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StarshipTitanic
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

Don't quibble semantics with me. I know what fucking words mean.
Excessive cost!=Unnecessary cost

Or maybe those silly Russians were just wasting their time in WW2?
Except that the Fundy, unlike you, will have a mandate to do what he does, and if he oversteps his bounds it won't generate the same backlash you did.
And you said he would, which would be worse than what I did.
The worst part is, even if I'm completely wrong and there's no backlash, changing all the documents ACCOMPLISHES NOTHING. Whoop-di-do, a Department of the Interior memo from 1928 had the word "God" stricken from it. Oh, look, a treaty from 1826 had three references to "Almighty God" crossed out--a victory for the forces of Reason everywhere!
Not THAT type of document. Ones in use today.
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Post by CelesKnight »

StarshipTitanic wrote:
Do you even fucking know what a Pyrrhic victory is? It's a victory that's NOT WORTH HAVING; i.e., one that ends up causing so much damage that it would have been better if you'd just stayed home.
No, it's one that is won at an enormous cost; i.e., Fundy president proving I was correct. Fundy comes into power, reverses that and uses it as an excuse to reverse a bunch of other things that moderates like. Not many will tolerate a 1950s lifestyle. The Fundy will lose the next election and a moderate would be picked who will cut religion cleanly free of government for all time to prevent anything like that from happening again.

Or maybe I have too much faith in people.
You're making three big leaps without any support.
1)Your replacement could easily be savvy enough to not go too far. Imagine if they simple roll back your laws and admend the Constitution to say something to the effect of "This country was founded on Judeo-Chiristian values. And we recongize God." Or "Local gov't will have the appility to establish religion as they see fit." That's not as likely to cause a backlash because it doesn't effect people's everyday lives. Ordinary people who wouldn't approve of it now may keep quite after seeing your actions. However, it will be a huge boost to later debates over religion in government.

2)Even if they go "too far" (by that I mean directly interferring with groups) it may not generate as big a backlash. Particularly if the groups they target aren't popular or large.

3)Even if your replacements do go too far and lose, the moderate may not choose to only undo some of their laws. I.e. they may remove the more blatent violations, leave the "unimportant" ones and move on. End result favors them.

There are simply too many variables to predict 2 and 3.
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

1) I was responding to the idea that he would as put forth by RedImperator.

2) See my last sentence.

3) I'd imagine that the moderate would be elected on the campaign promise of removing the laws, correct? See my last sentence.
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Post by Glocksman »

Solauren wrote:Here is what I would do if I got control of the US.

*snip*

These are my ideas to reform society away from fundamentalism and improve it.
Are you trying to ignite a civil war??

Hell, I'm not religious at all, but if your government imposed that program, I'd pick up a rifle and separate your head from the rest of your body.

'Freedom!'

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Post by HemlockGrey »

Or maybe those silly Russians were just wasting their time in WW2?
It's not a pyrrhic victory if you so completely beat the other guy that he never threatens you again.

The Russians still exist. Greece was conquered.
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Post by RedImperator »

StarshipTitanic wrote:Excessive cost!=Unnecessary cost

Or maybe those silly Russians were just wasting their time in WW2?
THAT WASN'T A PYRRHIC VICTORY! Jesus Christ, are you being stupid on purpose? The Russians lost millions of men, but in the process they ground the Nazis into the dirt and conquered half of Europe.

At any rate, the pissing match about the meaning of a phrase is a red herring. Demonstrate to me how spending millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours to delete the word "God" from existing government documents is worth the investment, EVEN IF THERE'S NO BACKLASH. Then, if you do that, demonstrate why it's worth it even if it triggers an anti-secuar backlash.
And you said he would, which would be worse than what I did.
Completely irrevelant, as it's your fault he got elected.
Not THAT type of document. Ones in use today.
Today is undefined--there are laws and treaties that have been on the books for 200 years that are still in force. Do they count as today? Even if you limit yourself to documents produced within, say, the last five years, that's still millions of pages to go through for no effective gain.
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Post by Iceberg »

