JW won in court Blainville lose fight

[Darth Wong]

Enigma can you tell me what your JW friends does when they ring or knock at a door and its a Muslim who answer,do you still want to tell him your version of the truth?

We talk to all types of people. From atheists to zionists and everything in between.

That's a nice way of saying that you bother people even if it's fucking obvious that they're not interested.

[apocolypse]

Mike, what book are you talking about? My mom is a JW, I'd be interested in getting a copy too.

[Enigma]

Christ, Enigma. A not so veiled threat about Armageddon? Great way to advance your cause, buddy. Did I miss that comeback in last month's KM or something??

I'm not trying to threaten anyone, veiled or not. If it came out that way then I apologize. Some people here seem not to like witnesses coming to their door. I'm just saying that our work is temporary. When we stop, it won't be Armageddon yet. First it will be the great tribulation, then Armageddon.

[Darth Wong]

Mike, what book are you talking about? My mom is a JW, I'd be interested in getting a copy too.

I don't know the name of the book. All I know is that it contains all of the rules for how the JWs govern themselves, as well as Scriptural justifications for their various doctrinal positions. That much I was able to see before it was snatched away from me

I should have made note of the name of the book first, not that it would matter since they don't give it out to outsiders anyway.

[Darth Wong]

Christ, Enigma. A not so veiled threat about Armageddon? Great way to advance your cause, buddy. Did I miss that comeback in last month's KM or something??

I'm not trying to threaten anyone, veiled or not. If it came out that way then I apologize. Some people here seem not to like witnesses coming to their door. I'm just saying that our work is temporary. When we stop, it won't be Armageddon yet. First it will be the great tribulation, then Armageddon.

Yes yes, we all know the drill. Your "message of hope" is that we will suffer 7 years of horrifying death and destruction because we weren't among the 144,000 to be taken up to Heaven to rule alongside God the Happy Butcher.

[aronkerkhof]

Mike, the book's name is Shepparding the Flock, if I recall correctly.

Also, gee wiz, there are a lot of false beliefs going around about JW's. I'm curious where this 7 years of torment and whatever comes from. If anyone wants a straight, no spin pull no punches answer on what JW's believe, feel free to ask. I've got no reason to pull punches, but if you're going to dislike a group, it might be instructive to know the good reasons to do so.

My creds; 20 years as a witness, 3.5 years as a pioneer (the elite "shock troopers" of the door to door ministry ), and 5 years of that as a ministerial servant (sort of like a deacon) before stepping down. They have some very good points about them. For example, you never have to worry about witnesses blocking abortion clinics or engaging in political activism to push their views on creation and morality or what not. But there are many grave issues as well.

Enigma - I don't see how your statement can be taken any other way by an athiest. I also don't see how you can miss this. I mean, in your view, do you think an athiest is going to look forward to the great tribulation and armageddon just so they can at least not have people knocking on their doors? Good grief.

[AdmiralKanos]

Mike, the book's name is Shepparding the Flock, if I recall correctly.

Ah, I'll keep that in mind.

Also, gee wiz, there are a lot of false beliefs going around about JW's. I'm curious where this 7 years of torment and whatever comes from.

Ask Enigma. He's a JW, and he brought up this "tribulation" thing. Since the Book of Revelations predicts the "rapture", followed by the incredibly violent "tribulation" and then armageddon, this isn't coming out of thin air.

If anyone wants a straight, no spin pull no punches answer on what JW's believe, feel free to ask. I've got no reason to pull punches, but if you're going to dislike a group, it might be instructive to know the good reasons to do so.

Of course. Why do you think I want a closer look at that book?

My creds; 20 years as a witness, 3.5 years as a pioneer (the elite "shock troopers" of the door to door ministry ), and 5 years of that as a ministerial servant (sort of like a deacon) before stepping down. They have some very good points about them. For example, you never have to worry about witnesses blocking abortion clinics or engaging in political activism to push their views on creation and morality or what not. But there are many grave issues as well.

Do you know where I can get a copy of that book?

Enigma - I don't see how your statement can be taken any other way by an athiest. I also don't see how you can miss this. I mean, in your view, do you think an athiest is going to look forward to the great tribulation and armageddon just so they can at least not have people knocking on their doors? Good grief.

He believes armageddon is right around the corner. It's always right around the corner. Paul thought it was so close that men of his era should stay unmarried so they'd be chaste and pure when the rapture came ... two thousand years ago. I guess we missed it.

[aronkerkhof]

Anytime I've wanted to take a look at it a google search has yielded the whole text in the first page of results. The reason that it is not for circulation outside the organization is because its a textbook for a class. If you do find it, its in broken outline form. Presumably the instructor would round out the class and the students would make notes in the margins or whatever.

