Just a sudden thought on time travel...

Romulan_nemesis · Post by **Romulan_nemesis** » 2002-09-25 08:50pm

Everyone complains about B&B constantly using time travel. Yeah it does get a tad boring after a while, but Enterprise in my opinion is doing a better job of it. And when someone says just cause Shockwave or Broken Bow or something has time travel in it, its automatically bullshit.

The episode has time travel...

SO FUCKING WHAT?!?

If its done good in the story, then rock on Starfleet.

I'm sorry, but just cause its time travel orientated, or the vulcans invented velcro, or the amelia earhart somehow travelled across the delta quadrant (still trying to figure than one out since i didn't see it.) and Sisko and crew go to K-7 with Kirk, etc. does NOT MAKE IT A BAD EPISODE.

I'm sorry...usually I'm alm, but its just starting to piss me off.

I know a few extremist warsies on other boards who have even more...colorful comments on time travellin trek episodes and I just can't wait to see the look on their faces if George Lucas starts fuckin around with time travel.

Just my own opinion...

Nemesis

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-25 08:53pm

1. Part of Star Trek has always been exploring new ideas with a consistent and interesting crew. Enterprise gives us neither.

2. Broken Bow and Shockwave were weak stories, anyway, so they deserve to be ridiculed even if we accept that time travel is reasonable.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-25 08:53pm

i don't have a beef with tme travel per se, but i DO get pissed when trekkies starts saying that TT is a deus ex that the Feddies can use to beat anyone. It's bullshit.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-25 08:55pm

Time travel IS a deus ex machina, the way it is used consistently in Star Trek.

Relying solely on time travel for vs. debates is actually a quiet concession that the Federation could never defeat the Empire on honest terms, so it really doesn't matter, anyway.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-25 08:55pm

Time travel may not instantley make a bad episode, but then again those episodes you mention are utter tripe anyway, the time travel being the final insult (well, I guess in "Shockwave II", gratuitously topless Hoshi was the final insult).

Time travel is OVERUSED, tired and formuliac, thanks to B&B, time travel has gone beyond a tool for a plot to the basis of the plot itself, it's ridiculous.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-25 09:02pm

you ain't kidding there

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-09-25 09:06pm

I think that Trek has been using time travel too much. Plus in a lot of the ways they've been using it we always end up seeing some version of the Universal Reset button.

I like Enterprise but it is disappointing that B&B decided to put this whole "Tempral Cold War" arc into the series. Unless they have something spectacular set up further down the road

it was a bad idea all around.
If they wanted to piddle around in the times after DS9/Voyager they should have done it. I know plenty of people who wouldn't have minded seeing a well written show dealing with the post Dominion war Alpha quadrant.

They had plenty to play with with the original premise of Enterprise in actually showing what it would be like to be out in Trek space without a net. TOS used to do that. Recently it seems that they've been picking up the Vulcans as their "net".

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-25 09:08pm

I simply LOVE the Braga quote where he says that the Temporal Cold War is going to rock, and qualifies the statement by saying that he doesn't even quite know where it's going to go, next. That just struck me as one of the absolute stupidest things I've ever read. It was perfect!

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-09-25 09:14pm

As an author of a sprite comic I will say that making things up as you go along is fun and keeps viewers on their toes, as long as you have an overall plan and keep consistency. Maybe Paramount should hire me! I'll do anything for a buck or two million.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-25 09:15pm

that's the problem: Enterpise has no fuckin' plan, it's just fluff.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-25 09:18pm

Braga likes to boast a lot about Enterprise having things like plot and consistency, but it's all dirty lies.
All we get is bad storylines and Braga's ideal future, which involves lots of time travel, everybody and their damn cat time travelling, what the hell is this guy's thing with time travel? Was a born in a Tardis or something?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-25 09:44pm

that guy is just a freakin tard

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-09-25 10:21pm

Time travel is a Dues Ex Machina, even if you have do go the many worlds route ... time travel into the future (avoiding the whole BS about casuality) opens so many ways to beat your enemy its harsh.