RedImperator wrote:
Vorlon1701 wrote:So I'm not the only one who looked at Solauren's post and thought of yelling either "Sig Heil" or "FREEDOM!"?
I was actually stunned. I thought I'd heard all the worst ideas I'd ever hear in college, but I never should have underestimated the Internet.
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Post by Solauren »

Actually, I was trying to illustrate a point

The only government's that I am aware of that have ever tried to get rid of religion (not seperate it, get ride of it) like Enforcer Talen wanted were the various ones people noted (Communisim, Nazism, Dicatorships, etc)

You'll all notice the bullshit also had good stuff in there, or that I agreed with good ideas to enforce the seperation of government from religion and to help people think (mostly education related. I will admit that my idea for monitoring in the school would be difficult. However, I am all for it and always will be. I had a friend get his ass seriously kicked in high school by some people shortly after he revealed he was an atheist. There were no witnesses and about a dozen people lied for an alibe for the ass-kickers so nothing was ever done about it).

The most extreme stuff was taken from the various anti-religon government types.

Just my rather drawn out attempt to make a point. That coupled with the boredom of my cable tv going out and my girlfriend having to babysit her little brother....
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

At any rate, the pissing match about the meaning of a phrase is a red herring.
I'm not required to use YOUR definition.
Demonstrate to me how spending millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours to delete the word "God" from existing government documents is worth the investment, EVEN IF THERE'S NO BACKLASH. Then, if you do that, demonstrate why it's worth it even if it triggers an anti-secuar backlash.
And just how am I supposed to demonstrate something in a "what if" thread? I already said why I thought it could work and how, now I'm supposed to prove it to be fact? :roll:
Completely irrevelant, as it's your fault he got elected.
...so? You say he will, I say that his effect could actually prove useful to my cause.
Today is undefined--there are laws and treaties that have been on the books for 200 years that are still in force. Do they count as today?
You included useless crap like memos in the documents to be altered when they are clearly not what I meant.

Of course laws written by nonsecular people centuries ago would be edited.

Name some treaties that mention God in them that are still in force today, I'm curious.
Even if you limit yourself to documents produced within, say, the last five years, that's still millions of pages to go through for no effective gain.
Napkins and post-it notes are not official documents
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

I pressed submit by mistake. The last part should say:

"Napkins and post-it notes are not official documents. Only things that dictate law."
"Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me...God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist." -- Academician Prokhor Zakharov

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Post by RedImperator »

StarshipTitanic wrote:
At any rate, the pissing match about the meaning of a phrase is a red herring.
I'm not required to use YOUR definition.
Yes, you are, when you're debating a point that I made using the phrase. If I say "Pyrrhic victory" meaning a victory where the cost exceedes the benefit, you don't get to change my argument by using a different definition of Pyrrhic victory. And all this is still a red herring--you know full Goddamn well what I meant now and have for the last several posts, and you have yet to refute it.
And just how am I supposed to demonstrate something in a "what if" thread? I already said why I thought it could work and how, now I'm supposed to prove it to be fact? :roll:
In other words, you have no real idea of what your plan will accomplish other than moving paper around and wasting money. Concession accepted.
...so? You say he will, I say that his effect could actually prove useful to my cause.
How? You have no real argument for why this will happen, just vague assertions that it will. In my case, there's a clear historical pattern of reformers pushing to hard and too fast and generating a backlash that actually damages their cause. You have no such precedent, and in fact history says that the reaction may last for decades and could take a major outside event to reverse. Woodrow Wilson is a textbook case--he pushed too hard for internationalism to the point of entering WWI, and was rewarded with an isolationist backlash that kept us out of European affairs for 21 years. You may recall from history class what major world event ended that isolationist period.
You included useless crap like memos in the documents to be altered when they are clearly not what I meant.
You said "official documents". I've got news for you pal--memos are official when the right people write them. Thanks to Federal regulatory bureaucracies, a note from some assistant undersecretary nobody's ever heard of can effectively change the law. If you only meant actual coded laws and regulations, it's up to you to specify that. Telepathy, sadly, is not among my many talents.
Of course laws written by nonsecular people centuries ago would be edited.

