U.S. rushed post-Saddam planning
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U.S. rushed post-Saddam planning
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030 ... -9393r.htm
U.S. rushed post-Saddam planning
By Rowan Scarborough
Published September 3, 2003
A secret report for the Joint Chiefs of Staff lays the blame for setbacks in Iraq on a flawed and rushed war-planning process that "limited the focus" for preparing for post-Saddam Hussein operations.
The report, prepared last month, said the search for weapons of mass destruction was planned so late in the game that it was impossible for U.S. Central Command to carry out the mission effectively. "Insufficient U.S. government assets existed to accomplish the mission," the classified briefing said.
The report is titled "Operation Iraqi Freedom Strategic Lessons Learned" and is stamped "secret." A copy was obtained by The Washington Times.
The report also shows that President Bush approved the overall war strategy for Iraq in August last year. That was eight months before the first bomb was dropped and six months before he asked the U.N. Security Council for a war mandate that he never received.
Senior U.S. officials, including Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, conceded in recent weeks that the Bush administration failed to predict the guerrilla war against American troops in Iraq. Saddam loyalists and foreign fighters have killed more than 60 soldiers since May 1, mostly with roadside bombs and rocket-propelled grenades.
The Congressional Budget Office projected yesterday that the demands of troop rotations globally will leave the Pentagon without any fresh Army units for Iraq in 2004 unless tours are extended beyond one year.
The Joint Chiefs report reveals deficiencies in the planning process. It says planners were not given enough time to put together the best blueprint for what is called Phase IV — the ongoing reconstruction of Iraq.
The report does not name any individual. Most war planning was conducted by Gen. Tommy Franks at U.S. Central Command; the Joint Chiefs of Staff, under the direction of Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman; and the Pentagon policy-writing shop led by Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith.
"Late formation of DoD [Phase IV] organizations limited time available for the development of detailed plans and pre-deployment coordination," the report says. "Command relationships (and communication requirements) and responsibilities were not clearly defined for DoD organizations until shortly before [Operation Iraqi Freedom] commenced."
In fact, the Pentagon was forced to scrap its original plan for rebuilding as violence increased against U.S. forces and basic services were slow to resume. L. Paul Bremer, a former ambassador, was tapped in mid-May to take over as Iraq's American administrator.
On the weapons search — the prime reason Mr. Bush cited for going to war — the Joint Chiefs report states: "Weapons of mass destruction (WMD) elimination and exploitation planning efforts did not occur early enough in the process to allow CentCom to effectively execute the mission. The extent of the planning required was underestimated. Insufficient U.S. government assets existed to accomplish the mission."
The initial search by military teams found no weapons at sites identified by the CIA and other intelligence agencies before the war. The Pentagon then replaced those teams with an overarching "Iraq Survey Group," which received additional expert personnel and new intelligence assets. Former U.N. weapons inspector David Kay is leading the search for weapons of mass destruction.
The report said the planning was poor because "WMD elimination/exploitation on a large scale was a new mission area. Division of responsibility for planning and execution was not clear. As a result planning occurred on an ad hoc basis and late in the process. Additionally, there were insufficient assets available to accomplish the mission. Existing assets were tasked to perform multiple, competing missions."
A Pentagon spokesman declined yesterday to comment specifically on the findings.
"We always look closely at everything we do to find ways to improve and do better," the spokesman said, "and Operation Iraqi Freedom is no exception. As to specifics of the lessons learned, it's still a draft document and classified, so it would be inappropriate to comment on that."
The report, labeled "final draft," suggests that combat commanders, such as Central Command, establish permanent cadres of specialists on weapons of mass destruction. It also recommends that each operational plan contain a section for dealing with such weapons.
On planning for the post-Saddam period, the interagency process, such as between the Pentagon and State Department, "was not fully integrated prior to hostilities." Before the war, "Phase IV objectives were identified but the scope of the effort required to continually refine operational plans for defeat of Iraqi military limited the focus on Phase IV."
