Middle East: Analysis

[Guest]

Erm before I decide to say anything I just wanted everyone to know that these views are solely my own and I do no feel the need to press them upon anyone. Simple experience has taught me that the use of shouting or argument to forward points which are more likely correct then not over points held by persons whose views are clouded by ignorance is a totally incorrect approach. So I will simply try to demonstrate my point in a logical and conclusive way. I understand that some of you may feel the need to insult me or what I have said, and I perfectly understand that. Therefore should you bring up a valid point I will be more then happy to answer back. Anything else which simply laughs or mocks I could care less about. I don’t hold grudges so I really don’t care if you feel like fighting World War 3 with me over this topic. Anyway, here goes my little analytical study:

Middle East: Analysis

Perfectly understanding the view of many people on the topic of the Middle East is quite difficult. That is quite understandable for many reasons. Many of these include misinformation, ignorance, or human greed for dominance, or simply the will to not care which ignorance is generally. Misinformation simply refers to the use of sources which will tell you anything to get you to follow their train of thought. These include religious authorities, government sources, terrorist groups (by which I mean groups which wage war upon the relations of not declaring guerilla warfare and thus not part of any organized institution or government), and all other such affiliated organizations with simple set mind goals. Ignorance applies to the simple human idea that we need not care about the world and what happens around us or that we can trust others to do things for us without having to trouble ourselves. Essentially this is shown in many historical examples such as America not caring about Hitler’s concentration camps, people forgetting wars and the people who fought to achieve victories for them, etc. This simply means that people do not want to care because they see in no way affecting their style of life or being. Essentially this can mostly be contributed to failing educational institutions and corrupt morals, though that is essentially another topic. Finally we come to the last important topic which is simple human greed and the desire to do things. What this means is that people will do anything they can to gain power and dominion over others to control the world around them, this could be anyone from the highest levels of government to the simple side walk man preaching the end of the world so that people will do what he says. Essentially these three points all come together in the final conclusion of being interconnected. They play an essential point in our lives and whether we like it or not we all fall for them at one point or another.

So, let us having got that out of the way, proceed to the next topic, of Israel’s occupation of the land given to it by the United Nations. Now for this to be understood we have to look at a simple tenet upon which most of the history of Europe: anti-Semitism. Europeans have always held the deep belief that everything that went bad was the Jews fault, wither because they were more successful then them, or because they were the easy scapegoats to blame for things by the Church which hated them for killing Christ. Essentially during the Medieval Ages it was a battle between two titanic adversaries of religion: Christianity and Judaism over who controls Europe and Christianity and Judaism vs. Islam and then vs. each other over who controls the holy land. Now the reason that I say this is because as a result of the Crusades the entire population of Jerusalem was annihilated by Christian Crusaders. As a result the Jewish population living in the vicinity of the current Israeli lands was heavily deleted. As a result this is merely to demonstrate the point that the Jew’s have been living on that land even after being forced out by the Romans and other various invaders. This destruction of the Jewish and might I add large percentage of the Muslim populations was a devastating thing. However even after having annihilated the most of Jerusalem’s population the Church still did not feel that Jews could not still be used as scapegoats. Essentially this led to the development of an Anti-Semitic Europe. As a result when Hitler came to power and began to speak his never ending tirades of killing the Jews and how they were to blame for everything nothing new was happening. This is one of the key reasons that when he set up his concentration camps many Europeans were more then willing to help him get rid of the Jews. Meanwhile Americans simply maintained ignorance and did not care enough about the rest of the world at the time to do anything. For example when a boat load of Jewish immigrants tried to land in the United States pleading asylum from Hitler they were turned away because people simply could not believe that such atrocities were possible.

As a result of this several century long build up of hatred and ignorance Hitler was able to kill some 6 million Jews. When the dust settled and everyone realized of the atrocities that had occurred they suddenly felt sorry for the Jewish people. The Zionist campaign to recognize Israel as the Jewish homeland was once again restarted and Jews were finally granted a home by the same people who had merely a few hundred years ago annihilated the entire Jewish population of Jerusalem because they felt like it. At the same time the current occupants of the land controlled I believe by the British were a groups referred to as the Palestinians. They were considered the outcasts of the Islamic world and thus no one really cared about them. However when the Arab world learned that the land that these Palestinians were currently squatting one was going to be turned over to the Jews they suddenly felt a long held hatred re-arise. They told the Palestinians that the new Jewish settlers were going to kill them all and the scared Palestinians ran away to little camps set up for them. The Jewish settlers tried to have them stay but they simply would not here of it, because of course they were going to get slaughtered, with UN troops near by, and even after being welcomed in. As a result the years went by and the Arabs realized that Israel was simply too strong military wise to take it down. So they began to tell the Palestinians lies about how this land was their land, about how the Jews forced them out, about how they would have of had the same great industry that Israel now has if they had not been kicked out, and etc. So began the onslaught of fighting.

