Trek is dead! Long live Trek!

[Alyeska]

"Up yours!"
"No, up yours!"
"No, up yours!"

Gee, what an interesting discussion....

Its called screwing around and not taking things seriously. You ought to know that.

[Vympel]

LOL

I still have a disposition towards not swearing on forums ... most of the time

[Alyeska]

LOL

I still have a disposition towards not swearing on forums ... most of the time

Well, I usually do to. But with the "free flowing" comments I see from Mike, I guess I have kinda taken to flaming idiots who make stupid comments on things I post.

[Vympel]

In the words of Chopper Ried:

"What's the matter Alyeska? ICS got you down? Having a bit of a whinge?"

[Alyeska]

In the words of Chopper Ried:

"What's the matter Alyeska? ICS got you down? Having a bit of a whinge?"

Thats the exact sort of fucking dumbass statement that causes me to tear some shithead a new asshole.

[Vympel]

So much anger, so little substance

You must be calm ... at peace. Clear your mind of anti-ICS thoughts ... mmmmmm.

[Isolder74]

I think that pretty much sums it up

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Times like these remind me of a old saying:

"Just fucking deal with it."

[Alyeska]

So much anger, so little substance

You must be calm ... at peace. Clear your mind of anti-ICS thoughts ... mmmmmm.

Screw that, rage leads to the dark side, and evil is pretty damned cool.

[Valis]

It looks to me like the ST vs SW discussion is over, and Trek is dead, buried and mourned over. There only three types of trekkies left now:

1. The Troll: Doesn't give shit about evidence and only wants to argue. Spews crap.
2. The Newbie: Newcomer who snipes with ancient trekkie arguments which has been shot to pieces aeons ago.
3. The Intelligent Trekkie: Acknowledge that the Feds cannot possibly win a war with the Empire, but argue that the Feds can put up a better fight than we give them credit for.

What do you think? I like to debate, but there is no one left to debate with.

Well the Intelligent Trekkies can and sometimes DO come up with interesting scenarios which are interesting if only for academic discourse. Basically we know who would win in a full out war but there are tons of tiny little facets left to explore and debating can be fun with intelligent Trekkies around who can acknolwedge defeat and just want to argue little points.

There seems to be plenty of room left for new debates, or at the very least, more fanfic.

An all out war would scatter what little was left of the UFP population, seeding many new rebel groups, and many would assumably join the Rebellion proper. While the Romulans would probably disappear into their collective navels, the Klingons, with their "kill them all, Kahless will know his own" attitude, could present a long term annoyance to the Empire. And lest we not forget, the Borg, if given the chance to assimulate any Imperial technology, would defenitely give the Empire something to worry about. (heha, Borg Death Spheres or Super Cubes, anyone?)

On another note, I vaguely remember as a child hearing the statement that the SW universe was "their past, our future". (I spent many, many hours pondering that statement) Supposing this was true, the mother of all fanfics could be written, taking us from Federation days, through to later days when the Empire was all the rage. Human technology and culture in the Milky Way could be on par with (or at least within a magnitude or two) of the Empire. Fr'example, wasn't Dune set in our future, about the year 10K? oooo Dune vs StarWars...

See? The possilbilities are endless!

Oh, before anyone flames the above ST slant, I grew up a 'warsie'. I was too young to understand the socio-political stories of ST:TOS but could easily grasp the mythical foundation of SW. Haha I was a Jawa for several Halloweens - my geek dad wired me up a flashlight and some LED's on a headband, so I even had Jawa 'eyes'. My sister was Leia, complete with a yarn-based cinnamon bunn hairdo!

[Kuja]

cool....

[Vympel]

Screw that, rage leads to the dark side, and evil is pretty damned cool.

I'll concede that

[EmperorMing]

Yay EVIL!!

[Mr Bean]

And lest we not forget, the Borg, if given the chance to assimulate any Imperial technology, would defenitely give the Empire something to worry about. (heha, Borg Death Spheres or Super Cubes, anyone?)

The Borg are pretty much gone, Considered even a Neb-B Frigit can take cubes apart by the Dozen's per second....

Lemmme put it this way, I'll give you better odds that the Hamster people would have SW tech before the Borg do...

[Oddity]

There seems to be plenty of room left for new debates, or at the very least, more fanfic.

Hmmm... fanfics...!

[greenmm]

200GT? Did you pull that out of your ass, or the EU? Both are equally valid.

At least his ass would be more valid than your brain's gibberish...

[Evil Jerk]

An all out war would scatter what little was left of the UFP population, seeding many new rebel groups, and many would assumably join the Rebellion proper.

If the Empire attacked Trek, there'd be no Rebellion, plus I don't think they'd do much, the meek Federation citizenry would do as they're told just as they always have. The frontier colonists would not become a new Maquis either, because the Empire would either let them stay on their worthless planets or blow them up, either way no problems.

the Klingons, with their "kill them all, Kahless will know his own" attitude, could present a long term annoyance to the Empire.

Oh please. The Empire deals with crime cartels more powerful than them, they'd be a speck on the Imperial Windshield, especially with that attitude.
I'm just suprised how Klingons weren't smashed up by everyone else long ago.

And lest we not forget, the Borg, if given the chance to assimulate any Imperial technology, would defenitely give the Empire something to worry about. (heha, Borg Death Spheres or Super Cubes, anyone?)

They wouldn't have a chance, they can't deal with or assimilate anything truly different. The Borg assimilating Imperial tech and becoming uberfied simply wouldn't happen. Ever. Ever! EVER! EVEEEEEEEEER!!

oooo Dune vs StarWars...

*Death Star fires on Arrakis, entire Dune universe economy and power collapses*

Nah, not much fun.