The report also provides a classified timeline of events from September 11 leading to war. It says that on Aug. 29, 2002, Mr. Bush "approves Iraq goals, objectives and strategy."
Three months earlier, the Pentagon began a series of war exercises called "Prominent Hammer" to judge whether the force could win in Iraq and still maintain a deterrent in other theaters, such as South Korea. On Nov. 24, Gen. Franks, the Central Command chief, presented Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld with "six major tasks for success." Central Command held a major war game Oct. 4 and 5 to test Gen. Franks' plan.
The timeline also showed that the Bush administration stayed in close contact with Israel about its plans. In mid-February, "key Israeli leaders" received a briefing on the war plan. Shortly thereafter, CentCom began sharing information in Tel Aviv via U.S. European Command, whose area of responsibility includes the Jewish state.
The report states that the study looks at "the big issues — strategic perspective," as opposed to lessons-learned reports that examine many tactical issues.
The report awarded three grades. The worst was "capabilities that fell short of expectations or needs, and need to be redressed through new initiatives." Getting this low grade were the postwar planning and the search for weapons of mass destruction, as well as the mix of active and reserve forces, and the troop deployment to the region.
The next grade was "capabilities that demonstrated effectiveness, but need enhancement." Public affairs, special-operations forces, finding bombing targets and tracking the whereabouts of friendly troops received the grade.
The highest marks came under the category of "capabilities that reached new levels of performance and need to be sustained and improved." Joint service warfare, a key war-fighting requirement of Mr. Rumsfeld, got this high grade, as did global war-gaming.
The report also gave high marks to bombing "time-sensitive" targets. In the 2001 Afghanistan war, the report says, Gen. Franks and Mr. Rumsfeld had to approve the target list. But in Iraq, the command improved guidance and procedures so that commanders could launch strikes when targets emerged.
U.S. rushed post-Saddam planning
By Rowan Scarborough
Published September 3, 2003
A secret report for the Joint Chiefs of Staff lays the blame for setbacks in Iraq on a flawed and rushed war-planning process that "limited the focus" for preparing for post-Saddam Hussein operations.
The report, prepared last month, said the search for weapons of mass destruction was planned so late in the game that it was impossible for U.S. Central Command to carry out the mission effectively. "Insufficient U.S. government assets existed to accomplish the mission," the classified briefing said.
The report is titled "Operation Iraqi Freedom Strategic Lessons Learned" and is stamped "secret." A copy was obtained by The Washington Times.
The report also shows that President Bush approved the overall war strategy for Iraq in August last year. That was eight months before the first bomb was dropped and six months before he asked the U.N. Security Council for a war mandate that he never received.
Senior U.S. officials, including Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, conceded in recent weeks that the Bush administration failed to predict the guerrilla war against American troops in Iraq. Saddam loyalists and foreign fighters have killed more than 60 soldiers since May 1, mostly with roadside bombs and rocket-propelled grenades.
The Congressional Budget Office projected yesterday that the demands of troop rotations globally will leave the Pentagon without any fresh Army units for Iraq in 2004 unless tours are extended beyond one year.
The Joint Chiefs report reveals deficiencies in the planning process. It says planners were not given enough time to put together the best blueprint for what is called Phase IV — the ongoing reconstruction of Iraq.
The report does not name any individual. Most war planning was conducted by Gen. Tommy Franks at U.S. Central Command; the Joint Chiefs of Staff, under the direction of Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman; and the Pentagon policy-writing shop led by Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith.
"Late formation of DoD [Phase IV] organizations limited time available for the development of detailed plans and pre-deployment coordination," the report says. "Command relationships (and communication requirements) and responsibilities were not clearly defined for DoD organizations until shortly before [Operation Iraqi Freedom] commenced."