Its not quite as exciting, IMHO as the scientology stuff; mostly administrative issues, as you say. Probably the most controversial thing in it is going to be unit 5, IIRC, which deals with judical committees, which can excommunicate witnesses for various offenses.

Anyway, I know there is lots of stuff in Revelation, but everyone has their own interpretation of it. JW's don't believe in any sort of tormenting by god. As I said, death is the worst that can happen to humans rejecting god in witness dogma.

[Crayz9000]

Ask Enigma. He's a JW, and he brought up this "tribulation" thing. Since the Book of Revelations predicts the "rapture", followed by the incredibly violent "tribulation" and then armageddon, this isn't coming out of thin air.

I may as well point out (and mention that I'm risking going off on a tangent here) that the whole idea of the "Rapture" was cooked up in the mid-19th century. Its only justification in the Bible is an obscure verse saying that of two brothers working in a field, one will be struck down and the other live...

If anyone wants to argue that, they're free to.

[Darth Wong]

Ask Enigma. He's a JW, and he brought up this "tribulation" thing. Since the Book of Revelations predicts the "rapture", followed by the incredibly violent "tribulation" and then armageddon, this isn't coming out of thin air.

I may as well point out (and mention that I'm risking going off on a tangent here) that the whole idea of the "Rapture" was cooked up in the mid-19th century. Its only justification in the Bible is an obscure verse saying that of two brothers working in a field, one will be struck down and the other live...

If anyone wants to argue that, they're free to.

I can believe that, but the Rapture is part pf JW dogma, regardless of whether its Scriptural basis is bogus or not. It's certainly no less bogus than their "no blood transfusions" justification.

[aronkerkhof]

That's news to me, Mike. Who said they believe in the rapture, or are you redefining rapture?

[Darth Wong]

That's news to me, Mike. Who said they believe in the rapture, or are you redefining rapture?

The part about 144,000 people being taken up into Heaven to rule alongside God.

[aronkerkhof]

Oh. That is not the same thing as rapture. Its just a classical people die and go to heaven thing.

[Darth Wong]

Oh. That is not the same thing as rapture. Its just a classical people die and go to heaven thing.

Whatever; most people use "rapture" to describe that "taken up into heaven" thing. In any case, the point is that we're talking about this asinine belief about people being taken up into heaven and a horrible "tribulation" coming upon the Earth afterwards, which Enigma directly alluded to. It is hardly a "message of hope" to be told that 0.002% of the Earth's population gets a free pass but everyone else must suffer.

[aronkerkhof]

Most people describe dying and going to heaven as rapture? That's not really the case. In any case, the Great Tribulation in witness dogma affects christians, or really religious people in general. Its when the secular world decides its had enough with religion and rounds them up and tries to do away with them. You'd love it. Thats what precipitates Armageddon, God stepping in and revealing himself in some visible fashion. Those still willing to take up arms against him would then be destroyed.

The conceit here is that surely if God made a convincing display of his presence and power, only irredeemably wicked people wouldn't have a change of heart. That's an instructive thing to keep in mind sometimes when you find yourself talking to a witness. They usually don't think *you're* going to die, after all, you seem to be a decent person. Just the really bad other people, whoever they might be.

[Darth Wong]

Most people describe dying and going to heaven as rapture?

No, they're talking about this goofy idea of precisely 144,000 people being "taken up".

That's not really the case. In any case, the Great Tribulation in witness dogma affects christians, or really religious people in general. Its when the secular world decides its had enough with religion and rounds them up and tries to do away with them. You'd love it.

Where in the Bible is the "secular world" described? In that era, "unbelievers" were people who did not believe in Jehovah, not people who believed in no God at all.

Thats what precipitates Armageddon, God stepping in and revealing himself in some visible fashion. Those still willing to take up arms against him would then be destroyed.

Yes, the big war to end all wars, etc. Massive bloodshed on a global scale, followed by God's horrible vengeance upon the unbelievers. Yes, I've heard this "message of hope" before.

The conceit here is that surely if God made a convincing display of his presence and power, only irredeemably wicked people wouldn't have a change of heart.

So you're "wicked" if you don't suck up to the most powerful warlord in town?

That's an instructive thing to keep in mind sometimes when you find yourself talking to a witness. They usually don't think *you're* going to die, after all, you seem to be a decent person. Just the really bad other people, whoever they might be.

Except that "really bad" means "unbeliever". That's the crux of the problem; JWs are so accustomed to thinking of disbelief as evil that it simply doesn't occur to them that someone might genuinely disbelieve and actually be a good person. They think that a disbeliever is just "fooling himself" or some other such nonsense.

