly unfair tactic of using logic. Some of the arguements I see on this web sit could only be made by someone too inexperieced with the real world, and it's reality check smackdown.

There's a board I lurk on full of anti-Communists (there's some European Socialists, American Leftists, those on the Religious Right...and they'd all smack down this silly argument with ease. Alas, I have no their skill).

2.Talking about killing someone, and doing it are not the same. Something died inside me during Desert Storm, along with those poor Iraqi bastards in the bunker I helped blow to hell. The stench of death is unforgettable.

I've heard this from other veterans. I've read posts by a Thai Col - she wrote once about when Vietnam invaded them and the carnage of battle. I don't think people would like me to post those descriptions here.

3.Seeing real poverty, like people starving to death, just can't compare to a 2d screen. People in the west have no real conseption of true poverty.

I've been to Vietnam, I know how it is. Don't automatically assume here.

[phongn]

This Is An example of what legislation the governmment has been the last 70 or so years. Why should we the people allow the government to place restrictions on us that we fought to be free from. (See DoI quote)

I already posted my response in the other thread. Suffice to say, it is clear that you simply copied and pasted the EOs from another webpage and didn't bother doing any real research with them.

But since you did bring up the point about Nuclear Testing and Fallout, here are some interesting facts that you should take into consideration.
- Nuclear Testing in Nevada and Arizona in the 1950s created a large fallout in the US that reached as far as Chicago. This resulted in an increase probabilty of Cancer, Birth Defects and many other woes.

Source?

- The Bikini Atoll was inhabited by a native population that endured starvation, inhumane treatment, and suffred the destruction of their culture.

Again, your source? As I recall, they were evacuated off the island before the US nuclear testing.

Just because it goes unreported with mainstream, dosn't mean it doesn't exist. Thats simple fact. Think about who controls the news corporations and it will all make connections.

So your sources are automatically unbiased because they aren't corporate? I understand if you believe the media biased - I do as well, but don't think that Amnesty International, etc don't have their own agendy.

[phongn]

I never glorfied communism or said, "Hell we should all resurect Stalin or Mao". Just becase I ageee with some of the teachings of Marxist Communism, dosn't mean i appreciate what twisted system Satlin or Mao but in place when they came to power.

Except that the inevitable result of Communism is that such a system will come into power.

First:
Chernobyl, was an accident.
Bikini Atoll, was on purpose.

Chernobyl's failure can be directly traced to the Soviet Union's lax training standards.

While the USSR didn't have an outstanding env. record if you bother to look at the other side of the picture you'll discover Bush's envornmental record.

Which is no-where near as bad as the USSR's.

No, i don't think so. Not only has Bush allowed drilling for oil in Federally protected Natrual Preserves,

No he hasn't. Congress denied use of ANWR. In addition, the land is barren. Pristine, yes, but barren.

he has also refused to sign the Kyoto Treaty, perhaps the biggest step in combating global warming. Why has he not signed on the act?

Because the US Senate rejected it 95-0. He does not have the authority to sign on it without the consent of the Senate. Furthermore, I have seen enough evidence to be skeptical of the notion that human CO2 production is the primary cause of global warming.

Simple it restricts dumping of toxic chemicals of companies which he is invested in.

No it doesn't. Don't you know what Kyoto is about?

While we are on the topic of bush and the business. Look at what is on the mainstream news right now. Bush guilty of taking out illegal loans, and Cheney even deeper in the corporation consipracy.

Sources? All I see is that Cheney may have had a connection with Halliburton's book-cooking and nothing on Bush.

Stop being sheep and look at the real facts.

Cease with the ad homenim attacks.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Phongn.
In answer to your point 3 answer, I meant to say most, not all in the west haven't a clue about real poverty. The immigrants know all too well what real poverty is. That's why they're immigants. That and freedom, which like air, you take for granted until it is in short supply. Most westerners don't take trips to realy poor places, as vacations, and money making trips, (the main reason for travel) are not generaly taken. No money to be made, too depressing.It is most likely that visiting relatives, (the ones who haven't made it to the promessed land yet) is the reason to go there. That and missionary/charity work.
I misspoke.
Immigrants are the hope of salvation to an increasingly self hating trend that is souring the milk of freedom. If you grew up here, it is so easy to take the good that we have, earned through blood, sweat, and tears, for granted. Like Resident Commie, ever so sure that the grass is always greener, unaware of the blight just over the hill.
"When you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything."