In fact, the Pentagon was forced to scrap its original plan for rebuilding as violence increased against U.S. forces and basic services were slow to resume. L. Paul Bremer, a former ambassador, was tapped in mid-May to take over as Iraq's American administrator.
On the weapons search — the prime reason Mr. Bush cited for going to war — the Joint Chiefs report states: "Weapons of mass destruction (WMD) elimination and exploitation planning efforts did not occur early enough in the process to allow CentCom to effectively execute the mission. The extent of the planning required was underestimated. Insufficient U.S. government assets existed to accomplish the mission."
The initial search by military teams found no weapons at sites identified by the CIA and other intelligence agencies before the war. The Pentagon then replaced those teams with an overarching "Iraq Survey Group," which received additional expert personnel and new intelligence assets. Former U.N. weapons inspector David Kay is leading the search for weapons of mass destruction.
The report said the planning was poor because "WMD elimination/exploitation on a large scale was a new mission area. Division of responsibility for planning and execution was not clear. As a result planning occurred on an ad hoc basis and late in the process. Additionally, there were insufficient assets available to accomplish the mission. Existing assets were tasked to perform multiple, competing missions."
A Pentagon spokesman declined yesterday to comment specifically on the findings.
"We always look closely at everything we do to find ways to improve and do better," the spokesman said, "and Operation Iraqi Freedom is no exception. As to specifics of the lessons learned, it's still a draft document and classified, so it would be inappropriate to comment on that."
The report, labeled "final draft," suggests that combat commanders, such as Central Command, establish permanent cadres of specialists on weapons of mass destruction. It also recommends that each operational plan contain a section for dealing with such weapons.
On planning for the post-Saddam period, the interagency process, such as between the Pentagon and State Department, "was not fully integrated prior to hostilities." Before the war, "Phase IV objectives were identified but the scope of the effort required to continually refine operational plans for defeat of Iraqi military limited the focus on Phase IV."
The report also provides a classified timeline of events from September 11 leading to war. It says that on Aug. 29, 2002, Mr. Bush "approves Iraq goals, objectives and strategy."
Three months earlier, the Pentagon began a series of war exercises called "Prominent Hammer" to judge whether the force could win in Iraq and still maintain a deterrent in other theaters, such as South Korea. On Nov. 24, Gen. Franks, the Central Command chief, presented Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld with "six major tasks for success." Central Command held a major war game Oct. 4 and 5 to test Gen. Franks' plan.
The timeline also showed that the Bush administration stayed in close contact with Israel about its plans. In mid-February, "key Israeli leaders" received a briefing on the war plan. Shortly thereafter, CentCom began sharing information in Tel Aviv via U.S. European Command, whose area of responsibility includes the Jewish state.
The report states that the study looks at "the big issues — strategic perspective," as opposed to lessons-learned reports that examine many tactical issues.
The report awarded three grades. The worst was "capabilities that fell short of expectations or needs, and need to be redressed through new initiatives." Getting this low grade were the postwar planning and the search for weapons of mass destruction, as well as the mix of active and reserve forces, and the troop deployment to the region.
The next grade was "capabilities that demonstrated effectiveness, but need enhancement." Public affairs, special-operations forces, finding bombing targets and tracking the whereabouts of friendly troops received the grade.
The highest marks came under the category of "capabilities that reached new levels of performance and need to be sustained and improved." Joint service warfare, a key war-fighting requirement of Mr. Rumsfeld, got this high grade, as did global war-gaming.
The report also gave high marks to bombing "time-sensitive" targets. In the 2001 Afghanistan war, the report says, Gen. Franks and Mr. Rumsfeld had to approve the target list. But in Iraq, the command improved guidance and procedures so that commanders could launch strikes when targets emerged.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
If it's true that they had an approved war plan eight months before going to war, the way the WMD situation and the reconstruction have turned out to be total clusterfucks so far is utterly inexcusable. Sadly, I'm not even surprised by this anymore.
