WWI Shotguns

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-04 03:19pm

I've read in several threads concerning banning of certain weapons that Germany pushed for banning shotguns in combat due to their experiences in WWI. Can anyone elaborate for me what those experiences were that the Germans felt they needed to lump shotguns in with such weapons as mustard gas and the like? I never even knew shotguns were used by Americans during the war and what kind of damage they could create that would make them so despised, why not simply equip your side with shotguns too?

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-09-04 03:34pm

The US used limited numbers of shotguns (pump action, I believe) in combat in WWI, during close range trench assaults. A shotgun has a lot of power and was easier to use at that range than a full rifle; a shotgun is also more intimidating at close range.

The Germans protested the use of shotguns against humans because of the uglier wound characteristics of buckshot. A rifle bullet of the day would generally pass completely through a person and carve out a fairly neat hole. Buckshot at close range would tear a large ragged cavity in a person, at longer range he would be painfully riddled, and it was somewhat difficult to extract that panopoly of metal bits from a wounded soldier (IIRC shotgun wounds are also more likely to become infected). They also thought it undignified to use a hunting implement as a weapon of war.

These criticisms are mostly bullshit. Shotguns have been used in limited numbers by the US military since WWI. From what I understand it is a good weapon for close combat because of it's power and the psychology of the weapon (the soldier using it know he has a gun that will royally fuck someone up at close range, so it encourages an aggressive posture--at least when he is close enough to use it effectively).

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-04 03:39pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote: These criticisms are mostly bullshit.

Completly really, they mainly attempted to aruge they where illegal under the ban on fragmenting bullets, but buckshot doesnt fragment on impact. I dont belive there was ever a case of them going through on there threat to hang any man captured with one.

Shotguns have been used in limited numbers by the US military since WWI. From what I understand it is a good weapon for close combat because of it's power and the psychology of the weapon (the soldier using it know he has a gun that will royally fuck someone up at close range, so it encourages an aggressive posture--at least when he is close enough to use it effectively).

Shotguns aren't used by the US Army outside of special forces that I'm aware of. The USMC does issue them to regular troops on a very limited scale, six per infantry battalion IIRC though theres a call to increase that considerabuly. The Marines have them mainly for breaching doors, which generally calls for slug ammo. Its generally much easier and quicker to shoot hinges and or a lock off then to place an explosive breaching charge which then requires you to get clear.

One other more recent useful and valued capability is firing nonlethal beanbags at personal. Though as I recall such rounds have also been produced and issued for 40mm grenade launchers.

Damaramu · Post by **Damaramu** » 2003-09-04 07:49pm

My dad carried a shotgun with him during Gulf War 1. I've got a cool photo of him over there, wielding the shotgun.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-09-04 08:35pm

Germany shouldn't really be complaining when they didn't follow the rules of engagement for submarines... They were supposed to sneak up on another ship, surface, then tell them. And the crew was supposed to get onto lifeboats, then the sub would sink the ship...

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-09-04 08:49pm

Exonerate wrote:Germany shouldn't really be complaining when they didn't follow the rules of engagement for submarines... They were supposed to sneak up on another ship, surface, then tell them. And the crew was supposed to get onto lifeboats, then the sub would sink the ship...

The use of "Q" ships by the British made following commerce warfare rules dangerous in the extreme.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-04 09:03pm

Frank Hipper wrote:The use of "Q" ships by the British made following commerce warfare rules dangerous in the extreme.

The British also made use of there own submarines attached by a long telephone cabal to unarmed trawlers, so that if a U-boat came by to sink the craft it could be ambushed by the sub. Under such circumstances the British really where giving up the protection there commerce would have had under the old laws of cruiser warfare. Since under those laws warships where suppose to openly carry there arms.

And check PM's Hipper.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-09-04 09:08pm

The main shotgun used by the US Military from WW1 until after WW2 was the Winchester Model 1897 Pump Action Shotgun in 12 Gauge. The major differences in the Military Model 97 and the Civilian model were the addition of an upper hand guard and a bayonet mount. One of the most intriguing features for the military is the Model 97's ability to fire 'semi-auto'. By holding the trigger down in the Model 97 as you pump the action, it will fire every time the action is pumped, so, as long as you have the trigger down, it will fire every time the action is cycled, as fast as you can cycle the action, which is pretty damn fast. Another boon to the popularity of the Model 97 is it's sheer durability. As I said, they were in use from WW1 to well past WW2, I am sure that there were some still in service up through probably the middle of the Vietnam War. Currently, the military uses a combination of Benelli M2 Semi-automatic shotguns, Mossberg Model 500 (I think...) semi-auto shotguns, and some other's, I believe.