Why did you go to Viet Naam, or were you born there. (No answer required, or expected)

[phongn]

\Why did you go to Viet Naam, or were you born there. (No answer required, or expected)

Family went to visit dad's relatives in Vietnam. I was born in the Twin Cities area.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Phongn.
Then you know, first hand what communism will do to a people and place. I know of many North Vietnamise (yes I know there is only one Viet Naam) that wish they had lost the war. They look at what happened to Germany, and Japan, and rethink that they "won".

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Phongn:
Still, I think I pegged the visiting family part,(not very hard, given the moniker) quite well. I think if we met, we would be good friends, as we share a value system. I think if I met commie I would have to exit the situation, before my rage overcame my principals, and the blackness inside landed me in jail. I have been studying martial arts longer than most of the people in this website have been alive, and am seldom armed with less than a knife. (I just don't feel SAFE without it)I must often leave confrontational situations before I lose controle. It is ironic that this trouble avoiding tactic has often earned me the reputaion of "chicken". I don't EVER want to kill again.
Note to Commie. Watch your mouth in the real world, as I am a model of stability compaired to some of my war buddies.

[AltoidMaster]

Commie, yuo seem to have missed what communism is entirely.

It is a dictatorship of the proletariat. That is why farmers do not get a say in the government until they are industrialized, that is why at first only the proletariats make the decisions in a despotic manner. What we see is that if EVERYONE is a proletariat however, we approach what you call a "true democracy" but that is also unreasonable because not everyone is goign to be a proletariat ANYWAYS.

[Emperor Norton II]

Any one that twisted is beyond saving. Communism never functioned, even under Leine's rule. We all have to go to work sometimes. Its better just better if we get recognition for our peers and co-workers, and this does not mean a poster with our picture on it calling us a hero of socialist labor. I would rather have a quarterly sales bonus or stock options. (In a company that’s not sinking)

May be this guy should go talk to some one like Michael Savage. Let the epileptic communist fit begin http://www.paulreveresociety.com/

[AltoidMaster]

MY sytem works. It has been tested, and is the best model so far.
Your system is a dismal failure, producing grief, horror, poverty and misery.
"

I'll start from your last sentence. Your system has not truly stood the test of time, thats why Athens was eventually conquered, why the Roman Empire existed for a lot longer, why Chinese dynasties existed for a lot longer.

Your system is still under trial for its worthiness, and ith as deviated more than a few times from its core values. Don't think 200 years or SEMI-prosperity equates to society success.

"You only have to answer one question, as far as I am concerned. What, SPECIFICALY, freedom have you, or someone you PERSONALY know lost recently? You commies are great at sweeping profound sounding answers, but always seem to get bogged dowm in the mundane. Don't squawk about how some college professer in Florida, preaching his hateful Anti American anti semitic garbage, had a right to, at taxpayer expence, be provided with a platform. He is still free to speak, and if a private school wants him, good riddence! "

I lost freedom of speech when I can no longer shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. Therefore I'm oppressed. Its nothing to get upset about and throw a revolution over, but my basic human right has been violated. oh no!

"Don't worry, with the propper "conditioning" we will make it work, even if we need a blood bath. And total controle of every aspect of life.
This is Utopia? What color is the sky on your world
That's right, I'm already brainwashed by the horibble, hateful hurtful,system I was born into. All the more reason to "enlighten" me with your "conditioning" I mean, that fact that I'm so dead set against this process is further proof of my need for it. And when I resist you, well, you just might have to kill me to "save' me.
My system has flaws, sure, and you have to always struggle to keep them under controle. There are no permanent solutions to human probems, any more than the the grass will stay mowed.
Every generation is a new mind to "mold".So your horror show can go on forever, or until the next big meteor strike washes the stain of what we have become from Earth. "

YOu ARE brainwashed. Every thought you have in your brain is a product of your environment. Your morality, your logical thinking, is 100% conditioned. Your conditioning isn't necessarily bad, but quite frankly you are acting way to biased for your own logic. I'm not even a communist and I'm hardly so aggressive. Calm down.

Consider this fact of brainwashing. In America, you are trained to hate Hitler, not always a bad thing mind you, but you are trained to hate Hitler. Next, you are trained to basically hate Communism and Stalin.