Edi
Edi
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The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
They bought the necon (in turn, fed by that bastard construct the INC) bullshit line about liberation etc ... it's as if they thought "well, if we just remove Saddam, Iraq will just revert to it's default position, which is of course, secular liberal democracy!"Edi wrote:If it's true that they had an approved war plan eight months before going to war, the way the WMD situation and the reconstruction have turned out to be total clusterfucks so far is utterly inexcusable. Sadly, I'm not even surprised by this anymore.
Edi
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Well ,that is not really a surprise.
There were some sayings, I remember for such situations:
"Mache einen Plan, und sei ein froßes Licht. Mache dann noch einen Zweiten, funktionieren werden sie beide nicht."
Translated:
"Make a plan, and be a genius. Make then a second plan, they both won't work."
"Marx und Murks. Marx ist die Theorie. Murks ist die Praxis."
Translated:
"Marx and shit. Marx is, what is planned in theory. Shit is, what is made of that in reality."
There were some sayings, I remember for such situations:
"Mache einen Plan, und sei ein froßes Licht. Mache dann noch einen Zweiten, funktionieren werden sie beide nicht."
Translated:
"Make a plan, and be a genius. Make then a second plan, they both won't work."
"Marx und Murks. Marx ist die Theorie. Murks ist die Praxis."
Translated:
"Marx and shit. Marx is, what is planned in theory. Shit is, what is made of that in reality."
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Not really. You must be referring to the vast influx of Saudi whackjobs whoBoredShirtless wrote: Clearly there's a third type, the Fighter.
are flocking into Iraq to die messily at our hands
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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The problem is, there was no post-Saddam plan. And it's become patently obvious that the so-called "adults" in charge are imbeciles.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
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Meh, we're screwed because Klinton decided that he could cut an extraPatrick Degan wrote:The problem is, there was no post-Saddam plan. And it's become patently obvious that the so-called "adults" in charge are imbeciles.
four divisions from the US Army's OOB, and get away with it.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Yes, yes, the Evil Bill Clinton Mythology and all that blah blah blahblahblah...MKSheppard wrote:Meh, we're screwed because Klinton decided that he could cut an extraPatrick Degan wrote:The problem is, there was no post-Saddam plan. And it's become patently obvious that the so-called "adults" in charge are imbeciles.
four divisions from the US Army's OOB, and get away with it.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
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Clinton took a 14 division US Army and cut it down to just 10 divisions.Patrick Degan wrote: Yes, yes, the Evil Bill Clinton Mythology and all that blah blah blahblahblah...
Those 4 divisions would be fucking useful, oh right about now.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Isn't 20/20 hindsight a wonderful advantage, Shep?MKSheppard wrote:Clinton took a 14 division US Army and cut it down to just 10 divisions.Patrick Degan wrote: Yes, yes, the Evil Bill Clinton Mythology and all that blah blah blahblahblah...
Those 4 divisions would be fucking useful, oh right about now.
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Since there was no practical military reason in a post-Cold War world to maintain that level of troop strength (BTW which was laid down in the demobilisation plan outlined by Bush 41's defence secretary Dick Cheney and initiated in 1990).MKSheppard wrote:Clinton took a 14 division US Army and cut it down to just 10 divisions.Patrick Degan wrote: Yes, yes, the Evil Bill Clinton Mythology and all that blah blah blahblahblah...
Yes... naturally it's all the fault of the Evil Bill Clinton Monster that Junior knowingly took us into war woefully unprepared and then had no plan for what to do afterward.Those 4 divisions would be fucking useful, oh right about now.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
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Considering that George HW Bush had taken a 20 division army andIceberg wrote: Isn't 20/20 hindsight a wonderful advantage, Shep?
turned it into a 14 division army, did Klinton really need to cut it any more?
