ok class

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-08-31 02:50am

Hamel wrote:Cut Shakespeare from English class PLEASE

Having students take turns at reading passages from the plays is a waste of time and an embarassing undertaking for many students.

I kinda liked doing that, actually. For some reason, I always played Iago.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-08-31 03:08am

Lord Poe wrote:While I'd eliminate "In God We Trust" from money and other government buildings, I would not eliminate religion and Fundamentalism. We NEED these things. Let's face it: rabid-religious people have no moral center except for what religion teaches them. That's why they can't fathom an atheist having a moral center. So, do you want these wackos with zero morals running around?

I think we should have a picture of a Mutt or a wolf and have the words "In DOG we trust" after all we can't trust cat....

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-08-31 03:14am

I had fun with Shakesphere, for one all of those sexual plays are perfectly subersive, and along with Oscar Wilde he's the got the best lines for making fools of the brainless petty tyrants in school adminstration.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-08-31 12:25pm

I do whole heartedly agree with cutting PE and sports.. not only is it uterly useless(and the graduation requirement preventied me from taking AP Psychology) but it creates a sort of clas system. With atheletes being given preferential treatment over those of us that actually work for our grades.

I cannot list how many times I have seen a teacher alter a football players failing grade so he can play in the next game...

Not only that, but PE also serves as a breeding ground for a sort of Macho, homophobic attitude. Weight training scared the fuck out of me last year, especially when I overheard conversations regarding beating the shit out of gay people they catch showing affection to one another...

But that is off topic...

The budget used for PE classes and sports equipment would find a more productive use in the science department. My AP Biology class would have done a lab on DNA profiling, but we cant afford the equipment... BUt of course PE got new weights a couple years ago...

A logic course... himm.. a few suggestions perhaps...\

Principles of logic: with an essay on the need for logicx in our society

Logical fallacies: With an essay or project detailing the reasons why logical fallacies are detrimental to and harm society in general.

Argumentation and debating: Building on the previous information, the students will pair up, pick a topic, research it, and have a no holds barred, debate over opposing sides. Winner getting extra credit.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-08-31 12:37pm

The school district recently spent over a million dollars renovating the track, adding new bleachers, a new speaker system, etc. etc.

Meanwhile, my history teacher last year continually petitioned the school for a new pencil sharpener, only to be denied because of 'budget reasons'.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-08-31 02:13pm

HemlockGrey wrote:The school district recently spent over a million dollars renovating the track, adding new bleachers, a new speaker system, etc. etc.

Meanwhile, my history teacher last year continually petitioned the school for a new pencil sharpener, only to be denied because of 'budget reasons'.

THat is fucking bullshit... Yet another example of how worthles athletics are valued more than what really matters in a school... education.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-08-31 03:47pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I do whole heartedly agree with cutting PE and sports.. not only is it uterly useless(and the graduation requirement preventied me from taking AP Psychology) but it creates a sort of clas system. With atheletes being given preferential treatment over those of us that actually work for our grades.

I've never seen this.

I cannot list how many times I have seen a teacher alter a football players failing grade so he can play in the next game...

The problem is with the teacher, not with the idea of a football program.

Not only that, but PE also serves as a breeding ground for a sort of Macho, homophobic attitude. Weight training scared the fuck out of me last year, especially when I overheard conversations regarding beating the shit out of gay people they catch showing affection to one another...

I'm sure these people felt completely differently outside of weight training.

Its the class that causes the attitude, not the people!

The budget used for PE classes and sports equipment would find a more productive use in the science department. My AP Biology class would have done a lab on DNA profiling, but we cant afford the equipment... BUt of course PE got new weights a couple years ago...

How expensive was this equipment, versus the cost of the weights?

THat is fucking bullshit... Yet another example of how worthles athletics are valued more than what really matters in a school... education.

I know quite a few people who stayed in school soley due to sports. Consider the percentages of unschooled people in jail (its some ungodly number like 90%, although I don't have the exact statistic in front of me). If the sports money keeps them in school and out of jail, then it saved society an incredible sum of money.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-31 04:30pm

Howedar wrote:I know quite a few people who stayed in school soley due to sports. Consider the percentages of unschooled people in jail (its some ungodly number like 90%, although I don't have the exact statistic in front of me). If the sports money keeps them in school and out of jail, then it saved society an incredible sum of money.