Name some treaties that mention God in them that are still in force today, I'm curious.
I don't have a mental file of the exact wording of every treaty we've ever signed. It could well be that there aren't any--however, under your plan, somebody would have to go through every one, line by line, to make sure. And so far as I know, the vast majority aren't computerized, so no easy way out like using search algorhithms, unless you scan them all into a database first, which will cost a ton of money (though, THAT project would be far more useful than yours).
Even if you limit yourself to documents produced within, say, the last five years, that's still millions of pages to go through for no effective gain.
Napkins and post-it notes are not official documents
Do you have the slightest idea how much paper the Federal bureaucracy generates? I mean millions of pages of official documents, even by your narrow definition of official. Have fun.
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Re: ok class

Post by AdmiralKanos »

Ignoring off-topic flamewars ...
Enforcer Talen wrote:you have full control of the u.s. government, and while you cannot violate the bill of rights, you can do pretty much anything else.

so, your goal is to eliminate fundamentalism, and in follow up religion. how do you go about it?
OK, here goes:
  1. Fully enforce Jefferson's separation of church and state at all levels (this includes the elimination of various creationist-inspired changes in school curricula, such as modified textbooks promoting intelligent design as if it's an actual "alternate theory").
  2. Pay science and math teachers more than other kinds of teachers, and make them exempt from income tax for life.
  3. Enact a national school standard enforcing the philosophy of logic as a required course. Remove the highly regarded but objectively useless study of Shakespeare in order to free up the necessary class time.
  4. Eliminate all laws giving religions special treatment (eg- a religion is not automatically a tax-free charity; it must show that it puts most of its money toward actual charitable work, just like any secular charity like the United Way)
  5. Eliminate all laws exempting religious people from punishment for crimes that would apply to others (eg- exemptions in child abuse laws giving religious people the right to refuse medical treatment for their children).
And there's my idea.
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Post by AdmiralKanos »

Nathan F wrote:Riiiiiigt...try an eliminate all religion. If that isn't as bigoted a remark as some the fundies make, then I don't know what is.
If we were trying to throw them in jail for having their beliefs (just as they throw people in jail for prostitution; a victimless crime that offends their belief system), that statement would be correct. However, we're not, and you're just a fucking whiner.
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Re: ok class

Post by RedImperator »

AdmiralKanos wrote:[*]Pay science and math teachers more than other kinds of teachers, and make them exempt from income tax for life.
I'd extend the income tax exemption to all teachers. That would allow schools to compete for top graduates without having to compete directly with the private sector for salaries (which wouldn't be possible without ruinous taxes). And I will assume you plan on financing these pay raises by cutting administrative and atheletic budgets, rather than giving pay cuts to, say, social studies teachers. ;)
[*]Enact a national school standard enforcing the philosophy of logic as a required course. Remove the highly regarded but objectively useless study of Shakespeare in order to free up the necessary class time.
Good idea, but removing the study of literature isn't a good idea. It may not be directly applicable to life the way logic is, but literature is a major part of any culture, and teaching people to appreciate their culture will go a long way towards teaching good citizenship. And since Western culture values individualism and objective thought, teaching students to value the West will teach them to respect individual rights and objective thought.

At any rate, you don't need to delete Shakespeare to make room for logic. With ten class periods a day at 42 minutes each (one reserved for lunch, because it's against the law to keep students in school for seven straight hours without food), you could teach science, math, logic, history, civics, English, health/gym (one semester each), Latin (useful in the study of logic and in improving communication skills in general) and two one semester electives over the course of a year. You're only adding an hour a day to school (maybe an hour and a half once you figure in time between classes and homeroom and whatnot), and vastly improving the cirriculum. If seven hours is too long, you can drop the elective.
And there's my idea.
Break the backs of the unions and you might be able to pull these off.
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Re: ok class

Post by AdmiralKanos »

