Which UFp Starship Amenity would you remove?

[Tsyroc]

Sorry, I meant Enterprise-D is considered an Explorer.

[Typhonis 1]

Also replicators alleviate the need for a laundry on the ship. Non food reps could be put in crew quarters,you also want a food rep for sickbay specially for contaigous crrew in quarantine

[Doomriser]

(The Ent-nil had the same crew as the E-D)

WRONG.

E-nil had 450 crew, the E-D has about 1,500+

Whatever. The point is that 'they sure packed 'em [the crew] in back then', paraphrased from Dax [IIRC]. In the episode where some of the DS9 cast travels back in to Kirk's era on station K-7, she acknowledges that crews were packed in more tighly in Kirk's era. And where do you get 1,500+ crew from?

[David]

Actually, I say keep the amenities. I'd sure want them if I had to spend all my off time waiting in line with a thousand other people to use the one restroom.

[oberon]

Things to get rid of:

Luxury quarters, as has been stated over and over (Only the CO should get a luxury cabin/office, the XO a smaller one, and officers get 2-man staterooms and private showers. The rest of the crew get open-bay berthing, and common-area heads with shower stalls).

That god-damn wall-to-wall carpeting.

Anything that requires an active system: force-field brigs, warp-core releases, anything with a requirement for a safety interlock that requires power to work. This includes, but is not limited to, the holodeck and turbolifts. And doors. Use doors that can be dogged down against an atmosphere failure. Use stairs that can be defended and used in the event of a power disruption. Use automatic firefighting flooding in engineering spaces, but make it possible to fight fires in a conventional manner. Use sound-powered phones to keep communications going throughout the ship. Use a main circuit (PA system) instead of comm badges.

The god-damn central computer.

Hidden plumbing and Jeffries tubes, to be replaced by regular cable trunks, exposed pipes and valves, access panels and boxes, and real escape trunks.

Magic tools. Use low-pressure and high-pressure compressed air and electricity.

Transporters. Use a shuttle, for land's sake.

Phasers. Use bullets.

Tricorders. Use explosimeters and dedicated sensing equipment to get readings on motion, vapors, radiation, etc.

"Automated surgery". Use a real GP and surgeon who knows to train his gang in CPR.

Magic shields. Design ships for the threat and make them work.

A few things to add, just real quick-like:

Repair lockers with firefighting and damage control gear and ensembles/proximity suits, welding machines, lifesaving equipment, desmokers, hull patches, pumps, and all that jazz, coordinated with a damage control central station (not the bridge, they're busy). Add a DCC2 for large ships.

Chainfalls, overhead railings and block and tackle, to haul heavy shit up and down and back and forth.

Machine and parts shops.

A library and a few stores: a uniform/duty free store (don't tell me we'll have interstellar trade without duty-free--if we do it with Canada, we'll do it with another planet); a candy and snack shop; a drug store; a printing press which prints a structured Plan of the Day (which goes hand-in-hand with muster and inspection) and a ship newsletter, bumper stickers, logo t-shirts and tourist paraphernalia; an art studio (hey, they are in space, and you need to get this crew involved with each other somehow--if not an art studio, then something else to help people kick out the jams); a weight room and boxing gym.

Leadership that is interested enough building camaraderie and esprit de corps that they won't simply let the crew go off to rot in a holodeck--getting rid of that god-damn holodeck is the first step. The next step is having officers who care enough about what they learned in college or anywhere else, and that care enough about their men, that they would be willing to share it; so you'd have volunteers to teach wrestling (a good resource would be the real security detachment I'd add, this dovetails with using officers properly instead of as nameless cannon-fodder ensigns), fencing, or whatever.

Another thing to add is self-improvement courses, and by that I definitely do not mean some touchy-feely new-age candle-making bullshit sponsored by some Betazoidian peeping tom. I mean, you have a shitload of ship systems, and regular joes should be able to learn them all for a pin, for official recognition. IRL, this is known as ESWS, Enlisted Surface Warfare Specialist, and adds to your competence and aids you in your work and in promotions. You want men and women who can handle themselves in any situation, in any part of the ship. You do not need a holodeck.

To the uniform, I'd add ribbons. People like recognition, and things that add to your record are good.

Run everything like it's an alarm. This is the best practice. If you have to shut a power-plant down, shut it down like it's an emergency. When you start it up, start it up like it's an emergency. I don't mean all willy-nilly, either, I mean, stick to a SOP and follow a plan, and get ready to jam, safely and quickly. When the day comes that you have to eject the warp core, you'll have plenty of practice and won't need to rely on an active safety interlock. If you sense a contact, treat it as a potential threat. If something fires on you or refuses to chit-chat on the radio, make tracks and prepare to fight your way clear. It's very simple, drill, drill, drill. Have fire drills twice a day. Test your bells, alarms, and main circuit several times a day. Have a security alert once a day. Have a battle drill for most of every day. You get the idea. Work hard, bust your ass to make it through the day, and see you in port.

[Doomriser]

The Ent-nil is about the size of Voyager. IIRC, Voyager runs on 150 crew. The Ent-nil had over 400.

[Typhonis 1]

The Enterprise Nil was also a heavy combatant for its time and the Captaibns quarters were the size of a Next generations Ensigns.yes its friom the TM I`m sorry but it is true

[Patrick Degan]

The first USS Enterprise had a total crew of 430 officers and ratings.

According to the episode "Remember Me", the Enterprise-D had a crew of 1013. This number seemed to include all the people on board, including civilians and children. From this, we can infer that half to two-thirds of the Enterprise personnel were passengers. Likely a Galaxy-class starship could run with a crew complement of about 80% of Kirk's roster without imparing the efficency of the ship.

[tharkûn]

That god-damn wall-to-wall carpeting.

This is a good thing if it is resistant to wear and does not need frequent maintenance. In the middle of battle you want plenty of traction (especially if the ship is shaking violently). It also is nice if you have a fluid leak or some gold shirt spills their guts on the floor. Diamond plate, grates, etc. are other options, but I'd prefer something with more padding. I want my damage control teams fixing the ship ... not going to sickbay because they fell against hard metal when we took a hit.

