The term "terrorism" is statist

[aerius]

War is not pretty. War is about killing people and destroying the enemy's ability and will to fight. Terrorism is carrying out the above by means that are frowned upon. Simple as that. You can argue about it all day but in the end that's all it comes down to.

[Darth Wong]

Well, I'll agree that terrorism as a definition is worthless in the context of the Law of War. However, terrorists are also illegal combatants (though not all illegal combatants are terrorists, of course). And I would contend that the Law of War is an important covenant between nations which, if kept, can serve to greatly reduce civilian bloodshed--but has the inherent failing of being something which is less law than, indeed, just that, a covenant. A law covering several nations can never really be enforced, so one must entrust it to the common desire of those nations for such an agreement to be kept.

The Law of War is a shifting target, however. Take civilian bombing; it was once regarded as an utterly barbaric tactic, totally beneath civilized nations even in warfare. However, it was just as quickly justified when one side wished to retaliate against the other side for doing it, and it was now permissible.

There is a point where one must question whether the law is anything more than long-winded window-dressing upon an informal "gut-check" level of what a few nations' people feel is acceptable at any given time. When one considers that the level of tolerance for uncivilized behaviour seems to escalate when dealing with nations whose cultures are less like our own, it becomes troubling, does it not?

[HemlockGrey]

The Emperor did. Their contrary opinion is irrelevant.

The Emperor had very little power; Tojo was the real leader of Japan.

It wouldn't. However, the Emperor is in charge, remember? Small detail you apparently missed in your studies.

The Emperor is a figurehead; the bombs gave his order to surrender some authority and credence, and even then the military attempted to reseize power.

THEN YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE POSTED IN THIS THREAD, ASSHOLE

Somebody made a point comparing WTC and Hiroshima and I contested it. Perhaps I should have started a new thread to do so, but it's hardly the massive infraction that you make it out to be.

[Stuart Mackey]

Oh wait, you're going for the "japs are all crazy" line of reasoning, aren't you? Perhaps you should wear your KKK hat when you post.

Maybe you should fucking LEARN some history. There was a fucking COUP
that occured when the Emperor was going to broadcast his speech announcing
the surrender of Japan.

His broadcast almost didn't make it to the radio stations.

Shep, speaking of history, the coup attempts were in isolated areas and never had any effect on the surrender broadcast going to air. The coup attempts were also by individuals and were not an organised thing.

[Darth Wong]

The Emperor is a figurehead; the bombs gave his order to surrender some authority and credence, and even then the military attempted to reseize power.

And failed. Prove that he would been unable to do what he did if anything less had been done.

Somebody made a point comparing WTC and Hiroshima and I contested it. Perhaps I should have started a new thread to do so, but it's hardly the massive infraction that you make it out to be.

It is WHEN YOU ACTIVELY FIGHT AGAINST ANY ATTEMPT TO RELATE IT TO THE THREAD TOPIC.

[Gil Hamilton]

Then the ones employing less than 250 people would be in the urban areas just like I contended and just like the report stated, and, ergo, the reason for the firebombing? Thank you for conceding.

Wrong-o, nowhere in the report does it state that "miscellaneous industrial targets" are only those that employeed more than 250. "Miscellanous industrial targets" would include factories with that employed both more and less than 250 people. The report only states that they were heavily damaged in the attacks, which would be consistant with saturation bombing by incendiary bombs, not that they were the primary target. Any attacks that were actually directed against them would have been listed under "miscellaneous industrial targets", not under "urban areas". There is little reason, if they were going after specifically those plants, that they'd pick Tokyo's most densely populated residential area and saturation bomb it so that the entire area was burned down during a night time raid.

[HemlockGrey]

nd failed. Prove that he would been unable to do what he did if anything less had been done.

And what would you have liked? Starving the population out? That was already happening, and the Japanese weren't surrendering. Launch an invasion? The initial landings would have been massive bloodbaths and given the military much more authority as they actively repelled invaders.

The bombs were the cheapest, surest, most effective way to bring about the fall of imperial Japan while risking as few casualties as possible.

[Darth Wong]

nd failed. Prove that he would been unable to do what he did if anything less had been done.

And what would you have liked? Starving the population out? That was already happening, and the Japanese weren't surrendering. Launch an invasion? The initial landings would have been massive bloodbaths and given the military much more authority as they actively repelled invaders.

The bombs were the cheapest, surest, most effective way to bring about the fall of imperial Japan while risking as few casualties as possible.

False dilemma fallacy: forcing a choice between the use of the bombs as it was and no A-bombs at all, even though I have already listed other possible uses of those bombs. This is a pretty cheap way to debate, kid.

[HemlockGrey]

False dilemma fallacy: forcing a choice between the use of the bombs as it was and no A-bombs at all, even though I have already listed other possible uses of those bombs. This is a pretty cheap way to debate, kid.

When the destruction of an entire city does not convince the military and the emperor that surrender is necessary, why would the destruction of a single town? We already had the capability to annhilate a small town.

[Darth Wong]

False dilemma fallacy: forcing a choice between the use of the bombs as it was and no A-bombs at all, even though I have already listed other possible uses of those bombs. This is a pretty cheap way to debate, kid.