The reasons for this were because of the sheer damage a shotgun will do to a man at close range. You are throwing out 300-500 small pellets at incredible speeds when using something like 6 or 7 shot (the higher the number, the smaller the shot size), which will blow a hole in a man, as opposed to a FMJ round which will just 'punch' through, not causing much trauma in the target. But, then you have 00 buckshot, which is composed of a few .32 caliber balls being fired at once, which has quite a devestating effect.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-09-04 09:36pm

Nathan F wrote:The main shotgun used by the US Military from WW1 until after WW2 was the Winchester Model 1897 Pump Action Shotgun in 12 Gauge. The major differences in the Military Model 97 and the Civilian model were the addition of an upper hand guard and a bayonet mount. One of the most intriguing features for the military is the Model 97's ability to fire 'semi-auto'. By holding the trigger down in the Model 97 as you pump the action, it will fire every time the action is pumped, so, as long as you have the trigger down, it will fire every time the action is cycled, as fast as you can cycle the action, which is pretty damn fast. Another boon to the popularity of the Model 97 is it's sheer durability. As I said, they were in use from WW1 to well past WW2, I am sure that there were some still in service up through probably the middle of the Vietnam War. Currently, the military uses a combination of Benelli M2 Semi-automatic shotguns, Mossberg Model 500 (I think...) semi-auto shotguns, and some other's, I believe.

The reasons for this were because of the sheer damage a shotgun will do to a man at close range. You are throwing out 300-500 small pellets at incredible speeds when using something like 6 or 7 shot (the higher the number, the smaller the shot size), which will blow a hole in a man, as opposed to a FMJ round which will just 'punch' through, not causing much trauma in the target. But, then you have 00 buckshot, which is composed of a few .32 caliber balls being fired at once, which has quite a devestating effect.

you'd THINK the US army didn't use those model 1897's But they DO! At least cicra 1999 they DID. I myself, as an MP was issued one every time we did riot/crowd control. (such is the psychological effect of an even UNLOADED shotgun. Yep, I loved my old winchester. That bad boy entered service during Vietnam (According to my squad leader {I guess he could tell by serial number?} but GOD DAMN That thing had a kick....but it was LIGHT. when I had that thing in my hand I WAS THE MASTAH!!! DON'T LIKE HOW I LOOK AT YOU?!
BLOW!
NOW WATCHA THINK, FOO?!?
Ahh to be young and stupid again....

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-09-04 10:15pm

Chardok wrote:you'd THINK the US army didn't use those model 1897's But they DO! At least cicra 1999 they DID. I myself, as an MP was issued one every time we did riot/crowd control. (such is the psychological effect of an even UNLOADED shotgun. Yep, I loved my old winchester. That bad boy entered service during Vietnam (According to my squad leader {I guess he could tell by serial number?} but GOD DAMN That thing had a kick....but it was LIGHT. when I had that thing in my hand I WAS THE MASTAH!!! DON'T LIKE HOW I LOOK AT YOU?!
BLOW!
NOW WATCHA THINK, FOO?!?
Ahh to be young and stupid again....

Not surprising, actually. Like I said, the good ol' 97 is a wonderful, reliable, and durable weapon. I have shot a civilian one a few times, and they are great shooting shotguns. Is this a Nat'l Guard unit you were in, or regular Army?

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-09-04 10:55pm

*Considers putting Winchester 1897 on 'Firearm Collection Wishlist: Winchester Shotguns', right next to Model '87 lever-action and Model 1300 Defender 8-shot*

Damn, I'd consider putting some non-Wnchesters on that list if I wasn't so satisfied with their firearms in general.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-09-04 11:22pm

A shotgun would be quite a nice weapon to have.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-09-04 11:57pm

Ive seen Marine MP's carry them for guard duty of both POW's and Navy Bases. In close quarters it can be an effective weapon. Speaking of WWI I recently saw a painting of a Marine guarding mail on a train from WWI. I think it was in one of the Navy or Marine Journals.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-09-05 01:56am

speaking of shotgun I hear there was a lever action shotgun before pump action came out

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-09-05 02:03am

Typhonis 1 wrote:speaking of shotgun I hear there was a lever action shotgun before pump action came out

See my post above. The Winchester Model 1887 was a 12-guage lever-action shotgun (a modified version is noably featured in Terminator 2).

A company (I forget the name, 'Triarms' or something) recently started making a version of the '87 based and scaled down from a later 10-guage version of the original. I should keep my eyes peeled for that.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2003-09-05 02:57am

and Model 1300 Defender 8-shot*

I got one of those.

Pic #1
Pic #2

Plastic furniture and the finish (internally and externally) is Robar's nickel/teflon NP3.

The finish cost more than the damn gun.