[aronkerkhof]

While 144k people being taken up may or may not be more goofy than any other belief, you keep saying thinks like "taken up" that make me believe you don't really understand the concept. And I don't think you care enough about the distinction (not being negative here; why should you?) to have me explain it. Just know if you throw around the term rapture around witnesses you're going to get a big "huh?" and they'll try to refute the prevailing protestant version of it.

To explain where the secular world is defined in the bible would take a long post indeed, and you'd be just as incredulous as you are now.

Hey, I get it. You don't take comfort in the message. Me neither. But what you're missing is your view of their message isn't the message they think they're bringing because:

Except that "really bad" means "unbeliever". That's the crux of the problem; JWs are so accustomed to thinking of disbelief as evil that it simply doesn't occur to them that someone might genuinely disbelieve and actually be a good person. They think that a disbeliever is just "fooling himself" or some other such nonsense.

I totally agree. That's my entire point, and that is why I say that the WORST thing you can do if you really care about helping anyone is to confirm their world view by being an asshole to them at the door. I'm not saying that is what you do; but there are plenty of people who do, or at least claim to. I suggest a different tactic that has a higher chance of positive outcome; rock their world. Be a good guy, take the high road, be polite. Debate them if you think you're informed enough to do so, but don't get nasty. Guys like me will thank you for it. Agree/disagree/what?

[Darth Wong]

I suggest a different tactic that has a higher chance of positive outcome; rock their world. Be a good guy, take the high road, be polite. Debate them if you think you're informed enough to do so, but don't get nasty. Guys like me will thank you for it. Agree/disagree/what?

That's what I normally do. I have had many civilized debates with JWs, although in at least one of those cases, the JW ended up insulting and swearing at me even though I was being completely polite to him, and he ended up coming back to apologize the next day.

However, my point is that people have every right to be rude to these people because despite their own beliefs to the contrary, JWs are being rude to others.

[aronkerkhof]

That's what I normally do. I have had many civilized debates with JWs, although in at least one of those cases, the JW ended up insulting and swearing at me even though I was being completely polite to him, and he ended up coming back to apologize the next day.

Mind sharing that experience with me? I've never heard of anything like it.

However, my point is that people have every right to be rude to these people because despite their own beliefs to the contrary, JWs are being rude to others.

I don't disagree that they have the right. I'm just saying its not "right". And I'd especially go further and saying that no matter what they say no one has the right to physically assault or threaten bodily harm to a witness. I feel that many people here think its a sport, and think they're doing a good thing, and they get a lot of positive support on this board in that view. Am I wrong to counter balance that? Because this stuff affects my life in very real ways, and I'm just an innocent bystander.

[Darth Wong]

Mind sharing that experience with me? I've never heard of anything like it.

It was a coworker. I don't have precise transcripts or a photographic memory, but basically, he brought up the idea of creationism, and I dismissed it as nonsense. He "proved" it with the Bible, at which point I said the Bible is not evidence. He said the Bible came from God, so I asked him prove that without resorting to circular logic. He promptly produced a Bible quote, and I told him that was circular logic. He produced the "Book of Daniel" argument, and I told him that was circular logic too (the fact that it claims to have been written before the Persian conquest does not mean that it actually was). He started raising his voice and insisting that the Bible came from divine inspiration, and I kept repeating that he had not provided any evidence to that effect. He finally got all red in the face and started pounding his fist on the desk, and swearing, and then stalked off. I shrugged and went back to work. The next day, he came to me and apologized.

I don't disagree that they have the right. I'm just saying its not "right". And I'd especially go further and saying that no matter what they say no one has the right to physically assault or threaten bodily harm to a witness.

Not on a first visit, no. However, if this witness continually shows up at your doorstep even after being told to stay away, then he is escalating to outright harassment, and should be dealt with accordingly.

I feel that many people here think its a sport, and think they're doing a good thing, and they get a lot of positive support on this board in that view. Am I wrong to counter balance that? Because this stuff affects my life in very real ways, and I'm just an innocent bystander.

It's not just people here. A lot of people, including many who believe in God, react in an unpleasant manner when they are interrupted at home by a JW. It's a natural reaction, and quite frankly, any JW who thinks of a negative reaction to such an unsolicited intrusion into someone else's private space as proof that the other person is an asshole is obviously not capable of introspection.