It would be more constructive to promote better role models than athletes. One of the biggest problem facing American inner-city youth is that they aspire only to be basketball players, not doctors or scientists.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-08-31 06:33pm

I agree wholeheartedly. But I'm not talking about soley inner-city youth.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-08-31 06:46pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Howedar wrote:I know quite a few people who stayed in school soley due to sports. Consider the percentages of unschooled people in jail (its some ungodly number like 90%, although I don't have the exact statistic in front of me). If the sports money keeps them in school and out of jail, then it saved society an incredible sum of money.
It would be more constructive to promote better role models than athletes. One of the biggest problem facing American inner-city youth is that they aspire only to be basketball players, not doctors or scientists.

They've been trying to do that for quite some time now, and the problem is that all it takes is one football player battering or raping some woman to set the whole effort back to Square One.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-09-01 10:01am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I do whole heartedly agree with cutting PE and sports.. not only is it uterly useless(and the graduation requirement preventied me from taking AP Psychology) but it creates a sort of clas system. With atheletes being given preferential treatment over those of us that actually work for our grades.

Aren't you kinda pigeonholing students into either sports-obsessed jocks or industrious scholar-types?

Durandal wrote:They've been trying to do that for quite some time now, and the problem is that all it takes is one football player battering or raping some woman to set the whole effort back to Square One.

What exactly do you mean by that?? How is a football player battering an innocent making athletes more likely role models? (Of course, some of the more screwed-up youths venerate psychopaths, but I suppose they are not the majority)

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-09-01 01:13pm

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Fully enforce Jefferson's separation of church and state at all levels ...

100% agreement. "Alternate theory" education can happen when the child is enrolled in the Sunday School of the familiy's choice, if they so chose. But in the public ed. system it has no place.

[*]Pay science and math teachers more than other kinds of teachers, and make them exempt from income tax for life.

As much as science and math hurts my brain I do wish I'd gotten more out of it, and been instructed better. Our teaching materials were poor but I also admit so was my motivation... anyhow, I think all teachers should be paid more and given a hefty tax-deduction every year at Income Tax time. Perhaps teachers, providing proof of employment in a reputable school (on the W2 form) would get $1,000.00 back each year.

[*]Enact a national school standard enforcing the philosophy of logic as a required course. Remove the highly regarded but objectively useless study of Shakespeare in order to free up the necessary class time.

Logic and philosophy courses are a great idea. I don't think we should eliminate Shakespeare entirely, but he should be just one more luminary among many that are studied as a matter of course in a normal year, along with other writers of note. If someone wants to specialize in Shakespearian lit, that can wait until University.

[*]Eliminate all laws giving religions special treatment (eg- a religion is not automatically a tax-free charity; it must show that it puts most of its money toward actual charitable work, just like any secular charity like the United Way)

This was what I meant in my first post on the subject; Mike just articulated it more clearly. And the 'charitable work' must be work that clearly benefits the community as a whole, not just provides for people who enroll or support the churches' own programs for people that join their congregation (ie, religious schools or church camps).

[*]Eliminate all laws exempting religious people from punishment for crimes that would apply to others (eg- exemptions in child abuse laws giving religious people the right to refuse medical treatment for their children).

This should apply to all fundamentalist held beliefs, not only the religious ones. Remember some of the stories recently about parents starving their infants by giving them only crushed nuts and olive oil; refusing to nurse the baby because breast milk was an 'animal by-product'? That is a fundamentalist type of belief as well, and those parents should be facing the ironbar hotel as surely as the turds that tied their autistic boy to a chair for a 'faith healing'.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-09-01 01:25pm

Durandal, I understand your idea about eliminating PE and lettign parents sign their kids up for extracurricular activities. But some things to consider: Some extracurricular activities cost money (for equipment, for example) that some poor families may not afford; also, they take place after school. The problem with after school activities can be many--

In many places (in the West especially) school and home may be miles away from each other.

Poor families may rely on their kids to hold jobs after school, or come home and look after younger siblings so the parents can work.