When the Palestinians said that they wanted to be let back into Israel they were told that if they went back in they would greatly outnumber the small Jewish population. Simple had they not left when they did they would have been able to mix freely and no such problems would be encountered. However by now they so greatly outnumbered Jews that it was preposterous to think that Israel would remain Israel after they returned. Then they were offered their own land, but time after time they rejected it. Simply because they have no industry and would not do anything with the land even if they could. All they wanted was for the technology the Jews had built and their land and the Jews gone. So they began to start blowing themselves up. And then started saying that this was the only way they could win.

As a result of their deep seated hate for the Jews there is no solution to this problem but to force them out to their Arab buddies who so happily use them to do their dirty work. You want to give them land? What the hell are they going to do with that land? They don’t know anything better then constant hate and warfare, and they don’t want to learn anything better. Next after you give them land they’ll start demanding industry to survive and then more and more. It will never end. As a result of the world tying Israel’s hands behind its back this problem seems to have no end. Maybe we should wait till the Arabs gain a nuclear weapon to start trying to solve the problem? I guess we will the way things are going. But I simply will not stand for it.

That’s just my view. I’m sorry if you don’t agree with it. I simply feel that this is a correct and unbiased approach. Maybe I’m wrong, only time will tell.

[Frank Hipper]

While this understandably comes up frequently in discussions in this forum, we have a moratorium on Israel being the focus of threads. For several of your own reasons, actually.

Anyhoo, welcome.

[Guest]

This is perfectly understandable. Thank you for the welcome.

[Hamel]

Greetings

If there's anything you should know, it's that you shouldn't eat stale bread






ever

[Xenophobe3691]

IVP threads are supposed to be locked.

Oh, and the Holocaust didn't restart Zionism. It's obvious you don't even know the history of the state you wish to debate. Once you can tell me who the Haganah and Etzel organizations are, as well as Lord Balfour, then you can come back and start debating.

[Vympel]

I'm loathe to lock this ... curious ... first post up considering what fun could be had with it, but ... bloody hell I guess I must. There'll be other times on other topics to debate with our latest new comer- but not IVP.

[Colonel Olrik]

Middle East: Analysis

While there's a general ban on this topic, your analysis warrants some further discussion, so I'll let the thread stay open.

Perfectly understanding the view of many people on the topic of the Middle East is quite difficult. That is quite understandable for many reasons. Many of these include misinformation, ignorance, or human greed for dominance, or simply the will to not care which ignorance is generally. Misinformation simply refers to the use of sources which will tell you anything to get you to follow their train of thought.

Meaning, there are liars and ignorants in the world

These include religious authorities, government sources, terrorist groups (by which I mean groups which wage war upon the relations of not declaring guerilla warfare and thus not part of any organized institution or government), and all other such affiliated organizations with simple set mind goals.

There's a thread about the definition of terrorism active right now, I suggest you posting there your definition instead of debating it here.

Ignorance applies to the simple human idea that we need not care about the world and what happens around us or that we can trust others to do things for us without having to trouble ourselves. Essentially this is shown in many historical examples such as America not caring about Hitler’s concentration camps, people forgetting wars and the people who fought to achieve victories for them, etc.

Being complacent, isolationist or ungrateful doesn't equate being ignorant of the facts.

This simply means that people do not want to care because they see in no way affecting their style of life or being. Essentially this can mostly be contributed to failing educational institutions and corrupt morals, though that is essentially another topic. Finally we come to the last important topic which is simple human greed and the desire to do things. What this means is that people will do anything they can to gain power and dominion over others to control the world around them, this could be anyone from the highest levels of government to the simple side walk man preaching the end of the world so that people will do what he says. Essentially these three points all come together in the final conclusion of being interconnected. They play an essential point in our lives and whether we like it or not we all fall for them at one point or another.

Meaning that people have a basic motivation to strive for a better life.

So, let us having got that out of the way, proceed to the next topic, of Israel’s occupation of the land given to it by the United Nations.