[aronkerkhof]

It was a coworker. I don't have precise transcripts or a photographic memory, but basically, he brought up the idea of creationism, and I dismissed it as nonsense. He "proved" it with the Bible, at which point I said the Bible is not evidence. He said the Bible came from God, so I asked him prove that without resorting to circular logic. He promptly produced a Bible quote, and I told him that was circular logic. He produced the "Book of Daniel" argument, and I told him that was circular logic too (the fact that it claims to have been written before the Persian conquest does not mean that it actually was). He started raising his voice and insisting that the Bible came from divine inspiration, and I kept repeating that he had not provided any evidence to that effect. He finally got all red in the face and started pounding his fist on the desk, and swearing, and then stalked off. I shrugged and went back to work. The next day, he came to me and apologized.

That makes sense. JW's often have superhuman cool at the door, but you can catch them off gaurd in a more personal setting. Your friend there had a madding situation to be in. I count myself grateful and fortunate that I was introduced to logical fallacies in regards to something that I held no personal stake in. It helped me dispassionately apply them to other things I held more dearly later.

Not on a first visit, no. However, if this witness continually shows up at your doorstep even after being told to stay away, then he is escalating to outright harassment, and should be dealt with accordingly.

Physical violence is warranted just because somebody shows up more than once? I can by sympathetic, but its frankly quite hard for me to understand how people get multiple visits from witnesses if they tell them not to come back. Its completely at odds to everything I know about the way they operate. Its even more unlikely if you live in suburban or rural areas, where witnesses are lucky to turn over their territory once a year.

Think about it. They don't want to go where they are obviously not wanted. This is different then going back when someone says merely "I'm not interested." They may change their mind later, and people do change their minds. Also, people move around, so even if you get placed on the list, you will most likely receive a call every 1-5 years by an experienced JW that won't try to preach at you, just say something along the lines of "our records show you as someone who does not want witnesses calling on them, and we are in the process of keeping them up to date. Do you still feel this way?"

They keep detailed records, but people make mistakes. Let me assure you that witnesses are absolutely mortified when they realize that they just did call on or were about to call on someone on the DNC list. They are representing the almighty, after all, and such mundane errors reflect poorly on him.

It's not just people here. A lot of people, including many who believe in God, react in an unpleasant manner when they are interrupted at home by a JW. It's a natural reaction, and quite frankly, any JW who thinks of a negative reaction to such an unsolicited intrusion into someone else's private space as proof that the other person is an asshole is obviously not capable of introspection.

Again, I am sympathetic. But there are negative reactions, and there are negative reactions. I expect drooling idiot baptists to blow up and call down the fire of hell and scream and yell at people that have different beliefs from them. I wouldn't expect it from patrons of this board.

Besides, we're talking about knocking on your front door by people that live in your community. They aren't throwing a pail of cold water in your bed or peeking in your windows. There is a certain dignity of accountability there that is lacking in, say, a telemarketer. But I can certainly see where a person would disagree.

[Mad]

Yes, the big war to end all wars, etc. Massive bloodshed on a global scale, followed by God's horrible vengeance upon the unbelievers. Yes, I've heard this "message of hope" before.

Well, the hope is what happens after that. The whole living forever in paradise on earth thing (for those that aren't a part of the 144,000). And the dead who are brought back to life on earth that have the same chance.

[Vertigo1]

Whether you believe it or not isn't an issue. It actually happened.

Right. Well then, since the cops got called, and they actually followed up, there will be a case number. You could get a copy of that report, simply by picking up the phone and calling. It would be a trivial matter to then scan that report, and you would certainly prove me wrong and yourself right.

One problem. No scanner.

But you won't, cause it never happened. You'd have us all believe that the people who called the cops because you showed up naked would then not call the cops when you pulled a weapon on them, and when you turned a hose on them. And you'd also have me believe that witnesses would actually keep showing up there, not just a year later, which I might believe, but less than a month later, just because they want to convert an athiest.

Either you are a liar or a loony, either way it doesn't impress me much.

Whatever. They started harassing me, and they got harassed in return. They're nothing but a bunch of good for nothing trolls. The whole lot of them. I'm just glad they finally took a hint and quit showing up. The mormons I don't mind since they actually take no for an answer. The JW's are worse than the damned anal retentive christians (note: I'm not lumping ALL christians in the same boat. Just those extremeists....) when it comes to imposing beliefs on people.

[Keevan_Colton]

I've wondered how they'd react if you open the door and say "hello, my name is Legion"

That was one of my other fanged friends favourite approaches to being harrassed by various religious nuts....it was always amusing.

[Keevan_Colton]

Hm....there's a witness hall on the road I take to college....I do wonder what the reaction might be if I called every few days asking if they were intrested in death metal CD's, alcohol or hard core pornography....hm?