Use doors that can be dogged down against an atmosphere failure.
Gravity is whatever direction you want it to be. When the systems go down you are in nullo.

Use stairs that can be defended and used in the event of a power disruption.
Better still use ladders. Which are far more space efficient and far easier to defend. If you need to move up/down fast ... kill the gravity.

Use automatic firefighting flooding in engineering spaces, but make it possible to fight fires in a conventional manner.
You want it automatic only in the case of something major. It's okay to work in a burning room, provided its being taken care of by somebody else. You do not want to flood the engine room for every small fire.

Use sound-powered phones to keep communications going throughout the ship.
Use some electrical lines with chemical batteries (or fiber optic). You want it small and you want it to be locally powered.

Use a main circuit (PA system) instead of comm badges.
With proper discipline the combadge can perform every function a PA does ... without the limitations.

Magic tools. Use low-pressure and high-pressure compressed air and electricity.
You likely need some magic tools. Compressed air has its own problems (such as where does the waste go in an enclosed ship if you are having problems with compressors?). What you really need are *mechanical* tools. Yes honest to God screws, nuts, bolts, etc. and screw drivers, wrenches, hammers, etc. Compressed air lines can blow, electricity can short circuit few nonlocal problems can screw an old fashioned bolt.

Transporters. Use a shuttle, for land's sake.
Shuttles take far longer for large transfers, cannot be used to extract people from otherwise inacessible locations (i.e. in a closed container in space with no airlock) or say a hostile vessel ... here's a novel idea ... USE BOTH.

Phasers. Use bullets.
Bullets + dead of space = bad. You need strong enough bullets to pierce the armor of any intruders, this likely means you stand a chance of going through windows, etc. If you go for the heavy and slow modle, this is not a huge concern ... if you make the hull thin and light (for better maneveurability) you may run into serious trouble.

Chainfalls, overhead railings and block and tackle, to haul heavy shit up and down and back and forth.

Useless. If everything breaks you end up in nullo ... in zero g weight is immaterial (mass still sucks though).


Machine and parts shops.
may be cheaper to use replicators (may not).

A library and a few stores: a uniform/duty free store (don't tell me we'll have interstellar trade without duty-free--if we do it with Canada, we'll do it with another planet); a candy and snack shop; a drug store;
Assuming the feddies ever "reinvent" money.

a printing press which prints a structured Plan of the Day (which goes hand-in-hand with muster and inspection)
computers are ubiqioutious. Do it digital. If the computer system is down ... then the Plan of the day is already useless.

Leadership that is interested enough building camaraderie and esprit de corps that they won't simply let the crew go off to rot in a holodeck--getting rid of that god-damn holodeck is the first step.
The holodec has potential ... what you need to do is *restrict* its use so people have only a few hours a week to blow in it. It also works well for training purposes.

Run everything like it's an alarm. This is the best practice.
Yes and no. Practice makes perfect, but familiarity breeds comtempt. If you always set off all the alarms then they lose some of their heads up function. If you keep having alarms people start to treat it as mundane and don't take proper care. The best method is normally a mix of alarm type settings and regular activities. Keep up the practice ... but don't make it a boring routine.

When you start it up, start it up like it's an emergency. I don't mean all willy-nilly, either, I mean, stick to a SOP and follow a plan, and get ready to jam, safely and quickly.
This is not always possible. There is a reason real militaries use simulators ... some things are too dangerous to do live. I.e. you have an SOP for accidentily armed ordinance (i.e. the loader at a torp tube accidently sets the timer off on a torpedo) ... you had BETTER have an SOP for defusing live ordinance ... however it is also damn dangerous ... can't do it regularly before statistics catch up. This is why the holodec is nice ... it creates a realistic illusion of reality but does not actually kill people if they screw the test (at least with working safeties).

Have fire drills twice a day. Test your bells, alarms, and main circuit several times a day.
Familiarity breeds cotempt. If you make alarms routine people start to slack off during them. Its much better to follow a varied schedule.

[CmdrWilkens]

That god-damn wall-to-wall carpeting.

This is a good thing if it is resistant to wear and does not need frequent maintenance. In the middle of battle you want plenty of traction (especially if the ship is shaking violently). It also is nice if you have a fluid leak or some gold shirt spills their guts on the floor. Diamond plate, grates, etc. are other options, but I'd prefer something with more padding. I want my damage control teams fixing the ship ... not going to sickbay because they fell against hard metal when we took a hit.

That's just foolish. You want tile so you can see where leaks are going and for ease of cleanliness. Do you knwo how bad it is to have carpet if someone atempts to introduce a Bioogical or Chemical agent? Also the amount of padding provided by a piece of carpet is going to be minimal since you still have to have raw deck underneath it and every bit of padding you add is more unneccessary weight and cleaning restrictions. What you don't need to do on a combat starship is spend time vaccumign when a quick swab and you're done is faster and just as good. Moreso carpet is MUCH more flammable than metal and fire is the last thing you want on a ship either at sea or in space.

Use doors that can be dogged down against an atmosphere failure.
Gravity is whatever direction you want it to be. When the systems go down you are in nullo.

Use stairs that can be defended and used in the event of a power disruption.
Better still use ladders. Which are far more space efficient and far easier to defend. If you need to move up/down fast ... kill the gravity.

Good idea with bad idea. Good idea to have ladders (or very vertical stairs) but kep gravity on as the human body does nto funciton as efficiaently in a zero G environment.


Use automatic firefighting flooding in engineering spaces, but make it possible to fight fires in a conventional manner.
You want it automatic only in the case of something major. It's okay to work in a burning room, provided its being taken care of by somebody else. You do not want to flood the engine room for every small fire.[/quote]

I disagree, so long as the chemical won't harm the equipment then you're better safe than sorry, especially in the middle of nowhere.

Use sound-powered phones to keep communications going throughout the ship.
Use some electrical lines with chemical batteries (or fiber optic). You want it small and you want it to be locally powered.

All of these rely on the chain of command not breaking down which, if you have to resort to sound-powered phones, it has.

Use a main circuit (PA system) instead of comm badges.
With proper discipline the combadge can perform every function a PA does ... without the limitations.