RedImperator wrote:I'd extend the income tax exemption to all teachers. That would allow schools to compete for top graduates without having to compete directly with the private sector for salaries (which wouldn't be possible without ruinous taxes). And I will assume you plan on financing these pay raises by cutting administrative and atheletic budgets, rather than giving pay cuts to, say, social studies teachers. ;)
Taiwan does this. I should have mentioned that I would also legislate that teachers must have managers who actually have the authority to fire incompetent teachers rather than simply shuffling them off to a different school. Make this a federal law, and all collective bargaining agreements containing "no firing" clauses instantly become null and void on that point (any part of a contract which is illegal cannot be enforced).
Good idea, but removing the study of literature isn't a good idea.
Not all literature: just Shakespeare. Frankly, I think the Bard has had a very long stay at the top of the educational hill and it's time to get rid of him. If you add up the time spent in high school on the study of Shakespeare alone, it's more than enough to squeeze in whole courses, even if you don't have to take these courses every single year.
Break the backs of the unions and you might be able to pull these off.
Unfortunately, a great many social improvement theories rely on breaking the backs of venal, self-serving unions who use the public as bargaining chips.
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Post by StarshipTitanic »

I give up, RedImperator.
Not all literature: just Shakespeare. Frankly, I think the Bard has had a very long stay at the top of the educational hill and it's time to get rid of him. If you add up the time spent in high school on the study of Shakespeare alone, it's more than enough to squeeze in whole courses, even if you don't have to take these courses every single year.
I'm starting to suspect that he is favored because it's an easy way to avoid introducing potentially controversial work, easily avoiding the whines of parents. Old=Ok. :roll:
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Post by Durandal »

I'd just assume remove gym classes. School is a place for academics and learning. The idea of using classroom time to teach sports is just inane. If parents want their kids to stay in shape or get some sort of physical education, they can enroll them in any number of other programs.

After putting all the inept teaching staff of the world (read: gym teachers) out of work, it'd be nice to strike out the massive amounts of time dedicated to bullshit courses like Shakespeare. I'm sorry, but passing those classes relies exclusively on a student's ability to bullshit and sound philosophical. While bullshitting is a valuable skill, it shouldn't be taught in schools. There are trade schools for that. English classes should be devoted to improving students' essay-writing skills. Quite frankly though, you could just replace English classes entirely with a Logic and Reasoning course. Essay-writing relies heavily on argumentation anyway, and it'd be simple to critique a student's grammar while evaluating his arguments. Being able to form a good argument and being able to express that argument go hand-in-hand, and so the courses dealing with those subjects should be combined.

Next up is abolishing governmentally-funded athletic scholarships. This is money that could be put toward helping kids who actually worked in school to get into a good university without having to worry about making ends meet. Athletes should not have an easier time paying tuition than people who are smarter than they are. Athletics is not scholarly, period. Hence no athletic scholarships should be given out. Hell, with the massive amounts of money being thrown at people who can catch a ball freed up, we could probably make public higher education free. If you plan to earn a living playing sports professionally, good luck, but such an absurdly low success-rate choice of vocation should not be assisted by tax money.
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Post by Howedar »

There is no word for how against removal of PE and/or sports I am. School is not just for learning academics; it is for learning how to function in the real world. Riding on a cart cause you wiegh fucking 500 pounds is not functional.



On the rest, I agree 100% with Mike.
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Re: ok class

Post by CelesKnight »

AdmiralKanos wrote:Ignoring off-topic flamewars ...
Enforcer Talen wrote:you have full control of the u.s. government, and while you cannot violate the bill of rights, you can do pretty much anything else.

so, your goal is to eliminate fundamentalism, and in follow up religion. how do you go about it?
OK, here goes:
  1. Fully enforce Jefferson's separation of church and state at all levels (this includes the elimination of various creationist-inspired changes in school curricula, such as modified textbooks promoting intelligent design as if it's an actual "alternate theory").
  2. Pay science and math teachers more than other kinds of teachers, and make them exempt from income tax for life.

I think that a tax-exempt status for life would be counter productive. People could teach for one year and move on. It might also create discord between teachers "Why do you get this and I don't?" It would be better to offer all teachers tax emempt status while teaching. Then perhaps it could become permanent after a certain number of years.

