Inspired by the MAvsRome topic, Genghis Khan vs Rome.

OT: anything goes!

Moderator: Edi

User avatar
Pablo Sanchez
Commissar
Posts: 6998
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:41pm
Location: The Wasteland

Post by Pablo Sanchez »

NecronLord wrote:The real question, is could the Mongols sucessfully destroy the Roman Empire before the Romans match their advantages (Stirrups etc.) And arrange for entire cavalry centric legions?
The Mongols would probably overrun the Eastern, wealthier part of the Empire in a matter of years, though the many fortresses would require a long time to sieze. The remaining half of the Empire is shielded by German forests and the Alps and would in any case be less desireable. I don't think the Romans would be able to retake the Empire, but after a few years of modernizing and refocussing on cavalry they would be capable of defending themselves.
Hell, if the Romans are really pressed they can always retreat to Britannia, as far as I know the Mongols weren't really known for naval warfare...
The Mongols aren't known for naval warfare because they were only in coastal areas of Europe for a very short time. They dominated the coasts of China, and were only prevent from siezing Japan by meteorological happenstance. They made good use of native craftsmen and in the above situation they could probably muster a superiority (as they did against Japan).

The point is moot anyway, if they force the Roman government to retreat to Brittania, the Mongols have won a pretty much total victory, and there's no point in siezing poor, isolated Brittania.
Image
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

I think one is forgetting the fact that half the military force of the Roman empire were in the auxilia, and in the Eastern provinces in particular, these were heavily drawn from cavalry forces. Besides that, the Romans could and did frequently hire large forces of Arab cavalry for campaigns in Persia; and in such a scenario as this there would probably be fleeing Parthians to add to the ranks. Historically the one place the Mongols were checked was in Syria, by an army coming up from Egypt. Perhaps the question should be if a Mongol force coming down through Iran can succeed in taking the breadbasket of the Empire--Aegyptus and North Africa. They would have to advance down through Palestine against fortresses and what would certainly be a strong opposition. The terrain does not favour them; it is not particularly high, but it is rugged and unpleasant in the extreme, especially for cavalry.

They will do fine on the Plain of Syria--it was made for a cavalry engagement, one might say--but if they try to turn south, the ground will be decidedly unpleasant. Even in Anatolia, look at how long the Byzantines held the coasts against the Turks...

Also, though the stirrup provides obvious advantages to a lancer, has anyone quantified the advantages it gives to horse-archers over the Roman-style four-horned saddle, which was certainly more stable than riding bareback or something..? That is one thing to consider, at any rate. I don't think the Mongols could successfully assault a Roman encampment, which will be built every night; the danger to a Roman field army is on the march.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Pablo Sanchez
Commissar
Posts: 6998
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:41pm
Location: The Wasteland

Post by Pablo Sanchez »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I think one is forgetting the fact that half the military force of the Roman empire were in the auxilia, and in the Eastern provinces in particular, these were heavily drawn from cavalry forces. Besides that, the Romans could and did frequently hire large forces of Arab cavalry for campaigns in Persia; and in such a scenario as this there would probably be fleeing Parthians to add to the ranks. Historically the one place the Mongols were checked was in Syria, by an army coming up from Egypt.
An army which outnumbered them and was composed entirely of highly trained and motivated cavalry. The Roman cavalry in the theatre are fickle and in any case far less effective than the Mongols. Recall that Genghis slaughtered the Khwarezmian army, which was very large and had significant cavalry elements including Cataphract-style formations. Whatever cavalry the Romans can raise will be no match for the Mongols and are the sort that will desert at the first opportunity.
Perhaps the question should be if a Mongol force coming down through Iran can succeed in taking the breadbasket of the Empire--Aegyptus and North Africa. They would have to advance down through Palestine against fortresses and what would certainly be a strong opposition. The terrain does not favour them; it is not particularly high, but it is rugged and unpleasant in the extreme, especially for cavalry.
The Mongols will do what they generally did in China and bypass such strongpoints on their way to grazing and populated areas. The Romans don't have the mobility to force an engagement, except possibly at river crossings, in which case the Mongols are likely to anticipate the attempt and try to find another route.
They will do fine on the Plain of Syria--it was made for a cavalry engagement, one might say--but if they try to turn south, the ground will be decidedly unpleasant. Even in Anatolia, look at how long the Byzantines held the coasts against the Turks...
The Byzantines had a more active navy, stronger fortifications, and an army which was designed specifically to counter steppe cavalry.
Also, though the stirrup provides obvious advantages to a lancer, has anyone quantified the advantages it gives to horse-archers over the Roman-style four-horned saddle, which was certainly more stable than riding bareback or something..?
The stirrups make it possible to fire at the gallop without major difficulty, something which is very hard without them. They also give a major advantage in a mounted melee, the Mongols could shatter the Arabs in a hand-to-hand engagement.
That is one thing to consider, at any rate. I don't think the Mongols could successfully assault a Roman encampment, which will be built every night; the danger to a Roman field army is on the march.
The Romans have to break ranks to set up their encampments. The Mongols can move very quickly.
Image
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
User avatar
Darth Gojira
Jedi Master
Posts: 1378
Joined: 2002-07-14 08:20am
Location: Rampaging around Cook County

Post by Darth Gojira »

I'm not sure how the Romans would fare. The Mongols were well equipped, and their horse archers could do a Manzikert on the Romans. Roman forts would be hard pressessed, provided the Mongols have the equipment. On one hand, Genghis Khan had trouble taking Chinese fortresses. On the other hand, he could abduct siege engineers, and besides, the Roman hill forts are no Chinese strongholds.
Hokey masers and giant robots are no match for a good kaiju at your side, kid
Post #666: 5-24-03, 8:26 am (Hey, why not?)
Do you not believe in Thor, the Viking Thunder God? If not, then do you consider your state of disbelief in Thor to be a religion? Are you an AThorist?-Darth Wong on Atheism as a religion
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Darth Gojira wrote:I'm not sure how the Romans would fare. The Mongols were well equipped, and their horse archers could do a Manzikert on the Romans.
Manzikert was only lost due to treachery.
the Roman hill forts are no Chinese strongholds.
I would hardly call Roman fortresses "hill forts". Also, consider the massive proliferation of walled cities and towns in the Empire.

P.S. - I just remembered, there are only two passes in Cilicia, the Syrian and Amanic Gates, and only one, the Cilician Gates, into Anatolia from there. These are all exceptionally narrow passages. To get onto the plain of Anatolia the Mongols would probably have to go to the north--IE, through Armenia (Manzikert only happened because the Armenian vassals broke away, for that matter), and the terrain up there is hardly suited for cavalry. The Roman army has a better forward-deploy capability than the Byzantines along the Parthian border, and has Armenia as a vassal in this period; the defence of Anatolia should not be impossible.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
Post Reply