Magic tools. Use low-pressure and high-pressure compressed air and electricity.
You likely need some magic tools. Compressed air has its own problems (such as where does the waste go in an enclosed ship if you are having problems with compressors?). What you really need are *mechanical* tools. Yes honest to God screws, nuts, bolts, etc. and screw drivers, wrenches, hammers, etc. Compressed air lines can blow, electricity can short circuit few nonlocal problems can screw an old fashioned bolt. [.quote]

Yes theere are ptotential problems with compressed air tools HOWEVEr they are generally faster, easier, require less strength AND if well maintained will not end up useless on the sidelight.

Phasers. Use bullets.
Bullets + dead of space = bad. You need strong enough bullets to pierce the armor of any intruders, this likely means you stand a chance of going through windows, etc. If you go for the heavy and slow modle, this is not a huge concern ... if you make the hull thin and light (for better maneveurability) you may run into serious trouble.

None worse than farting with the SIF down which Voyager showed would tear a vessel apart.

Chainfalls, overhead railings and block and tackle, to haul heavy shit up and down and back and forth.

Useless. If everything breaks you end up in nullo ... in zero g weight is immaterial (mass still sucks though).

However chain guides and overhead railing make the job easier by providing a guide.

Machine and parts shops.
may be cheaper to use replicators (may not).

With the errors they spit out for food I wouldn't touch a highly machined piece so randomly.

[tharkûn]

That's just foolish. You want tile so you can see where leaks are going and for ease of cleanliness. Do you knwo how bad it is to have carpet if someone atempts to introduce a Bioogical or Chemical agent?
Burn it off. I deal with bioagents on a daily basis. Most of em a good can of bleach will kill. For those bugger who survive ... nothing water based lasts in hot flame and if you are really annoyed toss down some super -acid (may scorch the deck plating). Unlike modern ships, ST ships pitch hideously you *need* something with high coefficients of friction otherwise you are going to break your arm/neck when you lose your footing (note something else to add ... railings or hand holds). I'm amazed that *no one* in ST dies from a busted skull when the ship rocks and they whack their head against the bulkhead. Padding is a good thing, hell in the event battle anyone walking *anywhere* should be wearing a padded helmet. I don't think even Iowa's pitched that bad.

Also the amount of padding provided by a piece of carpet is going to be minimal since you still have to have raw deck underneath it and every bit of padding you add is more unneccessary weight and cleaning restrictions. What you don't need to do on a combat starship is spend time vaccumign when a quick swab and you're done is faster and just as good. Moreso carpet is MUCH more flammable than metal and fire is the last thing you want on a ship either at sea or in space.

All padding gives you is deceleration room. Even 1 cm more room to decelerate can be the difference between breaking your wrist and not. Padding is light weight, hell you could use your air reserves. Flames actually rather useless in space ... you just starve the fire of oxygen.
The real question on carpeting is how much upkeep does it require?

Good idea with bad idea. Good idea to have ladders (or very vertical stairs) but kep gravity on as the human body does nto funciton as efficiaently in a zero G environment.
I'm talking about killing gravity in extroidinary circumstances (i.e. you *need* security troops 10 decks up and the turbo lifts are gone). NOT as SOP.

I disagree, so long as the chemical won't harm the equipment then you're better safe than sorry, especially in the middle of nowhere.
Egineers, presumably, need to DO something in egineering. If they can't see, they can't work. For small crud I'd go with a fire extinguisher. For major stuff I'd dump something like modern foam (steam in an eclosed environment is a real bitch).

Yes theere are ptotential problems with compressed air tools HOWEVEr they are generally faster, easier, require less strength AND if well maintained will not end up useless on the sidelight.
I have nothing against compressed air, however in battle I want tools that are reliable and that are safe when we start taking damage. Being trapped in an enclosed space when a pressure line goes is not my idea of a good time. When all else fails; duct tape, wire, pliers, and a a big hammer go a long ways.


None worse than farting with the SIF down which Voyager showed would tear a vessel apart.
I'm trying to be realistic. I'd prefer to have something with a good EM stun (if its armor penetrating) than something which can let all the air out.

However chain guides and overhead railing make the job easier by providing a guide.
They also provide for things to hang your personal on when they get tossed around like rag dolls. You control gravity. Cut some grooves into the wall and use that as your guide.

With the errors they spit out for food I wouldn't touch a highly machined piece so randomly.
Hmm? What exactly are you referring to? I don't know on this one. If they have very reliable atom by atom techniques they would put most machine shops to shame. If its error prone ... screw it go with what works.

[CmdrWilkens]

That's just foolish. You want tile so you can see where leaks are going and for ease of cleanliness. Do you knwo how bad it is to have carpet if someone atempts to introduce a Bioogical or Chemical agent?
Burn it off. I deal with bioagents on a daily basis. Most of em a good can of bleach will kill. For those bugger who survive ... nothing water based lasts in hot flame and if you are really annoyed toss down some super -acid (may scorch the deck plating). Unlike modern ships, ST ships pitch hideously you *need* something with high coefficients of friction otherwise you are going to break your arm/neck when you lose your footing (note something else to add ... railings or hand holds). I'm amazed that *no one* in ST dies from a busted skull when the ship rocks and they whack their head against the bulkhead. Padding is a good thing, hell in the event battle anyone walking *anywhere* should be wearing a padded helmet. I don't think even Iowa's pitched that bad.

Again problems here:
1) If you are going to burn it that just returns us back to our original problem of fir in a space ship which is a BAD thing.
2) You can easily achieve good COF which rubberized overcoats, you know kinda like what the USN uses to increase friction and reduce noise.
3) Padding, and your interaction with types like carpet, builds up TREMEMNDOU static electric charges which is a BAD thing to have around sensitive electronic instruments.

Also the amount of padding provided by a piece of carpet is going to be minimal since you still have to have raw deck underneath it and every bit of padding you add is more unneccessary weight and cleaning restrictions. What you don't need to do on a combat starship is spend time vaccumign when a quick swab and you're done is faster and just as good. Moreso carpet is MUCH more flammable than metal and fire is the last thing you want on a ship either at sea or in space.