[Kuja]

Gotta love that DS......

[Valis]

Agreed, 99% of Trek would be doomed if the Empire came knocking. But, there is still room for debates and such. Look at what a relative handful of Rebels accomplished in ANH. Even Vader himself underestimated how much ass a rag-tag group of renegades could kick. Looking at it on paper, most people would have said that the Rebels were fuct, but they still managed to knock out a Death Star or two!

I'm not familiar with the storylines of SW: 7, 8, & 9. It would be interesting to see how Lucas planned on bringing the Empire down.

[Evil Jerk]

Agreed, 99% of Trek would be doomed if the Empire came knocking. But, there is still room for debates and such. Look at what a relative handful of Rebels accomplished in ANH. Even Vader himself underestimated how much ass a rag-tag group of renegades could kick. Looking at it on paper, most people would have said that the Rebels were fuct, but they still managed to knock out a Death Star or two!

*Mumble mumble*Rebels..*mumble mumble* damn good guy clause*mumble mumble*

I'm not familiar with the storylines of SW: 7, 8, & 9. It would be interesting to see how Lucas planned on bringing the Empire down.

I've heard that he still planned to end it like RotJ ended (death of the Emperor, redemption of Vader, etc.) only it would've been drawn out longer. And Han Solo would've kicked the bucket.
I don't think Lucas ever made any plans beyond that.

[Valis]

Too, although one must be careful drawing analogies between human history and the Empire, our past is full of fallen 'undefeatable' empires.

Worshipped Ra lately?
Rendered unto Caeser what is his?
Taken a spot of tea like a good Englishman? (Well, the Brits aren't exactly gone, but the sun has most definitely set on the British Empire...)

[pellaeons_scion]

Well, this has been entertaining. As much as I love the awesome might of an ISD's weaponry, I had a thought.

At what point did warfare de-evolve into who has the biggest gun? Or who can put out the greatest amount of energy. Yes sheer firepower has its place, but what about tactics? Thrawn, possibly the greatest of the Empires commanders evidently understood this. Did he go into a battle thinking "Well, my guns are bigger therefore Ill win." Nope.

He studied his enemy ( Well their art anyway;) ) and somehow extrapolated the best way to defeat them. I think his best victory was over ( I forget the name of the planet). He placed cloaked ships inside a planets shielding and timed a turbolaser blast from an ISD with an instantaneous shot from the cloaked ships, making it appear that he had fired through their shields. Consequently seeing their defences apparently useless, they sued for peace.

Though energy output is important in a battle situation, its the APPLICATION what truly matters. If your targeting is slow, or your tracking systems or ECCW systems arnt up to scratch, then it isnt going to matter how many mega-giga-yotta whatever tons of energy your guns can put out if you cant hit the backside of a barn.

Technology is important, but its next to useless without trained personell. I think thats where the empire has the edge over ST. On one hand you have a Federation, bound by (insane) rules of warfare, whos ships are primarily designed for exploration and science, and with the Prime Directive which hampers a commanders initative.

On the other you have the Imperial Fleet. They arnt science ships, or exploration vessels. Their crews are not out to find new discoveries or races as their primary mission. Their most primary function is war and conquest. They have hundreds perhaps thousands of man-hours or experience through trial and error in combatting various enemies in all types and scales of warfare. They have crews that are forged in the hard truth of war, which is simply to win, defeat your enemy with whatever tools are at hand.

Imperial commanders understand the truth of war. To win you must lose, be it personell, ships, and materiel. They are willing to take those risks to ensure victory where a ST Commander may not. War is a dirty business, people die, sometimes in large numbers. Would the AQ be able to hold out against a vastly numerically superior and battle-hardened force? They might put up a good fight, but sheer attrition would bring them to their knees. In the scheme of things, the Empire is not going to care greatly if the ST fleet destroy1, 5 even 100 ISD's...its not even a drop in the ocean.

*Its three AM...Have you fed your Troll yet?*

[Master of Ossus]

Tactics are important, but only to a point. The fact of the matter is that there is just no way for SF to consistently muster enough firepower, even in very local areas, to defeat the Galactic Empire. They are strategically slower, less well armed, and underprotected.

Tactics did not allow the Native Americans to beat back the Americans or the European settlers when they first arrived. Tactics did not allow Black Beard and his pirates to outfight the British Navy. Tactics did not allow the German Army to beat the Soviets in World War II. The fact is that tactics are a force multiplier, but they are useless against the kind of odds that the Federation would be up against. The Empire has more ISD's than the UFP has runabouts. Their ships are better armed, protected, faster, and have better range and firepower. There is just no way that any tactic would allow the UFP to win that war, even if they could win a few small battles. And yes, much of the time war does come down to which side has better firepower. Look at the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. Look at the Battle of Jutland. Look at the attack on Pearl Harbor. Much of the time, firepower is what wins battles, and tactics (while undoubtedly helpful), cannot overcome the kind of mindboggling odds that the UFP would face during our fictitious war.

[pellaeons_scion]

So essentially warfare can be broken down into who has the biggest guns, and the most ships, troops etc.

I can understand that to a point, as its war by attritition. Im guessing your basically saying that in this kind of conflict tactics would not play as major a role as in real-world warfare. Maybe long term strategy has a better place.

[pellaeons_scion]

Hmm, maybe thats how the empire would prevail. Imperial doctrine seems to be based on attacking critical resource points, planets and manufacting facilities. Whereas its seems UFP is more concerned with destroying ships on a one on one basis.

Also numerical superiority seems to be key. He/She with the most ships wins....heh, works in most strategy games

If anyone has any clearer thoughts on Imperial doctorine I would be most willing to listen