As long as I'm replying, I have a nitpick. Most of us have been planning education changes, but that technicaly violates the Bill of Rights (tenth admendment). "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

From: U.S. National Archives
"Q. Where, in the Constitution, is there mention of education?
A. There is none; education is a matter reserved for the States."

Not that that matters, of course. The federal gov't already influances education via various loopholes.
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Post by RedImperator »

I disagree about pulling Shakespeare, though there are programs where you could afford to drop a play or two in favor of other writers (my old high school usually did one play a year). Mixed into English would also be grammar and composition.

My old high school had a system for teaching writing that actually worked very well. First year English was almost entirely grammar and composition, with the big project a college quality research paper. They'd grade everything--outlines, notes, rough drafts, the works, and teach the most efficient way to do it. They especially stressed documentation. That would be done by Christmas. In January, you'd get the same assignment in history, except that while you'd be graded on all the preliminary material, it was your responsibility to know how to do it. The next year, you'd get the same assignment in English in history, only with less supervision, and you wouldn't be graded on preliminary material except to get a check if you turned it in and a zero if you didn't. Junior year, same thing again, and they'd only ask to see your preliminary material to see that you were working on the project, no grade at all. Senior year, same thing, except you get the assignment in September, a due date in March (with the option to turn it in early by Christmas and get a chance to improve it if you didn't like the grade), and you're left on your own. By the time I hit college, the only difficult thing about a research paper was that I only had one semester to do it. It gave me a huge advantage over almost everyone else in my classes, including the kids who'd gone to hoity-toity private schools.

As to the 10th Amendment: there are ways to implement programs without violating it (or at least not more than it's already been violated). First of all, income tax is a Federal power, so granting teachers tax-exempt status would not pose a problem (there might be other issues that I'm not aware of, but not any 10th Amendment ones--of course, teachers could still be liable for state income taxes). Cirriculum standards could be enforced by cutting off Federal education money to states that don't comply. It's not perfect: a state could tell the Feds to go fuck themselves and set a substandard cirriculum if they thought they could afford it, and I'm not really a fan of Federal extortion schemes like that, but it would work.

Alternately, you could pass a Constitutional amendment giving Congress a right to set a national minimal cirriculum standard, but frankly, I'd rather deal with the states one at a time than give Congress that much power (the potential for abuse is enormous, and unlike the current system, if they did something shitty like mandate "intelligent design" in biology class, you couldn't move to another school district to escape it).
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Post by CelesKnight »

Durandal wrote:I'd just assume remove gym classes. School is a place for academics and learning. The idea of using classroom time to teach sports is just inane.
I dislike the idea of removing PE. Kids are too fat already and so there should be some encouragement for sports. (Side note: I agree with removing athletic scholarships.)

On a somewhat off-topic note, many of us want to change education to emphasis science. I wonder if our current school system should be split into two distinct parts. The first is the important subjects needed to be a productive, informed citizen, like math, science, English structure and usage, logic, “name and dates” history[1], civics, economics, etc. The second is the other subjects. Music, art, foreign languages,[2] gym, health, drivers ed., literature, home ec., other history, shop, etc. The first group would be overseen by the Federal government and paid by it. The gov’t could then ensure that students are actually learning it. The second would still be paid for and under the control of the states and school boards. For practical reasons, these might still be taught in the same building by the same people.

[1]--I think that an overview of history is needed for an understanding of what's going on in the world; hence it falls in this category. As does American history and the history of wars, governments, and economics. Local history and the "how does this make you feel" part of history would be part of the second category.