When the destruction of an entire city does not convince the military and the emperor that surrender is necessary, why would the destruction of a single town?

Does not convince him QUICKLY ENOUGH FOR YOU. Your unstated claim that they would NEVER have moved unless the second bomb was dropped (hence no reason to wait more than a few days for their response) is as unjustified as the rest of your bullshit.

We already had the capability to annhilate a small town.

And you already had the capability to annihilate a large city through conventional means. So what? The point was to show that you had nuclear weapons capable of doing so far more easily, and a small town would have accomplished that.

[Howedar]

Oh wait, you're going for the "japs are all crazy" line of reasoning, aren't you? Perhaps you should wear your KKK hat when you post.

Maybe you should fucking LEARN some history. There was a fucking COUP
that occured when the Emperor was going to broadcast his speech announcing
the surrender of Japan.

His broadcast almost didn't make it to the radio stations.

Shep, speaking of history, the coup attempts were in isolated areas and never had any effect on the surrender broadcast going to air. The coup attempts were also by individuals and were not an organised thing.

What of the coup inside the Imperial Palace? I know the History Channel is not held in particuarly high regard here, but do you accuse them of literally making events up?

[Stuart Mackey]

The Emperor did. Their contrary opinion is irrelevant.

The Emperor had very little power; Tojo was the real leader of Japan.

It wouldn't. However, the Emperor is in charge, remember? Small detail you apparently missed in your studies.

The Emperor is a figurehead; the bombs gave his order to surrender some authority and credence, and even then the military attempted to reseize power.

The Emperor was very much an activist in the political affairs of his nation. His entire education and upbringing were to rule, not mearly reign. The veiw that he was a puppet came about after the war when Tojo took the fall for the Emperor and the US needed to legitimise their own action within Japan post war.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Wrong-o, nowhere in the report does it state that "miscellaneous industrial targets" are only those that employeed more than 250. "Miscellanous industrial targets" would include factories with that employed both more and less than 250 people.

Why do you presume this? An industrial target is just that--an industrial facility which is being targeted.

The report only states that they were heavily damaged in the attacks, which would be consistant with saturation bombing by incendiary bombs, not that they were the primary target. Any attacks that were actually directed against them would have been listed under "miscellaneous industrial targets", not under "urban areas". There is little reason, if they were going after specifically those plants, that they'd pick Tokyo's most densely populated residential area and saturation bomb it so that the entire area was burned down during a night time raid.

Listen, dumbfucker, or more precisely, learn how to read:

They still relied, however, on plants employing less than 250 workers for subcontracted parts and equipment. Many of these smaller plants were concentrated in Tokyo and accounted for 50 percent of the total industrial output of the city. Such plants suffered severe damage in urban incendiary attacks.

The plants suffered severe damage in urban incendiary attacks. Do you think this was coincidental? Do you think the bomb tonnage totals for urban areas--where these plants were concentrated happen to have no connection to this whatsoever?

It does not say they were the miscellaneous industrial targets--it says they were damaged as part of the urban raids. In fact, it states that these plants supplied other plants. We're dealing with a specific category here, then. And considering the reduction of Japan's economic capacity was the stated goal of the bombing, the destruction of FIFTY PERCENT OF TOKYO'S INDUSTRIAL CAPACITY seems a pretty good reason to engage in the incendiary raids.

[Darth Wong]

Shep, speaking of history, the coup attempts were in isolated areas and never had any effect on the surrender broadcast going to air. The coup attempts were also by individuals and were not an organised thing.

What of the coup inside the Imperial Palace? I know the History Channel is not held in particuarly high regard here, but do you accuse them of literally making events up?

So what? If the military government were as unified as Shep and Grey make it out to be on this issue, the coup would not have failed. It's as simple as that.

[Stuart Mackey]

Maybe you should fucking LEARN some history. There was a fucking COUP
that occured when the Emperor was going to broadcast his speech announcing
the surrender of Japan.

His broadcast almost didn't make it to the radio stations.

Shep, speaking of history, the coup attempts were in isolated areas and never had any effect on the surrender broadcast going to air. The coup attempts were also by individuals and were not an organised thing.

What of the coup inside the Imperial Palace? I know the History Channel is not held in particuarly high regard here, but do you accuse them of literally making events up?

I didnt say there was not a few guys who had a bee up their ass about the surrender, I am saying that they were never in a position to do anything.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Shep, speaking of history, the coup attempts were in isolated areas and never had any effect on the surrender broadcast going to air. The coup attempts were also by individuals and were not an organised thing.

Other than killing the commander of the division guarding the Imperial palace when he refused to go along with the coup, and preventing the recording from being transported to the main radio station in Tokyo because it was inside the Palace? Along with, of course, conducting a search for said recording so they could destroy it?

[Patrick Degan]

The bomb wiped out Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the military government did not want to surrender.

The Emperor did. Their contrary opinion is irrelevant.

If the destruction of an entire city failed to make the military leadership wish to surrender, what the hell makes you think the destruction of a village or small town would have?