But oh thats right, he needed to "balance the budget" and do all sorts
of other shit with that money that was being wasted
Clinton's Neligience during the 1990s was nothing short of criminal,
particularly the way he treated the man he had hand-picked to be
his CIA director:
After Osama bin Laden's attack on hotels housing U.S. Marines in Yemen in December 1992 and the first World Trade Center bombing in February 1993, it was clear that the United States was being targeted by terrorists. Because of the new threat, Mr. Woolsey went out of his way to be accessible to the new president. In fact, he made the trip from CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, to the White House every day for the president's intelligence briefing, for which Mr. Woolsey's staff had prepared detailed reports. It had been the habit of previous presidents to welcome the CIA director into the Oval Office for the briefings so that complex issues could be clarified and advice given. Mr. Clinton, however, left Mr. Woolsey cooling his heels outside in the hall each time.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
The majority of the opposition is indeed home grown. Motivations differ (revenge, nationalism, Ba'ath Party, religion and money) but the amount of foreigners in Iraq is vastly overstated.MKSheppard wrote:Not really. You must be referring to the vast influx of Saudi whackjobs whoBoredShirtless wrote: Clearly there's a third type, the Fighter.
are flocking into Iraq to die messily at our hands
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So Clinton's cutting four divisions made it impossible for the Bush Administration to make a post-Iraq plan?MKSheppard wrote:Meh, we're screwed because Klinton decided that he could cut an extraPatrick Degan wrote:The problem is, there was no post-Saddam plan. And it's become patently obvious that the so-called "adults" in charge are imbeciles.
four divisions from the US Army's OOB, and get away with it.
I'm a little confused Shep, this almost looks like a big RED HERRING or something.
Howedar is no longer here. Need to talk to him? Talk to Pick.
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Essentially, yeah. How are we going to keep commitments in Afghanistan,Howedar wrote:So Clinton's cutting four divisions made it impossible for the Bush Administration to make a post-Iraq plan?
Irak, Kosovo (oh thank you again, Klinton, for that bullshit), Bosnia (thanks again, Klinton), etc without running the military bone dry?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
C'mon Shep, we didn;t have a plan for post war Iraq. That was painfully obvious within the first days after the war was over. And you trot Clinton out??
I'm not a fan of his and I am the first to lay part (if not most) of the blame for the attacks of the Cole and 9/11 at his feet for his piss poor handling of the growing terrorist threat. But to extend it into Iraq is patently absurd. They knew BEFORE they went in there that they were short 4 divisions so the blame lies SQUARELY on Bush's shoulders.
They were living in fantasy land from the start of that war and cold reality has left them standing around with their dicks in the wind trying their best to paint a pretty picture of a shitty sitaution.
I'm not a fan of his and I am the first to lay part (if not most) of the blame for the attacks of the Cole and 9/11 at his feet for his piss poor handling of the growing terrorist threat. But to extend it into Iraq is patently absurd. They knew BEFORE they went in there that they were short 4 divisions so the blame lies SQUARELY on Bush's shoulders.
They were living in fantasy land from the start of that war and cold reality has left them standing around with their dicks in the wind trying their best to paint a pretty picture of a shitty sitaution.
Wherever you go, there you are.
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I believe what Shep is saying, (not very well) is we have less options because of Clinton's cuts, coming on the heels of Bush 1's cuts.
It is not hindsight to show a stupid idea, brings problems, just like predicted. Clinton looked at a military, down to 2% body fat, and saw a fat man, like a bulemic. The crash diet has make us under weight, and under strength. I heared too many tales of mechanical cannibalism, to solve the spare parts shortages. Too many tales of not enough ammo to stay current at the range.
It is more of an "I told you so."
The solution to our manpower shortage will be to yank out our Balkland troops, and move them to Iraq.
Europe can then do everything the right way there, without the stupid evil imperialistic Americans there to fuck things up. (and foot the bill!)
It is not hindsight to show a stupid idea, brings problems, just like predicted. Clinton looked at a military, down to 2% body fat, and saw a fat man, like a bulemic. The crash diet has make us under weight, and under strength. I heared too many tales of mechanical cannibalism, to solve the spare parts shortages. Too many tales of not enough ammo to stay current at the range.