All padding gives you is deceleration room. Even 1 cm more room to decelerate can be the difference between breaking your wrist and not. Padding is light weight, hell you could use your air reserves. Flames actually rather useless in space ... you just starve the fire of oxygen.
The real question on carpeting is how much upkeep does it require?

1) Padding is bulk you don't need to carry period, its excessive
2) The best defense against impacts from rocking lies in several pieces
a) Your own reaciton speed, amazingly you can "break fall"
b) Not losign balance in the first place (see also rails and rubber gripping)
3) As to fires starving it of oxygen means you ahve to let the compartment vent to space which means you've lost all that oxygen and will have to replenish what you'd lost from stores aboard...you can only carry so much.

Good idea with bad idea. Good idea to have ladders (or very vertical stairs) but kep gravity on as the human body does not funciton as efficiently in a zero G environment.
I'm talking about killing gravity in extroidinary circumstances (i.e. you *need* security troops 10 decks up and the turbo lifts are gone). NOT as SOP.

You'd eb ebtter off with transporters over that distance but asusmign they aren't available too then just have more security, any distance more than a deck or half the length of the ship is too great a distance period.

I disagree, so long as the chemical won't harm the equipment then you're better safe than sorry, especially in the middle of nowhere.
Egineers, presumably, need to DO something in egineering. If they can't see, they can't work. For small crud I'd go with a fire extinguisher. For major stuff I'd dump something like modern foam (steam in an eclosed environment is a real bitch).

AS I've been trained to deal with fires as part of my Fuel specialist training let me tell you that around elecronic equipment Halon is the ONLY way to go. A fire extinguisher or AFFF (Aqueous Film Formin Foam) is HORRIBLE and IDIOTIC for fires near electronic equipment.

For the engineers if they can't function basd on readouts and their sensors then they must spend all their time just looking at the core which does no godd, they shouldn't be in engineering. Engineers function based upon readouts provided by sensors, that doesn't change if you can't see the object in question. Does anyone think that just because engineers aboard a nuclear ship don't spend half their day staring at the physical core itself they can't do their job?

Yes theere are ptotential problems with compressed air tools HOWEVER they are generally faster, easier, require less strength AND if well maintained will not end up useless on the sidelight.
I have nothing against compressed air, however in battle I want tools that are reliable and that are safe when we start taking damage. Being trapped in an enclosed space when a pressure line goes is not my idea of a good time. When all else fails; duct tape, wire, pliers, and a a big hammer go a long ways.

Compressed air is a handy and robust enough technology that I'd like to have it as my go to source with manual equipment as backup.

None worse than farting with the SIF down which Voyager showed would tear a vessel apart.
I'm trying to be realistic. I'd prefer to have something with a good EM stun (if its armor penetrating) than something which can let all the air out.

Then use a taser.

However chain guides and overhead railing make the job easier by providing a guide.
They also provide for things to hang your personal on when they get tossed around like rag dolls. You control gravity. Cut some grooves into the wall and use that as your guide.

Which amounts to the same thing as I just suggested.

With the errors they spit out for food I wouldn't touch a highly machined piece so randomly.
Hmm? What exactly are you referring to? I don't know on this one. If they have very reliable atom by atom techniques they would put most machine shops to shame. If its error prone ... screw it go with what works.

Food contains "single bit errors." Now that's food which is just lumped together organics rather than precision measured machinery. Also the continued inadequacy of the replicators to perfomr simple molecular replications (e.g. Romulan ribosomes) indicates there are some problems we aren;t fully aware of. In other words the replicator has been unable to do the job on enough occasions that I prefer an old fashion tool shop with a computer controlled lathe.

[Iceberg]

Holodecks go, FIRST. They're utterly useless - if you have to drill men, do so at their stations, on duty, like real navies do. Take the two biggest holodecks and turn them into crew lounges. Take the rest of them and turn them into mess halls.

Second go the oversized quarters. Bunk up two men to a room and give 'em dormitory-sized rooms. Since we now have a crapload of extra room from offloading all the families and stuff, put in galleys, mess halls, wet and dry stores, a library, shops (duty-free, snack shop, barber, dentist, etc.) and more crew lounges. The crew lounges should have snack machines, arcade games (both video and pinball), reading areas well-stocked with magazines and "light" casual-reading books (i.e. not fucking Shakespeare), e-mail terminals and maybe a replicator in each room.

The crew lounges should be the ONLY places in the entire ship where there are publicly-accessible replicators. All other replicators should be reserved for industrial use only. And while we're at it, only have a limited menu available normally for crewmen to access. If they can figure out how to program/hack the replicators to get the food they really want, good for them. It encourages familiarity with the hardware, and I'm all for that.

Oh yeah. No carpet in any of the public areas, and neutral tone (brown or grey) industrial-grade carpet in quarters.

With all the power requirements for replicators and holodecks gone, we're free to mount some more powerful weapons and a real torpedo array instead of the piddly-ass one- and two-tube things we see on normal Fed starships...

[tharkûn]

1) If you are going to burn it that just returns us back to our original problem of fir in a space ship which is a BAD thing.
Fire in space takes your organics and makes CO2, H20, and NO2/SO2 in low amounts, assuming complete combustion. The CO2 ... just vent it through whatever scrubs your oxygen anyways Don't vent the place into space ... seal of the area and reverse the flow of air out of there.

2) You can easily achieve good COF which rubberized overcoats, you know kinda like what the USN uses to increase friction and reduce noise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't these also burn?

3) Padding, and your interaction with types like carpet, builds up TREMEMNDOU static electric charges which is a BAD thing to have around sensitive electronic instruments.
I've never noticed that, are electronics (especially hardened, gallium based ones) that sensitive?

1) Padding is bulk you don't need to carry period, its excessive

Tell that to the guy who doesn't crack open his skull.

2) The best defense against impacts from rocking lies in several pieces
a) Your own reaciton speed, amazingly you can "break fall"
Which tends to lead to broken wrists.

b) Not losign balance in the first place (see also rails and rubber gripping)
Like I mention earlier ... something to hold onto = good thing.