There is little developed public transportation even in some cities (like Boise, for example, where I am now) much less in rural areas.

I disliked PE classes as a waste of my time and for weaker kids it was frequently a period of abuse by peers but for some kids who are motivated but hampered by outside circumstances a PE course is all they have. I'd advocate making it one of the elective courses. That might be the best way around the situation, and the kids who are more interested in academic study will not be removed from class for 45 minutes to play games.

But your idea for eliminating fat scholarships for people whose primary social skills are the capturing or tossing of an oblate spheroid is spot on. I am probably not the only person on this board who is a bit annoyed at the idea that some dude can get paid 'eleventy skillion' dollars a year and worshipped like a demigod for playing a game while a science teacher struggles to barely make car and house payments.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-09-01 02:31pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:What exactly do you mean by that?? How is a football player battering an innocent making athletes more likely role models? (Of course, some of the more screwed-up youths venerate psychopaths, but I suppose they are not the majority)

Read what I wrote. When some football player rapes a woman, it draws all the attention to him and away from any of the positive role models that may exist within sports.

Coyote wrote:Durandal, I understand your idea about eliminating PE and lettign parents sign their kids up for extracurricular activities. But some things to consider: Some extracurricular activities cost money (for equipment, for example) that some poor families may not afford; also, they take place after school. The problem with after school activities can be many--

Let's be honest with ourselves, here. What kid do you know got in shape exclusively because of gym class in high school? Most high schools have weight rooms that the students can use without paying. These weight rooms would stay because they're not reserved for PE; they're mainly for school sports teams.

The parents can sign their children up for school sports, which I don't really have a problem with, except in cases where high school football players are treated as gods among insects in small towns. Otherwise, school sports are an avenue of income for the school, they get parents involved and get kids socializing. PE does none of these things. It simply drains money from other programs whose existence is actually justifiable.

In many places (in the West especially) school and home may be miles away from each other.

Poor families may rely on their kids to hold jobs after school, or come home and look after younger siblings so the parents can work.

There is little developed public transportation even in some cities (like Boise, for example, where I am now) much less in rural areas.

I disliked PE classes as a waste of my time and for weaker kids it was frequently a period of abuse by peers but for some kids who are motivated but hampered by outside circumstances a PE course is all they have. I'd advocate making it one of the elective courses. That might be the best way around the situation, and the kids who are more interested in academic study will not be removed from class for 45 minutes to play games.

I don't see what PE does that either playing a school sport or just lifting weights in the school's weight room after school won't do. PE simply is not a course. It should not be taken for any kind of academic credit because it imparts no academically useful knowledge. School sports are fairly inexpensive, and if the kid is so poor that he cannot afford to play because of the cost of equipment or whatever (which is usually free anyway), then he can probably work something out with the school saying that they'll pay for everything he needs as long as he maintains a good GPA.

But your idea for eliminating fat scholarships for people whose primary social skills are the capturing or tossing of an oblate spheroid is spot on. I am probably not the only person on this board who is a bit annoyed at the idea that some dude can get paid 'eleventy skillion' dollars a year and worshipped like a demigod for playing a game while a science teacher struggles to barely make car and house payments.

That's another thing I'd eliminate: the ludicrously high coaching salaries that university coaches receive. There are professors on tenure who have dedicated their lives to a certain subject, be it physics, math, chemistry, English or whatever, who are, by every reasonable standard, smarter and more useful to society. They're educating the people who are going to be driving the economy 5 years down the road, and they get a fraction of the salary of a football coach.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-09-01 03:52pm

That's another thing I'd eliminate: the ludicrously high coaching salaries that university coaches receive. There are professors on tenure who have dedicated their lives to a certain subject, be it physics, math, chemistry, English or whatever, who are, by every reasonable standard, smarter and more useful to society. They're educating the people who are going to be driving the economy 5 years down the road, and they get a fraction of the salary of a football coach.

God yes.

My high school has PE has a one-quarter elective that's mandatory for the first two years. Of course, since my school does 'block' scheduling, the one-quarter PE class that you're required to take is 87 minutes every day for nine weeks, which is a phenomal waste of time.