It wouldn't. However, the Emperor is in charge, remember? Small detail you apparently missed in your studies.

The actual situation was a little bit more complex.

The Japanese government had been seeking a face-saving political solution to the war from the time Saipan fell to the Americans. From the Philippines onward, the only real Japanese war aim was to inflict enough allied casualties to make them more amenable at the negotiation table to allow the Empire to avoid the ignominy of surrender and to ensure that the Imperial institution would survive the war. However, the Emperor himself had very little actual power in the government and certainly no authority to issue direct orders, as per the Meiji Constitution. Hirohito only gained the authority to order the surrender when Prime Minister Suzuki ceeded it to him at the Cabinet meeting following Nagasaki's destruction.

[Darth Wong]

Shep, speaking of history, the coup attempts were in isolated areas and never had any effect on the surrender broadcast going to air. The coup attempts were also by individuals and were not an organised thing.

Other than killing the commander of the division guarding the Imperial palace when he refused to go along with the coup, and preventing the recording from being transported to the main radio station in Tokyo because it was inside the Palace? Along with, of course, conducting a search for said recording so they could destroy it?

How does this mean that it was highly organized? It means that the men guilty of the coup had a plan, but it does not imply or indicate a large scale of organization, and certainly not a unity of purpose among the military on this issue.

[Darth Wong]

The actual situation was a little bit more complex.

I know, I remember reading some of the machinations, but I wasn't feeling motivated to get detailed.

The Japanese government had been seeking a face-saving political solution to the war from the time Saipan fell to the Americans. From the Philippines onward, the only real Japanese war aim was to inflict enough allied casualties to make them more amenable at the negotiation table to allow the Empire to avoid the ignominy of surrender and to ensure that the Imperial institution would survive the war. However, the Emperor himself had very little actual power in the government and certainly no authority to issue direct orders, as per the Meiji Constitution. Hirohito only gained the authority to order the surrender when Prime Minister Suzuki ceeded it to him at the Cabinet meeting following Nagasaki's destruction.

Nevertheless, the widespread claim that the government was unified in refusing to surrender is nonsense, and there is no proof that anything less than two heavily populated cities in less than a week were the absolute minimum to force their hand.

[HemlockGrey]

Does not convince him QUICKLY ENOUGH FOR YOU. Your unstated claim that they would NEVER have moved unless the second bomb was dropped (hence no reason to wait more than a few days for their response) is as unjustified as the rest of your bullshit.

Which still brings us back to the fact that the atomic bomb was the cheapest way(in terms of lives) to force surrender.

Japan did not surrender after the first bomb, and it was not going to surrender; the military believed that America had only one bomb.

And you already had the capability to annihilate a large city through conventional means. So what? The point was to show that you had nuclear weapons capable of doing so far more easily, and a small town would have accomplished that.

So after killing 100,000 civilians in a firebombin attack on Tokyo, wiping out a town of 10,000 people would have awed them into surrender?

[Darth Wong]

Does not convince him QUICKLY ENOUGH FOR YOU. Your unstated claim that they would NEVER have moved unless the second bomb was dropped (hence no reason to wait more than a few days for their response) is as unjustified as the rest of your bullshit.

Which still brings us back to the fact that the atomic bomb was the cheapest way(in terms of lives) to force surrender.

Japan did not surrender after the first bomb, and it was not going to surrender; the military believed that America had only one bomb.

So the existence of a second bomb would not have changed their minds even if they had two weeks to examine the first bomb site and even if they demonstrated it in some less lethal fashion than they did? Interesting claim. Care to justify it? Also care to justify your claim that the first demonstration would have been useless if it was on a smaller target?

So after killing 100,000 civilians in a firebombin attack on Tokyo, wiping out a town of 10,000 people would have awed them into surrender?

They killed less people in Hiroshima than they did in Tokyo. The point was the nature of the bomb, which you are ignoring now in your haste to construct sophistic arguments.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

How does this mean that it was highly organized? It means that the men guilty of the coup had a plan, but it does not imply or indicate a large scale of organization, and certainly not a unity of purpose among the military on this issue.

It was highly organized--and atrociously executed--but it was basically a group of younger officers in a limited number of units, supported by several of the really radical old expansionists, yes.

[Stuart Mackey]

Shep, speaking of history, the coup attempts were in isolated areas and never had any effect on the surrender broadcast going to air. The coup attempts were also by individuals and were not an organised thing.

Other than killing the commander of the division guarding the Imperial palace when he refused to go along with the coup, and preventing the recording from being transported to the main radio station in Tokyo because it was inside the Palace? Along with, of course, conducting a search for said recording so they could destroy it?

Oh and dont forget that the army never went along with it, and the broadcast went ahead. It was an isolated attempt, serious, granted, but it was not an organised attempt by units of the imperial army.

[Howedar]

There could not have been a force-wide organized attempt, as the entire proceedings were secret.

[Darth Wong]

There could not have been a force-wide organized attempt, as the entire proceedings were secret.

Kept secret for fear of being caught, because the conspirators knew that the majority of the military would not go along with them. Precisely the point, is it not?