3) As to fires starving it of oxygen means you ahve to let the compartment vent to space which means you've lost all that oxygen and will have to replenish what you'd lost from stores aboard...you can only carry so much.

Balderdash. Seal the area, reverse the flow on the air circulation. Vent some spare N2 or CO2 into the room and then vent out. No net oxygen loss ... all you have to do is run the scrubbers longer/harder.

You'd eb ebtter off with transporters over that distance but asusmign they aren't available too then just have more security, any distance more than a deck or half the length of the ship is too great a distance period.

Why wouldn't you train security for combat in nullo? All you have to is stand at the bottom of the shaft, jump, let your mometum carry you up, and then grab hold of something at the top. Remember I'm talking about localized gravity ... turn it off in that spot only.

AS I've been trained to deal with fires as part of my Fuel specialist training let me tell you that around elecronic equipment Halon is the ONLY way to go. A fire extinguisher or AFFF (Aqueous Film Formin Foam) is HORRIBLE and IDIOTIC for fires near electronic equipment.

Isn't Halon toxic? If you let loose with this stuff would that force the Egineering crew to get the hell out?

For the engineers if they can't function basd on readouts and their sensors then they must spend all their time just looking at the core which does no godd, they shouldn't be in engineering. Engineers function based upon readouts provided by sensors, that doesn't change if you can't see the object in question. Does anyone think that just because engineers aboard a nuclear ship don't spend half their day staring at the physical core itself they can't do their job?
Currently all those readouts are damn close to the core. Further in ST egineers repair damage ... which presumably means working close to the core itself.

Compressed air is a handy and robust enough technology that I'd like to have it as my go to source with manual equipment as backup.
I'd have to go electrical. More portable, fewer bad things that can happen. The real limiting factor is the motor (if I recall). Given the level of power we are running the energy cost is minimal.

Then use a taser.
So long as it pierces armor ... its a good idea.

Which amounts to the same thing as I just suggested.
It's a good deal less than what I initially replied to. There is no need for block and tackle in nullo that I can see.

Holodecks go, FIRST. They're utterly useless - if you have to drill men, do so at their stations, on duty, like real navies do. Take the two biggest holodecks and turn them into crew lounges. Take the rest of them and turn them into mess halls.
Do you have any idea how much cash militaries but into VR simulators to do proper training? Drilling men at their station is fine, but its also limited. You can't fake major explosions. You can't a near to exact replica of a fission plant about to overload. Real militaries would KILL to get their hands on something like the holodec.

With all the power requirements for replicators and holodecks gone, we're free to mount some more powerful weapons and a real torpedo array instead of the piddly-ass one- and two-tube things we see on normal Fed starships...
Personally I've always thought they aught to have torps they can mount externally ... have the ability to launch several dozen at time. Yes I know if you get hit you are screwed ... the point is to not get hit and waste the enemy in the opening volley.

[Isolder74]

Holodeck could be usefull it they
1: Use is limited unlike now in which case the ship's crew ends up obseesed with how the next chapter of some holonovel will end up instead of the work they are suppost to be doing

2: If it's computer system is seperate from the rest of the ship's systems. The very idead that someone can take over the ship from the holodeck is stupid.

3: If it has safeties that accually work instead of the moronic system it has now in that a holodeck program or glich can disable them.

4: Some sort of deadman's switch that can turn it off from outside of the Holodeck.

[The Yosemite Bear]

My god!, Admirial Colinoff how did you manage to increase the power and the efficiency of the ship by so much.....

Bunks, Messhalls, removed the science stations, etc.

But how did you increase the power of our Torps...

Naquada enhanced Nukes baby.

[Iceberg]

Holodecks go, FIRST. They're utterly useless - if you have to drill men, do so at their stations, on duty, like real navies do. Take the two biggest holodecks and turn them into crew lounges. Take the rest of them and turn them into mess halls.
Do you have any idea how much cash militaries but into VR simulators to do proper training? Drilling men at their station is fine, but its also limited. You can't fake major explosions. You can't a near to exact replica of a fission plant about to overload. Real militaries would KILL to get their hands on something like the holodec.

The tradeoffs involved in the holodecks (social isolation of crew members, physical danger, extreme power draw) are too great for the benefits.

With all the power requirements for replicators and holodecks gone, we're free to mount some more powerful weapons and a real torpedo array instead of the piddly-ass one- and two-tube things we see on normal Fed starships...
Personally I've always thought they aught to have torps they can mount externally ... have the ability to launch several dozen at time. Yes I know if you get hit you are screwed ... the point is to not get hit and waste the enemy in the opening volley.

Forget that - mount them in Soviet-style VLS arrays, or else mount fusion warheads in US-style VLS arrays. Less vulnerability - more bang.

[Iceberg]

As an added bonus, I would introduce something called ARMOR to Federation starships - this armor having layers of ablative ceramic (to defeat energy weapons), steel (orNFE) plate (to strip armor-piercing caps off of incoming projectiles), void space (for splinter control and to defeat explosives), liquid-filled space (for anything that the previous layers didn't stop, more ceramic, more steel, more void, more liquid... for at least three more iterations.

[tharkûn]

The tradeoffs involved in the holodecks (social isolation of crew members, physical danger, extreme power draw) are too great for the benefits.
First off we've seen what two characters who end socially isolated? How many times have seen people go play at the holodec togethor? Social isolation is only a problem if you already have comraderie problems and if people can blow vast amounts of time in there. Limiting it to 1 hour a week as has been suggested several times would eliminate most of these problems.

Physical danger is a huge concern, however they actually had working safeties (like again everyone has stated) then this is moot. Power draw should not be a problem because you maintain excess power when it would be in use (namely normal alert when you are just cruising). The virtual whore, the ability to quickly make training mock-ups, and the ability to have better training sims ... its worth expending energy while you are en route. So long as it has a real big easy circuit breaker you are fine.

Forget that - mount them in Soviet-style VLS arrays, or else mount fusion warheads in US-style VLS arrays. Less vulnerability - more bang.
whichever. The point is you want a ship that can come in, fire, kill an enemy ship(s), and run away. One shot kills with fast ships are your best bet. You shouldn't need internal launchers.