The problems with ST time travel:
1. There are no coherent rules. Sometimes the past rewrites into the future ... and everyone remembers ... sometimes it rewrites and nobody remembers the alternate. Its a hideous blackbox that gives such varied results the only rationalizations of otherwise dubious origin can explain it all (and then you still have huge amounts of black boxing). If they just picked a simple set of consistent time travel rules life would be *much* better.
2. Very rarely does time travel have any consequences in B&B. With a good time travel plot you still have emotional investment in the plot (i.e. we actually cringe when Edith Keeler dies). Most B&B time travel stories leave us not giving a damn because we know the main characters are going to live and they can't write a good killable character if their lives depended on it. The number of times you come out of time travel with no major impact or beleivable "character development" ... well it's just too few.
3. The brainstorming session. The most overused plot element in trek. No matter what the problem is you always have these long round table discussion about what to do and how to fix it. In time travel shows these seem markedly more contrived and boring.

General problems:
4. ST has no theme. In TOS the federation was analogous to the cold war. You had an evil empire (the Klingons) who were cunning, ferocious, but not completely foreign. You had the Romulans (a presumably weaker empire which had a faller out with the other ... gee sound strangely like China). The analogy was far from exact, but it was there. ST dealt with problems the world of today faces, this peaked in ST6, IMO. TNG did this to a lesser extent and had long story arcs that were buyable. Now come the B&B shows ... DS9 doesn't develop any long story arcs until after we decide to go rock em sock em ... and most of those are rather shallow and pointless. Voyager had some half-assed long story arcs ... but they were all shallow as hell.

5. Poorly defined characters. In TOS you had some very in depth characters which were superbly acted. Bones, Spock, Scotty, Uhura, even some of the less well developed characters like Sulu and Chekov ... they all are beleivable and have personalities. Then you come TNG. Picard has a character because Patrick Stewert gives him one. Data has a character, but one with little room to develop or progress. The others are beleivable if slightly moronic at times. Then we come to the B&B shows were you have ill defined relationships that change from show to show, where characters are even more rigid and change less (we at least got to see some progression in Picard). The relationships are even more artificial. By the time voyager rolls around each character is a few sentences and has no consistincy. Lameway goes from being the CO who jokes and hangs with the crew to some aloof bitch. Harry Kim never gets beyond the "guy we pan to when need a shot of some one looking awestruck". Torres is inconsistent and develops little. Tuvok not half the Vulcan Spock was. Neelix, well I'm just grimacing. The real bright spot there is Robert Picardo. The relationships suck also because you not only know the end result, you know how you are going to get there. Others are so obiviously contrived its a wonder anyone cares.

B&B took a story that addressed issues and pushed the boundaries and turned into a soap opera in space where we get to see stories already done elsewhere in ST format.

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-09-25 10:50pm

Who the fucking hell is Edith Keeler?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-25 10:52pm

You must be joking.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-25 10:54pm

Edith Keeler was in TOS, when Kirk, Bones, and Spock traveled back in time. Kirk fell in love with her, but she ended up dying.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-25 10:55pm

RayCav of ASVS wrote:Who the fucking hell is Edith Keeler?

I am the Keeper of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The Dark Fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go back to the Off Topic Forum. You cannot pass!

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-09-25 11:01pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
RayCav of ASVS wrote:Who the fucking hell is Edith Keeler?
I am the Keeper of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The Dark Fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go back to the Off Topic Forum. You cannot pass!

Oh...Kay...

this is the part where I usually say "screw you"

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-09-26 11:15am

RayCav of ASVS wrote:Who the fucking hell is Edith Keeler?

Joan Collins

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-26 11:20am

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-09-26 01:12pm

I dont hate time travel as much as i hate the Borg. Again, i say: If we get one Borg reference in Enterprise, just ONE..... Darkstar will be smarter than B&B.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-26 01:56pm

you average bum is smarter than B&B

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-09-26 02:06pm

Hey, hey I know Roaches with more brains than B&B...no putting bums even with the same level as those two.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-26 02:10pm

i wasn't. I put the bums above B&B, like everything else.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-09-26 04:08pm

I was thinking about the Borg, and Time Travel(TM), and ST:First Contact, and came to a disturbing realization: WTF ARE THE BORG THINKING?!?

So they travel to Earth, to invade a civilization that hasn't really been such a threat to them, and they lose, but in a desperate attempt, they travel BACK in time, in an attempt to sabotage the creation of Warp travel and the creation of the Federation, so they could assimilate them? So that they could assimilate some lame 21st Century civilization with lame technology, not to mention really really small "civlization" spanning a single world?!?

Is the Borg that stupid? I thought they wanted to assimilate everyone, to add others' technical knowledge to their own, etc. So why would them go back to the friggin' Stone Age to assimilate cavemen before they even evolve into a starfaring culture?

My two cents...