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » 2003-09-01 11:23pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:you have full control of the u.s. government, and while you cannot violate the bill of rights, you can do pretty much anything else.

so, your goal is to eliminate fundamentalism, and in follow up religion. how do you go about it?

I'd make End of Evangelion mandatory viewing for all social studies classes.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-09-01 11:29pm

Bob McDob wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:you have full control of the u.s. government, and while you cannot violate the bill of rights, you can do pretty much anything else.

so, your goal is to eliminate fundamentalism, and in follow up religion. how do you go about it?
I'd make End of Evangelion mandatory viewing for all social studies classes.

Why?

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-09-01 11:44pm

Bob McDob wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:you have full control of the u.s. government, and while you cannot violate the bill of rights, you can do pretty much anything else.

so, your goal is to eliminate fundamentalism, and in follow up religion. how do you go about it?
I'd make End of Evangelion mandatory viewing for all social studies classes.

Uh huh. EoE is really the height of intellectual stimulation

"Omg! Anno is showing us his hate mail! Deep!"

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-09-02 09:18am

Evangelion in general and EoE specifically are HUGELY overrated. Massively. Unbelievably. If you look up "overrated" in the dictionary, you'll find a cel from EoE.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-09-02 01:03pm

PE is essential; it teaches the body, as opposed to teaching the mind. Why would anybody want to neglect the body, I have no idea.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-09-02 01:37pm

BoredShirtless wrote:PE is essential; it teaches the body, as opposed to teaching the mind. Why would anybody want to neglect the body, I have no idea.

PE is not academic in any sense of the word, hence it does not belong anywhere in Academia. The education of the mind and body are two separate things, and they each have their own institutions dedicated to them. Does your local gym offer math courses?

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2003-09-02 01:47pm

i always liked pe... i think they should increase the physical education at school... personally, or else some people will never ever get any form of exercise

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-09-02 02:51pm

Durandal wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:PE is essential; it teaches the body, as opposed to teaching the mind. Why would anybody want to neglect the body, I have no idea.
PE is not academic in any sense of the word, hence it does not belong anywhere in Academia.

You're describing higher learning. The aim of schools is not to pave a students career, but to show them the many roads they can walk. And while showing them the roads, teaching them how to walk. Schools aim to give pupils a well rounded education, and to maximise career opportunities. You can't do either properly without PE.

Durandal wrote: The education of the mind and body are two separate things, and they each have their own institutions dedicated to them.

They're seperate things only when you have choosen a career and want to get an education for your choice. Whether it be swinging a tennis racket or fixing a car, you need further education once you leave school.

Does your local gym offer math courses?

Who would spend most of their waking life from the ages of 6 to 17 in a place which doesn't teach math?

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-09-02 03:03pm

BoredShirtless wrote:
Durandal wrote: The education of the mind and body are two separate things, and they each have their own institutions dedicated to them.
They're seperate things only when you have choosen a career and want to get an education for your choice. Whether it be swinging a tennis racket or fixing a car, you need further education once you leave school.

I better clear this one up. Parents can naturally send their kids off to a sporting institution for further "education" in one or more specific sports. But not every parent may be able to afford or even be bothered with this. Why should a child have to put up with the limitations of his parents? Schools can provide; so let em provide.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-09-02 03:25pm

BoredShirtless wrote:I better clear this one up. Parents can naturally send their kids off to a sporting institution for further "education" in one or more specific sports. But not every parent may be able to afford or even be bothered with this. Why should a child have to put up with the limitations of his parents? Schools can provide; so let em provide.

Except that resources are limited and there simply aren't enough people with a realistic chance of success at professional athletics to justify the expense of teaching it. I'm ambivilant on the whole issue of gym (I never particularly liked it myself, but I can understand the arguments in its favor), but it does not offer skills that in most students' cases will ever be used professionally.

Of course, in most cases, advanced math, history, civics, science, and literature won't be used by the student after graduation either, but understanding those subjects is critical to a solid educational and civic foundation. Not being a huge fatass is critical too, but the question is, can gym class have any impact on that, and is it a school's responsibility to do so when there are already so many critical demands on its resources?

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