Put out a movie where we see Stalin fighting Hitler and you see people cheering "Go Stalin! Beat the shit out of Hitler!"

This is precisely what mind control and brain washing is. We hate Hitler so much that no matter who else was fighting him, Castro, Bin Ladin, you'd probably have people happy that terrorists bombed Germany. In fact, there was such a movie about Jewish people sabotaging the Germans. What do we have? "Go terrorists". Cuz that's EXACTLY what they did.

And btw, commies don't kill you to save you. You've read too much 1984. You're killed for resisting the system. No doubt about it. The same way aristocrats and bourgeousie are killed for resisting and oppressing the proletariat. There was never a "We have to kill rich people to save them" it's "we kill rich people because they oppressed the poor".

If you're going to argue at least get your arguments right. If I had half a mind i could come in and write a MUCH better argument against Communism than you just did. (But wait, I did...)

The problem with most social engineering, is it is not done by engineers. If an engineer told you he could biuld you a wonder widget, that would solve all your problems, and all he needed was:
A material that is tougher than kevlar, more durable than ceramic, lighter than aluminum, transparent, cheaper than cast iron, and with no bad ecological side effects to the making, forming and waist disposal.
When told no such material excists, he storms off in a huff, compaining bitterly how the materials available just weren't "good enough" to suit his needs. What would be your opinion of this mans idea?
That's communism. We just aren't "good enough" to make it work. The system isn't at fault, it's the people in it
Only a philosopher can get away with such crap.
A solution you can't afford, or that creates more problems than it solves, is not a good one.

Err.. I posted a response but I'll respond again. Even engineers need certain types of tools and materials. Try building a processor without semi-conductors, or wire without metal. They are a section of the entire table of elements! How unfair that an engineer should ask for Copper wire. You've just used a terrible analogy.

Where I live, you already get a free education, and emergency medical care. As far as cradle to grave job secutity,it doesn't happen in nature, and I don't think what I have to lose is out weighed by this gain. Security at the price of liberty?
We have a safety net, they call it social security, if you are disabled. Welfare if you are able. You just can' t use it for more than three years if you can work.

So you go to College for free eh? Welfare and Social Security are SOCIALIST PROGRAMS. You have just argued for the enemy! How lame...

And I'll tell you something, I know a person who has both parents working, living in a small greasy hut with a take home of about 500 dollars a month. San Francisco took a part of Treasure Island and fixed up the housing on it for the homeless, and now a family has moved in with no members working, and living off a $1000 welfare, medical aid, inclusive. San Francisco is a little unique of course, due to the political power of the homeless (believe it or not they wield political power). Here we see an example where a family is better off in welfare. The only REAL issue is "what is their incentive to work?" And currently there is none. That's where the idea of work fear comes from. This is why countries like China are changing their "floor" to provide peopel with incentive to work harder. They are still a socialist nation.

What you think is subjective to you. The fact that there ARE communists reveals that there are other types of people willing to sacrifice some liberties for security. In fact i remember an interview with a Swedish couple a believe who stated JUST THAT.

" notice you commies love slave states.You foolishly think that you will one of the fortunate few, rather than the miserable many. THAT is your true agenda, you wanna be slave master. With the proper drugs, the rest will be happy(Soma, Soma, I want MY SOMA!)If the drugs get to expencive, then with the right "conditioning" you WILL be happy. Or fake it. Or else the "treatment" will continue. Maybe you just don't want to face the results of your own leadership.
A poor American more often than not, has a sanitary home heated in the winter, with indoor plumbing, electricity,a TV, phone and VCR, and is OVERWEIGHT! The poor used to starve. If you don't think a poor westerner lives better now, than all but the richest 1% used to live then, you watch to much TV, and skip the History channel. Quit knocking down that straw man, and address how things will get better your way.

Err...Commies don't love slave states. They aren't trying to create one. That isn't their agenda. If they are TRUE commies. Its just too bad few of them are. YOu are being really idiotic in this statement because you're claiming some sort of alterior motive to the whole thing. Trust me, its easier to just be a monarch if that's the issue.

A poor American gets what you say, because he has socialist programs such as Social Security and Medicare which helps provide him with what we need, because even YOU admit that government should provide SOME floor. Its just a question of HOW MUCH floor. But the existence of ANY floor for standard of living is SOCIALIST.

[Resident Commie]

Thank AltoidMaster,
At least im not the only sane, logical, and open minded person here.