[Doomriser]

Maybe the reason that the E-D was outfitted with plasma circuity on the bridge consoles, you know, the kind that exploded during combat, was because of all the carpeting on the ship. Static might have been a problem for electric circuitry. Does the E-E have extensive carpeting, because the Sovereign-class seems to have switched back to electricity, IIRC.

[Iceberg]

Forget that - mount them in Soviet-style VLS arrays, or else mount fusion warheads in US-style VLS arrays. Less vulnerability - more bang.
whichever. The point is you want a ship that can come in, fire, kill an enemy ship(s), and run away. One shot kills with fast ships are your best bet. You shouldn't need internal launchers.

They seem to need the mass-driver launchers to get the torpedoes "out the door" so to speak. Externally mounted torpedoes would have less initial acceleration, longer flight times, higher probability of intercept, etc.

Only fighters externally mount missiles (and not even all fighters - the F-102/106 did and the F-22 does mount missiles in internal bays) - warships mount missiles internally because they have the space to do so and because doing so allows them to protect the missiles prior to launch, and carry more of them than they otherwise could. Mounting missiles externally on a large warship makes no sense.

[tharkûn]

They seem to need the mass-driver launchers to get the torpedoes "out the door" so to speak. Externally mounted torpedoes would have less initial acceleration, longer flight times, higher probability of intercept, etc.
There would also be *alot* more of them in a volley. Besides which you can up the acceleration in place and have them coming off with equivalent acceleceration ... start the burn before releasing them.


Only fighters externally mount missiles (and not even all fighters - the F-102/106 did and the F-22 does mount missiles in internal bays) - warships mount missiles internally because they have the space to do so and because doing so allows them to protect the missiles prior to launch, and carry more of them than they otherwise could. Mounting missiles externally on a large warship makes no sense.
Yes but in ST it the enemy survives the volley. Modern ships can survive volley's ... and hence they work in bigass groups (the carrier group being the epitomy of this). In ST you send lots of ships out alone and they have the choices of stand and fight (and be killed) against a larger enemy ... or running away while inflicting minimal casualties. The idea is to up the number of shots in a volley so that your first shot kills.

[Iceberg]

They seem to need the mass-driver launchers to get the torpedoes "out the door" so to speak. Externally mounted torpedoes would have less initial acceleration, longer flight times, higher probability of intercept, etc.
There would also be *alot* more of them in a volley. Besides which you can up the acceleration in place and have them coming off with equivalent acceleceration ... start the burn before releasing them.

Never mind that externally carried missiles will have to be some warhead other than antimatter because of the inherent danger (dare I say rampant stupidity?) of carrying a brace of fully-armed matter-antimatter warheads on your hull.

Wait. This is Starfleet we're talking about. Of COURSE they'd carry a massive number of powerful and ludicrously unstable warheads on their outer hulls where any enemy with a brain could shoot at them. WHAT WAS I THINKING???

[oberon]

1) If you are going to burn it that just returns us back to our original problem of fir in a space ship which is a BAD thing.
Fire in space takes your organics and makes CO2, H20, and NO2/SO2 in low amounts, assuming complete combustion. The CO2 ... just vent it through whatever scrubs your oxygen anyways Don't vent the place into space ... seal of the area and reverse the flow of air out of there.

What if you can't access the compartment checklist (oh wait, Starfleet doesn't use those) and you don't know what's in the space that's on fire? What if combustion isn't complete? What if opening the compartment to the vacuum of space would be bad? Having a system that is designed to disrupt the vacuum-tight integrity of the ship is bad. What if that part has been so damaged by heat and smoke that it won't go back to its original state, or work at all?

3) Padding, and your interaction with types like carpet, builds up TREMEMNDOU static electric charges which is a BAD thing to have around sensitive electronic instruments.
I've never noticed that, are electronics (especially hardened, gallium based ones) that sensitive?

Who cares? Carpet is high-maintenance. If you need to measure the difference between a sprained wrist and a broken one, then you probably aren't hurt. In either event, that's a visit to medical.

1) Padding is bulk you don't need to carry period, its excessive

Tell that to the guy who doesn't crack open his skull.

Earlier you said "I'm not sure that even Iowas pitch that much". Are you not aware that the Iowas are not exactly known for how much they pitch? Try traveling on a Fox frigate or a CG cutter for a while and tell me how much they don't pitch. You also mentioned burning off carpet, or bleaching it. So, when you have something unknown in the carpet, you would introduce a harsh chemical or a fire. Great.

2) The best defense against impacts from rocking lies in several pieces
a) Your own reaciton speed, amazingly you can "break fall"
Which tends to lead to broken wrists.

b) Not losign balance in the first place (see also rails and rubber gripping)
Like I mention earlier ... something to hold onto = good thing.

Which is why we see all those smooth bulkheads in Star Trek! Ships are harsh, industrial places to work.

3) As to fires starving it of oxygen means you ahve to let the compartment vent to space which means you've lost all that oxygen and will have to replenish what you'd lost from stores aboard...you can only carry so much.

Balderdash. Seal the area, reverse the flow on the air circulation. Vent some spare N2 or CO2 into the room and then vent out. No net oxygen loss ... all you have to do is run the scrubbers longer/harder.

Too much complexity. Just fight the fucking fire and desmoke the area. If the scrubbers can desmoke it well, then that would be good. But don't make dealing with it rely on "reversing circulation", I mean, Christ, that could take forever to extinguish a flame. Opening a ship to a vacuum? Bad idea.

You'd eb ebtter off with transporters over that distance but asusmign they aren't available too then just have more security, any distance more than a deck or half the length of the ship is too great a distance period.

Why wouldn't you train security for combat in nullo? All you have to is stand at the bottom of the shaft, jump, let your mometum carry you up, and then grab hold of something at the top. Remember I'm talking about localized gravity ... turn it off in that spot only.

Since they would be in zero-G situations if they lost power, then it is probably a good idea to train for zero-G combat. However, it's not good to rely on it as a way to get things done in general. Same with transporters.