Wrong. Israel is occupying much more land than that originally given by the U.N.

Now for this to be understood we have to look at a simple tenet upon which most of the history of Europe: anti-Semitism. Europeans have always held the deep belief that everything that went bad was the Jews fault, wither because they were more successful then them, or because they were the easy scapegoats to blame for things by the Church which hated them for killing Christ.

Not related to the current situation.

Essentially during the Medieval Ages it was a battle between two titanic adversaries of religion: Christianity and Judaism over who controls Europe and Christianity and Judaism vs. Islam and then vs. each other over who controls the holy land.

Not related to the current situation.

Now the reason that I say this is because as a result of the Crusades the entire population of Jerusalem was annihilated by Christian Crusaders. As a result the Jewish population living in the vicinity of the current Israeli lands was heavily deleted.

During that time, all the region was occupied by muslims, not jews. The crusades were against muslims, not jews.

As a result this is merely to demonstrate the point that the Jew’s have been living on that land even after being forced out by the Romans and other various invaders. This destruction of the Jewish and might I add large percentage of the Muslim populations was a devastating thing.

Not relevant to the current situation.

However even after having annihilated the most of Jerusalem’s population the Church still did not feel that Jews could not still be used as scapegoats. Essentially this led to the development of an Anti-Semitic Europe. As a result when Hitler came to power and began to speak his never ending tirades of killing the Jews and how they were to blame for everything nothing new was happening. This is one of the key reasons that when he set up his concentration camps many Europeans were more then willing to help him get rid of the Jews

Meanwhile Americans simply maintained ignorance and did not care enough about the rest of the world at the time to do anything. For example when a boat load of Jewish immigrants tried to land in the United States pleading asylum from Hitler they were turned away because people simply could not believe that such atrocities were possible.

Not relevant to the current situation.

As a result of this several century long build up of hatred and ignorance Hitler was able to kill some 6 million Jews. When the dust settled and everyone realized of the atrocities that had occurred they suddenly felt sorry for the Jewish people.

Not relevant to the current situation.

The Zionist campaign to recognize Israel as the Jewish homeland was once again restarted and Jews were finally granted a home by the same people who had merely a few hundred years ago annihilated the entire Jewish population of Jerusalem because they felt like it.
At the same time the current occupants of the land controlled I believe by the British were a groups referred to as the Palestinians. They were considered the outcasts of the Islamic world and thus no one really cared about them. However when the Arab world learned that the land that these Palestinians were currently squatting one was going to be turned over to the Jews they suddenly felt a long held hatred re-arise. They told the Palestinians that the new Jewish settlers were going to kill them all and the scared Palestinians ran away to little camps set up for them. The Jewish settlers tried to have them stay but they simply would not here of it, because of course they were going to get slaughtered, with UN troops near by, and even after being welcomed in. As a result the years went by and the Arabs realized that Israel was simply too strong military wise to take it down.

What a little one sided history, but again not relevant to the current situation.

So they began to tell the Palestinians lies about how this land was their land, about how the Jews forced them out, about how they would have of had the same great industry that Israel now has if they had not been kicked out, and etc. So began the onslaught of fighting.

What the fuck? You admited earlier in this post that the palestinians lived there first, and now you're telling that's a lie? Make up your mind. Were they expelled from their homes or not?

And what about the current occupied territories? Did the U.N give them to Israel, or are they being conquered by force?

When the Palestinians said that they wanted to be let back into Israel they were told that if they went back in they would greatly outnumber the small Jewish population. Simple had they not left when they did they would have been able to mix freely and no such problems would be encountered. However by now they so greatly outnumbered Jews that it was preposterous to think that Israel would remain Israel after they returned.

Why? Does race and a religion define a state? Is there a percentage of acceptable muslim blood, above which the state of Israel dissapears? Who defines it? You? Still no word aboutr the illegal occupied territories.

Then they were offered their own land, but time after time they rejected it. Simply because they have no industry and would not do anything with the land even if they could. All they wanted was for the technology the Jews had built and their land and the Jews gone. So they began to start blowing themselves up. And then started saying that this was the only way they could win.

They are offered idiotically small terrains, below the necessary for some sort of self sustainancy. I'd like to see the jews build that technology without the massive external aid they've received all these years, and I don't know why you doubt the palestinian capability of growth. Is it because they're genetically inferior?