[2]--I've heard that teaching music, art, and forign languages to very young kids greatly improves their ability to learn other subjects later. If so, these would be in the "important" group for young kids and the "unimportant" parts for older kids.
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Iceberg
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Re: ok class

Post by Iceberg »

AdmiralKanos wrote:Ignoring off-topic flamewars ...
Enforcer Talen wrote:you have full control of the u.s. government, and while you cannot violate the bill of rights, you can do pretty much anything else.

so, your goal is to eliminate fundamentalism, and in follow up religion. how do you go about it?
OK, here goes:
  1. Fully enforce Jefferson's separation of church and state at all levels (this includes the elimination of various creationist-inspired changes in school curricula, such as modified textbooks promoting intelligent design as if it's an actual "alternate theory").
  2. Pay science and math teachers more than other kinds of teachers, and make them exempt from income tax for life.
  3. Enact a national school standard enforcing the philosophy of logic as a required course. Remove the highly regarded but objectively useless study of Shakespeare in order to free up the necessary class time.
  4. Eliminate all laws giving religions special treatment (eg- a religion is not automatically a tax-free charity; it must show that it puts most of its money toward actual charitable work, just like any secular charity like the United Way)
  5. Eliminate all laws exempting religious people from punishment for crimes that would apply to others (eg- exemptions in child abuse laws giving religious people the right to refuse medical treatment for their children).
And there's my idea.
1: Not a problem.

2: Why? As others pointed out, there's no need to single out science and math teachers - exempt ALL teachers from income tax.

3: Yes with the first, why on the second? How much Shakespeare do you REALLY get in high school? Other than a unit in sophomore English and a drama elective in junior year, I barely saw the Bard at all. I saw more Kubrick in high school than Shakespeare (more Kubrick than I really wanted to - 2001: A Space Odyssey is a profoundly BORING movie when you're watching it sober).

4: No comment whatsoever.

5: I agree in theory, but in practice, parents have power of attorney over their children, and power of attorney includes the ability to refuse medical treatment. Unless you fundamentally change the rights of minors (not necessarily a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination) in the US, you cannot force parents to surrender PoA without a court order.
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Re: ok class

Post by Darth Wong »

Iceberg wrote:2: Why? As others pointed out, there's no need to single out science and math teachers - exempt ALL teachers from income tax.
Actually, there is a need to single out math and science teachers. We're talking about fighting fundamentalism, and a solid grounding in math and science is the first element in that equation. Since people who take math and science must work much harder in university and take much more difficult material with much greater entrance requirements (don't bullshit me, I know the entrance requirements for physics vs history or english), it is ridiculous to pay them the same wage as an arts teacher who took a much easier course in university and is in much greater supply.
3: Yes with the first, why on the second? How much Shakespeare do you REALLY get in high school? Other than a unit in sophomore English and a drama elective in junior year, I barely saw the Bard at all. I saw more Kubrick in high school than Shakespeare (more Kubrick than I really wanted to - 2001: A Space Odyssey is a profoundly BORING movie when you're watching it sober).
If you neglected Shakespeare and watched movies in English class, then your English classes were profoundly dissimilar to mine.
5: I agree in theory, but in practice, parents have power of attorney over their children, and power of attorney includes the ability to refuse medical treatment. Unless you fundamentally change the rights of minors (not necessarily a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination) in the US, you cannot force parents to surrender PoA without a court order.
The thread specifies that we run the government and can make whatever changes we want (limited only by the Bill of Rights, which does not address this issue). If the law must be altered, the law must be altered.
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Re: ok class

Post by Iceberg »

Darth Wong wrote:
3: Yes with the first, why on the second? How much Shakespeare do you REALLY get in high school? Other than a unit in sophomore English and a drama elective in junior year, I barely saw the Bard at all. I saw more Kubrick in high school than Shakespeare (more Kubrick than I really wanted to - 2001: A Space Odyssey is a profoundly BORING movie when you're watching it sober).
If you neglected Shakespeare and watched movies in English class, then your English classes were profoundly dissimilar to mine.
In my high school, our english requirements were up until 10th grade and we had elective English for the last two years (it was required that we take the classes, but which classes we took were our own prerogative) - the three elective English classes that I remember most vividly were drama (11th grade winter), science fiction (11th grade spring) and mystery/suspense (12th grade fall).

Most people I know get insanely jealous when they find out that my high school had an elective English class in science fiction. ;)
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Post by Hamel »

Cut Shakespeare from English class PLEASE

Having students take turns at reading passages from the plays is a waste of time and an embarassing undertaking for many students.
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