AS I've been trained to deal with fires as part of my Fuel specialist training let me tell you that around elecronic equipment Halon is the ONLY way to go. A fire extinguisher or AFFF (Aqueous Film Formin Foam) is HORRIBLE and IDIOTIC for fires near electronic equipment.

Isn't Halon toxic? If you let loose with this stuff would that force the Egineering crew to get the hell out?

Wouldn't a FIRE force them to get out? You want them to carry on with normal duties in a fire, instead of fighting the fire and securing the compartment?

For the engineers if they can't function basd on readouts and their sensors then they must spend all their time just looking at the core which does no godd, they shouldn't be in engineering. Engineers function based upon readouts provided by sensors, that doesn't change if you can't see the object in question. Does anyone think that just because engineers aboard a nuclear ship don't spend half their day staring at the physical core itself they can't do their job?
Currently all those readouts are damn close to the core. Further in ST egineers repair damage ... which presumably means working close to the core itself.

AND?

Compressed air is a handy and robust enough technology that I'd like to have it as my go to source with manual equipment as backup.
I'd have to go electrical. More portable, fewer bad things that can happen. The real limiting factor is the motor (if I recall). Given the level of power we are running the energy cost is minimal.

I never said hand tools were bad. I said "Use LP air and electricity". This does not rule out hand tools, it simply means use power tools. Are you going to use a wrench to remove paint? My point was about "magic tools" like phasers that you can use to engrave a monogrammed whisky flask. Jeeze.

Which amounts to the same thing as I just suggested.
It's a good deal less than what I initially replied to. There is no need for block and tackle in nullo that I can see.

So every time we need to move something heavy, we would shut off the power to gravity. Like, if we have a case of #10 allen wrenches that we want to stow from the dock, we would turn off the power to move it 300 feet instead of having a couple dudes strong-arming it or hooking it up to a chainfall. We'd have vertical ladders that we could just push it down in zero G, and maybe have a guy strong enough to deal with both his and the case's inertia at the bottom of the trunk, instead of just carrying it down some steps or chainfalling it down a trunk.

Or if there's a fire in the "gravity machine" compartment, we'd just suck the vacuum out. Nevermind if the flames have melted through the deck to a living space, or the vacuum thingy gets damaged. We'd just let our poorly-trained crew figure something out to replace their reliance on machines that compromise the vacuum-tight integrity of their home. Maybe they could bleach it.

Holodecks go, FIRST. They're utterly useless - if you have to drill men, do so at their stations, on duty, like real navies do. Take the two biggest holodecks and turn them into crew lounges. Take the rest of them and turn them into mess halls.
Do you have any idea how much cash militaries but into VR simulators to do proper training? Drilling men at their station is fine, but its also limited. You can't fake major explosions. You can't a near to exact replica of a fission plant about to overload. Real militaries would KILL to get their hands on something like the holodec.

I dispute that claim. It's just nonsense. Your claim is that "familiarity breed contempt. Well, tell that to guys who train for catastrophes every day as though their lives depended on it. It's just not true. How are you going to have it? That they are complacent in machinery, or that they train for the failure of that machinery? Sailors who work in what I have characterized as harsh, industrial environments train constantly for every kind of failure, and they don't take alarms for granted at all. If they did, navies would simply cease to exist.

Ok, so maybe fighter pilots aren't in the navy. So training for failure of their craft breeds contempt?

[tharkûn]

What if you can't access the compartment checklist (oh wait, Starfleet doesn't use those) and you don't know what's in the space that's on fire? What if combustion isn't complete? What if opening the compartment to the vacuum of space would be bad? Having a system that is designed to disrupt the vacuum-tight integrity of the ship is bad. What if that part has been so damaged by heat and smoke that it won't go back to its original state, or work at all?
My exact quote:
Don't vent the place into space ... seal of the area and reverse the flow of air out of there.

Notice I specifically state not to vent into space and disrupt the vacuum tight integrity, and you attack the position directly opposite mine. Fires, once contained, are not a huge issue. The oxygen can be recovered. Further I take it *non* of you have ever heard of flame resistant carpet? Not everything burns.

Who cares? Carpet is high-maintenance. If you need to measure the difference between a sprained wrist and a broken one, then you probably aren't hurt. In either event, that's a visit to medical.
Why is carpet high maintanence? This is space ... there is not a continious influx of dust, dirt, and grime. Its a *closed* environment. Have we *ever* seen a vacuum cleaner in ST? Nope. Unlike upon atmosphere ships you do not have a constant influx of particulent matter to become dust in the ship.

Earlier you said "I'm not sure that even Iowas pitch that much". Are you not aware that the Iowas are not exactly known for how much they pitch?
Nope. I used Iowa's simply because they had the biggest guns. I imagine the worst ships would be the one that has the most recoil with the lowest mass. I don't know what that is. However in ST we see crew thrown bodily across the room when the ship pitches.

Try traveling on a Fox frigate or a CG cutter for a while and tell me how much they don't pitch.
Look the important thing is how much force you end up hitting the bulkhead with. In high G fighters we strap people into padding ... and they still come away with bruises. In ST we see people thrown bodily across the room. Padding is a good thing.

You also mentioned burning off carpet, or bleaching it. So, when you have something unknown in the carpet, you would introduce a harsh chemical or a fire. Great.
Same thing you do if it comes in anywhere else. I've seen bacteria that suvive in iodine. There is *no* way to deal with a bioweapon that does not involve harsh chemicals which can denature virii or some other extreme condition (like extreme heat).

Which is why we see all those smooth bulkheads in Star Trek! Ships are harsh, industrial places to work.

Which is why I think ST's ergonomics suck. For instance we see that their railings instead of stopping some one in flight, takes and provides a nice torque and rotates the poor SOB so he lands on his head. Traction and handholds are your friends.

Too much complexity. Just fight the fucking fire and desmoke the area. If the scrubbers can desmoke it well, then that would be good. But don't make dealing with it rely on "reversing circulation", I mean, Christ, that could take forever to extinguish a flame. Opening a ship to a vacuum? Bad idea.
How do you reverse the flow? Have a large low pressure reserve (gee have you ever heard of negative pressure systems?). If you need to vent the place, just break the seal. This is not a hard concept and is used the world over. Keep your hazardous rooms at negative pressure with respect to the corridor and keep place like crew quarters at positive pressure. Have piping leading to an evacuated tank so you can quickly and easily vent areas. Its dirt simple and automatic.