As a result of their deep seated hate for the Jews there is no solution to this problem but to force them out to their Arab buddies who so happily use them to do their dirty work. You want to give them land? What the hell are they going to do with that land? They don’t know anything better then constant hate and warfare, and they don’t want to learn anything better.

Because they're inferior, right? They're perhaps subhuman. Come on, you want to say it!

Next after you give them land they’ll start demanding industry to survive and then more and more. It will never end. As a result of the world tying Israel’s hands behind its back this problem seems to have no end. Maybe we should wait till the Arabs gain a nuclear weapon to start trying to solve the problem? I guess we will the way things are going. But I simply will not stand for it.

What about you pressure the relevant powers to start treating the palestinians fairly, then? Things like not further occupying their land, letting them marry Israely citizens, not shooting all their infrastructures with tanks and planes?

That’s just my view. I’m sorry if you don’t agree with it. I simply feel that this is a correct and unbiased approach

.
About as unbiased as Bin Laden's view on the subject.

[Colonel Olrik]

I'm loathe to lock this ... curious ... first post up considering what fun could be had with it, but ... bloody hell I guess I must. There'll be other times on other topics to debate with our latest new comer- but not IVP.

Sorry, Vympel, but I'm not going to throw my post away. It was hard work, I tell you! I'll close the thread if this begins to escalate to a full grown IvP debate.

[Guest]

Thank you for your excellent opinions. However we each have our opinions and thus on such a topic I concede that debates should be left up to those with better understanding of political matters. I am saddened that you feel this way, however I shall not retort to your posts as there is no clear solution to such a problem in this current state. Again only time will tell.

[Colonel Olrik]

However we each have our opinions and thus on such a topic I concede that debates should be left up to those with better understanding of political matters.

In other words, you have lied about several easily known facts and are now trying to mask it by claiming to merely having a different opinion.

I am saddened that you feel this way, however I shall not retort to your posts as there is no clear solution to such a problem in this current state.

True, there is no clear way out of the problem, but the fact that people like you choose to be ridiculously onesided and desinformed doesn't help the situation either.

[Guest]

That was an interesting reply. Really I don't care. Feel free to continue berating my opinions. Time will tell.

[Joe]

That was an interesting reply. Really I don't care. Feel free to continue berating my opinions. Time will tell.

Are you going to actually reply to any of Olrik's rebuttals or are you just going to ridicule him?

[Ghost Rider]

That was an interesting reply. Really I don't care. Feel free to continue berating my opinions. Time will tell.

Okay...so you're not even going to TRY and defend your OPINIONS?

So you just spout of something because to what?

Take up bandwidth?

[Xenophobe3691]

Perfectly understanding the view of many people on the topic of the Middle East is quite difficult. That is quite understandable for many reasons. Many of these include misinformation, ignorance, or human greed for dominance, or simply the will to not care which ignorance is generally.

This is an understatement. Misinformation and propoganda surrounding this region is insane. Unless you've personally been there, I don't trust your opinion on this matter.

So, let us having got that out of the way, proceed to the next topic, of Israel’s occupation of the land given to it by the United Nations.

Israel currently occupies about double the amount of land handed over to it by the UN. The actions against the people of these occupied and annexed territories are what've become such a hot topic.

As a result when Hitler came to power and began to speak his never ending tirades of killing the Jews and how they were to blame for everything nothing new was happening. This is one of the key reasons that when he set up his concentration camps many Europeans were more then willing to help him get rid of the Jews. Meanwhile Americans simply maintained ignorance and did not care enough about the rest of the world at the time to do anything. For example when a boat load of Jewish immigrants tried to land in the United States pleading asylum from Hitler they were turned away because people simply could not believe that such atrocities were possible.

Not relevant to the discussion of Israel's treatment of Palestinians, but relevant to the question of Israel's purpose.

As a result of this several century long build up of hatred and ignorance Hitler was able to kill some 6 million Jews. When the dust settled and everyone realized of the atrocities that had occurred they suddenly felt sorry for the Jewish people. The Zionist campaign to recognize Israel as the Jewish homeland was once again restarted and Jews were finally granted a home by the same people who had merely a few hundred years ago annihilated the entire Jewish population of Jerusalem because they felt like it.

The biggest crock of bullshit I've ever seen. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 established the British intent of a creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The initial creation was to have been around the year 1940, unfortunately, World War II kicked in the ass the only chance Jews had of escaping Europe and arriving at a country that wanted them.

At the same time the current occupants of the land controlled I believe by the British were a groups referred to as the Palestinians. They were considered the outcasts of the Islamic world and thus no one really cared about them.