It is more of an "I told you so."
The solution to our manpower shortage will be to yank out our Balkland troops, and move them to Iraq.
Europe can then do everything the right way there, without the stupid evil imperialistic Americans there to fuck things up. (and foot the bill!)
Hmmmmmm.
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Ugh. Don't get me started.EmperorChrostas the Cruel wrote:I believe what Shep is saying, (not very well) is we have less options because of Clinton's cuts, coming on the heels of Bush 1's cuts.
We spent millions refurbishing the A-6E Intruder Fleet with new composite
wings, and then Clinton had them all pushed off the flightdecks to become
artificial reefs.
Or how we had a brand new airdroppable light tank mounting a 105mm gun
ready, the XM-8 Buford AGS, ready, and all set for production, and the Army
killed it to pay for Bosnia.
Or how he gave the Navy so little money, they ended up cannibalizing
the three conventional carriers, turning them into floating wrecks over
eight years.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Not everyone was expecting that. The problem is Bush sold that vision and the planning was fucked up because they worked from the first Gulf War as a basis ignoring the differences.BoredShirtless wrote:The Americans didn't really care about a post-war plan because they figured the Iraqi's would all fall into two groups, the Pants Pissers and the Flower Throwers. Clearly there's a third type, the Fighter.
- Stormbringer
- King of Democracy
- Posts: 22678
- Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm
Shep, like it or not that's the situation. The state of the military is what it is. Bush should have planned for the military he had, not the one he wished for. That's assuming he planned at all.
And if we didn't have the means to do it, and it's looking like we don't, he should have found a way around it. He didn't. That's Bush and you can't foist it off on Clinton.
And if we didn't have the means to do it, and it's looking like we don't, he should have found a way around it. He didn't. That's Bush and you can't foist it off on Clinton.
- Sea Skimmer
- Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
- Posts: 37390
- Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
- Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
No it wasn't, those plans called for 14 active divisions. The military and Cheney's plan for a post cold war military was far larger then what we ended up with. Andi t was to be poorerly funded for what it would retain, a concept alien to Clinton. Or do you wish to claim that inoperative shafts and catapults on deployed Carrier for lack of maintenance funding is a normal state of affairs? How about a near total lack of such basic items as training ammunition and radios for several years? US forces where killed in Afghanistan because equipment requested under Clintons defence budgets wasn't funded such as portable data links.Patrick Degan wrote:
Since there was no practical military reason in a post-Cold War world to maintain that level of troop strength (BTW which was laid down in the demobilisation plan outlined by Bush 41's defence secretary Dick Cheney and initiated in 1990).
Yes... naturally it's all the fault of the Evil Bill Clinton Monster that Junior knowingly took us into war woefully unprepared and then had no plan for what to do afterward.
Clintons defence cuts and wars and unfunded high opts tempos have harmed the readiness and combat strength of the US military on every level and the damage still isn't undone.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
- Iceberg
- ASVS Master of Laundry
- Posts: 4068
- Joined: 2002-07-03 11:23am
- Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
- Contact:
You still have yet to explain why Clinton's military cuts excuse Bush's failure to plan for his actual, as opposed to desired, military levels.
"Carriers dispense fighters, which dispense assbeatings." - White Haven
| Hyperactive Gundam Pilot of MM | GALE | ASVS | Cleaners | Kibologist (beable) | DFB |
If only one rock and roll song echoes into tomorrow
There won't be anything to keep you from the distant morning glow.
I'm not a man. I just portrayed one for 15 years.
| Hyperactive Gundam Pilot of MM | GALE | ASVS | Cleaners | Kibologist (beable) | DFB |
If only one rock and roll song echoes into tomorrow
There won't be anything to keep you from the distant morning glow.
I'm not a man. I just portrayed one for 15 years.