Further you missed the other have ... vent the O2 out and vent CO2/N2 in. Its a dual approach that works well at rapidly quenching flames.

Since they would be in zero-G situations if they lost power, then it is probably a good idea to train for zero-G combat. However, it's not good to rely on it as a way to get things done in general. Same with transporters.

Sigh, what part of "not SOP" didn't you understand? My original point here was that the most space efficient thing to have would be ladders in case the turbolifts go down (and presumably the transporters also). In cases of emergency you could kill the gravity *if needed* to rapidly ascend or descend.


Wouldn't a FIRE force them to get out? You want them to carry on with normal duties in a fire, instead of fighting the fire and securing the compartment?
Again you are not reading my earlier posts for CONTEXT. I said I wanted an automatic system for something major, but didn't want it to be activated if you had something small easily dealt with without flooding main egineering.

AND?
Let's say you do flood main egineering when a small fire breaks out. This occludes the readouts, and your egineers have a harder time to work. For something major ... then of course flood the place.

I never said hand tools were bad. I said "Use LP air and electricity". This does not rule out hand tools, it simply means use power tools. Are you going to use a wrench to remove paint? My point was about "magic tools" like phasers that you can use to engrave a monogrammed whisky flask. Jeeze.
Notice I agree with you on electricity. Compressed air ... I'm leary of it a completely enclosed space. When I mentioned hand tools it was because its a GLARING DEFECT in Trek. You should have something that works even when everything else on the damn ship is busted.

So every time we need to move something heavy, we would shut off the power to gravity. Like, if we have a case of #10 allen wrenches that we want to stow from the dock, we would turn off the power to move it 300 feet instead of having a couple dudes strong-arming it or hooking it up to a chainfall. We'd have vertical ladders that we could just push it down in zero G, and maybe have a guy strong enough to deal with both his and the case's inertia at the bottom of the trunk, instead of just carrying it down some steps or chainfalling it down a trunk.
1. You do have transporters for seriously heavy stuff (like oh say whales and cubic metres of water).
2. We have already seen anti-gravity transportation devices. rather than bother with chains which you can nicely hang yourself on when you go airborne ... you place the object in question on an anti-gravity pallet and gently push it where you go.

as for sending stuff down in nullo ... umm the interia of the case is whatever you give it (MINUS wind resistance). If you push something in nullo there is NO OTHER FORCE making it go faster. In short if you can accelerate it, you can likely decelerate it.

Or if there's a fire in the "gravity machine" compartment, we'd just suck the vacuum out. Nevermind if the flames have melted through the deck to a living space, or the vacuum thingy gets damaged. We'd just let our poorly-trained crew figure something out to replace their reliance on machines that compromise the vacuum-tight integrity of their home. Maybe they could bleach it.
Or maybe we could use a simple thing a fire extinguisher. Further there is no "gravity room", if the ship seperates there is still gravity. If the ships power goes down ... there is still gravity. We can count the number of times the gravity has gone out in ST (barring ENT) on hand.

The simple fact of the matter is fires are not that horrid in space. Unlike on earth where they have an unlimited supply of oxygen, you can control the flow of oxygen. Even if the fire is burning metal you can still put it out (which as I understand it, most modern fire suppresion systems can't). Its your damn choice how to fight a fire. You can flood the compartment with something and that will put out the fire. It might get expensive, it might get messy, and it might impair your ability to function.

However if that doesn't work you can still starve the fire of oxygen ITS YOUR BLOODY CHOICE.

I dispute that claim. It's just nonsense. Your claim is that "familiarity breed contempt. Well, tell that to guys who train for catastrophes every day as though their lives depended on it
Not everyone responds the same. Some people have admirable discipline and will respond identically to it. The point is to VARY the schedule. Why do you think "surprise fire drills" were invented?

How are you going to have it? That they are complacent in machinery, or that they train for the failure of that machinery? Sailors who work in what I have characterized as harsh, industrial environments train constantly for every kind of failure, and they don't take alarms for granted at all. If they did, navies would simply cease to exist.
Ever look over the number of ships lost because somebody doesn't pay attention to something they should? Whole navies are at the bottom of the oceon because some numnutz screwed the hell up. I have no problem with training for disaster, the problem is doing it every bloody time. You cannot maintain peak awareness en perpetuity ... vary the schedule. Rather than having an alarm every day ... AVERAGE an alarm every day. Some have 2 others have 0.

Ok, so maybe fighter pilots aren't in the navy. So training for failure of their craft breeds contempt?
Running every mission like you are about to turn into a fireball is. When it looks like you are going to blow up correct procedure is to *eject*, this gets rather costly as you send planes into the drink. Yes you train for your plane going down, but you do it IN A SIMULATOR (gee yet another place the holodec would be useful) ... you do not treat every sortie like your plane is a ticking time bomb a few seconds away from blowing apart (in which case you eject your ass out). Yes you train for underwater egress, but you do so in a dunk tank in a sim ... not with real aircraft.

The point is to make such training frequent ... but not regularly scheduled. Mix up the damn schedule.

Never mind that externally carried missiles will have to be some warhead other than antimatter because of the inherent danger (dare I say rampant stupidity?) of carrying a brace of fully-armed matter-antimatter warheads on your hull.

I'd go with big fusion war heads myself. The point is on current ST ships a very low percentage of their surface area is used for weapons. Given their GLARING INABILITY to get off high power volleys ... I'd look at strapping something like a missile version of Tsar Bomba onto the outside and let loose in swarms.

Your first serious shot (as opposed to range finding shots) is your most important shot. If its lethal ... that's a good thing.

Think fighter aircraft. Yes its dangerous to have external missiles, but its better to have those and the ability to kill your enemy with AtA missiles before he kills you. Its not necessarily a bad thing if you crumple and die after one hit ... if you are fast enough with enough punch not to get hit.