No, they were just considered country hicks, much like we consider poor Southerners living in Alabama or Mississippi today. Look up what Tel Aviv was before the Jews from Jaffa started buying up the land, and you'll see the pinnacle of development in that backwater.

However when the Arab world learned that the land that these Palestinians were currently squatting one was going to be turned over to the Jews they suddenly felt a long held hatred re-arise. They told the Palestinians that the new Jewish settlers were going to kill them all and the scared Palestinians ran away to little camps set up for them. The Jewish settlers tried to have them stay but they simply would not here of it, because of course they were going to get slaughtered, with UN troops near by, and even after being welcomed in.

And all those Palestinians who stayed are now Israeli Arabs, with full rights of citizenship. Plus, they aren't even conscripted at 18!

As a result the years went by and the Arabs realized that Israel was simply too strong military wise to take it down. So they began to tell the Palestinians lies about how this land was their land, about how the Jews forced them out, about how they would have of had the same great industry that Israel now has if they had not been kicked out, and etc. So began the onslaught of fighting.

Ahem, the Intifada started in 1987, around 40 years after the war of Independence...

When the Palestinians said that they wanted to be let back into Israel they were told that if they went back in they would greatly outnumber the small Jewish population. Simple had they not left when they did they would have been able to mix freely and no such problems would be encountered. However by now they so greatly outnumbered Jews that it was preposterous to think that Israel would remain Israel after they returned.

Yep, and one policy of Israel that I am personally horrified and disgusted at. I am all for the right to return, unfortunately, that's one Pandora's Box that's gonna be a bitch when opened.

Then they were offered their own land, but time after time they rejected it. Simply because they have no industry and would not do anything with the land even if they could. All they wanted was for the technology the Jews had built and their land and the Jews gone.

To all of those who say that this is just conceptualization, if you're ever in the Golan, take the ski lift to the top of Mt. Hernon, and look down at the Syrian/Israeli border. One side is vibrant green, the other is brown. I ask you to guess which is which.

So they began to start blowing themselves up.

Hardly. Islam does not smile on suicide. The first suicide bomber was condemned, before they started realizing that this was a good way of getting attention...

As a result of their deep seated hate for the Jews there is no solution to this problem but to force them out to their Arab buddies who so happily use them to do their dirty work.

One Arab leader did this. Guess what his name was? Saddam Hussein al-Tikriti.

You want to give them land? What the hell are they going to do with that land?

If the Israelis really want these people to do well, then they'd let them into their agricultural schools and teach them the miracles that they pull every day in the desert. If the Palestinians really want to do well, they'll accept.

They don’t know anything better then constant hate and warfare, and they don’t want to learn anything better.

You're generalizing. Most Palestinians (and Jordanians) I've met have been hideously nice and polite. Unfortunately, their leaders and kids shows are a bit...martial.

Next after you give them land they’ll start demanding industry to survive and then more and more.

Ahem, it took a 1 billion USD reparation payment from West Germany to finance Israel's industries. Please tell me how the Palestinians will pay for it.

It will never end.

Prove it.

As a result of the world tying Israel’s hands behind its back this problem seems to have no end. Maybe we should wait till the Arabs gain a nuclear weapon to start trying to solve the problem?

Too late, Israel's already got nukes, and it's not afraid to pursue a Scorched Earth/MAD policy for its own destruction. In a previous thread, it was mentioned that Jordan has the second most powerful military in the Middle East. Guess who has the first?

I guess we will the way things are going. But I simply will not stand for it.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to naivette.

That’s just my view. I’m sorry if you don’t agree with it. I simply feel that this is a correct and unbiased approach. Maybe I’m wrong, only time will tell.

Please answer

[Darth Wong]

Imperialist, you can't make claims and then refuse to discuss them. If your argument isn't strong enough to defend, and if you won't even try to address claims of dishonesty (including your clearly erroneous belief that Zionism was dormant until the Holocaust despite clear historical evidence to the contrary), then you shouldn't bother making it.

If all you can say is "that's your opinion, not mine", then you've said nothing at all. Around here, you're expected to back up what you say. And since you:

A) tried to re-open a subject that has been debated to death and placed on moratorium

B) refused to debate your claims or support them

C) failed to contribute anything remotely resembling new information on the subject

there is really no point to this thread.



PS. Ridiculous lines like "the scared little Palestinians ran away to little camps set up for them" do not support your claims of an unbiased approach.