Kindred vs. Jedi

FireNexus · Post by **FireNexus** » 2003-09-02 11:32pm

How many Kindred, or how powerful a Kindred, would be required to defeat an average Jedi as of TPM?

Discuss.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-09-03 01:33am

FireNexus wrote:How many Kindred, or how powerful a Kindred, would be required to defeat an average Jedi as of TPM?

Discuss.

Ahem, this belongs in Fantasy.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-03 03:00am

Define "average" - Are we talking Padawan, Knight or Master?

It also depends on abilities.

FireNexus · Post by **FireNexus** » 2003-09-03 06:29am

I was thinking Knight. And as far as this belonging in Fantasy, I'll be damned, it does, didn't think of it.

I wonder, though, how a Jedi would react to a discipline like Dementia or Obfuscate, or if it would effect them at all.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-09-03 11:07am

What's a Kindred?

FireNexus · Post by **FireNexus** » 2003-09-03 11:19am

Kindred are Vampires from the World of Darkness RPG Vampire: The Masquerade. Actually, "New Orleans by Night" in Fanfics was VTM. They pretty much control the entire world, and are quite powerful.

Superhuman strength, agility, speed, enhanced healing factor. Then, of course, there are the disciplines. Using the power of the blood they consume, Kindred can do lots of interesting things. Causing insanity, disappearing, looking like someone else, tremendously increased healing factor (even above the already enhanced vampire healing) incredible fortitude, etc.

Based on what I know of Kindred and what I know of Jedi, I would imagine that a Jedi/Kindred battle would be an interesting fight.

Agent R · Post by **Agent R** » 2003-09-03 09:23pm

Would the Jedi have a lightsaber?

Also, can anyone point me to a place where I can get info on The Masquerade? I know a little but my knowledge of the Disciplines is a bit rusty.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-03 09:28pm

What clan and what sort of Jedi? That makes a huge difference.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-04 12:06am

Offhand, I'd say that even an average Jedi Knight probably outclasses anything short of a Methuselah or Antediluvian (who have other powers at their disposal that make them trickier, which I believe can include thaumaturgy.)

A high end elder (or a handful of lower end ones)) MIGHT be enough to overwhelm a Jedi. Anything below Elder is probably not going going to stand a chance unless they have overwhelming firepower (IE submachine guns/assault rifles), or huge numbers hand to hand. Say maybe a dozen or so of the younger generations armed with high-end firearms.

Tatterdemalion · Post by **Tatterdemalion** » 2003-09-04 12:32am

As has been said before, what type of Kindred? Thatn affects the battle a great deal. In a straight up combat against a relitively young vampire the Jedi would win pretty much every time (Especially since a light sabre would probably do aggravated damage due to the heat). However if you factor in non-combat disciplines like Dominate, Presence, Obfuscate, Dementate and the like the results could be vary wildly depending on the Jedi's resistance to mindcontrol. (I assume Jedi's would have a pretty good resistence though, since they never seem to try mind-tricking each other.)

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-09-04 05:01pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Offhand, I'd say that even an average Jedi Knight probably outclasses anything short of a Methuselah or Antediluvian (who have other powers at their disposal that make them trickier, which I believe can include thaumaturgy.)

Trickier? To kill Ravnos (An antideluvian) the entire Technocracy had to get together, they were doing a spell, dropped a couple nukes on him, and hit him with four suns. Ravnos had the ability to create an alternate reality and stuff a person in it.

Trickier...is not the word I would use.

A high end elder (or a handful of lower end ones)) MIGHT be enough to overwhelm a Jedi. Anything below Elder is probably not going going to stand a chance unless they have overwhelming firepower (IE submachine guns/assault rifles), or huge numbers hand to hand. Say maybe a dozen or so of the younger generations armed with high-end firearms.

I'd say a few elders could probably pull it off but it wouldn't be a pretty end for some of them. Some of the abilitys get pretty sick, even when they just get into 6th or 7th level, so a few elders could do it, with a few casualties. Below that it'll be tricky to say.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-04 05:19pm

Just to give some people a clue as to how obscenely powerful the methuselah level and higher disciplines are, High levels of Obfuscate allow you to disappear before someone's eyes and be invisible, their minds will refuse to acknowledge your presence unless attacked and then there's there's the one that allows you to vanish from the very pages of history. Your presence will never be remembered.

For Presence you essentially dominate someone to be your slave, at the highest levels entire cities are your adoring throngs.

For Dominate you can actuallty possess the body of another and use it like a puppet.

Celerity, something akin to supersonic speed.

Potence - you can lift trucks

Fortitude - you become immune to the sun (for short periods of time) and take on the consistency of granite rock.

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I look in the books I'll find more insanely powerful uses for the high level disciplines. For the Antedeluvians, the area of effect is most often cities or nations. For instance, Malkav slumbers beneath the ME and his dreams 'leak' into the minds of mortals in the ME causing them to be even more violent and insane.

Antedeluvians are gods that can usually only be killed if they want to be killed (According to the rules) Ravnos, not a warrrior Antedullvian, was able to create entire realities and in the end was brought down by the follwoing:

2 Nuclear detonations, extended battle with several Eastern Kindred methesulahs, a werewolf pack and was finally only put down by intensified sunlight that battered down on him from Technocrat sattelites that reflected and intensified the sun.

His awakening affected an entire region of the world, he created a monsoon that flooded all of Bangladesh and killed thousands and his death throes extended throughout the world killing the vast majority of his childer.

Antedeluvians are not to be fucked with.

That said a padawan would hand a neonate kindred his ass. Elders might be able to beat padawans through use of sheer will, such as Presence and Dominate. The higher up in the generations you go, the more trouble your average padawan would have. (The lightsaber would be a DEVASTATING weapon to use against the kindred) By the seventh or sixth generation you would need a knight to stand up to the higher displines. A methesulah would require a Jedi master.

FireNexus · Post by **FireNexus** » 2003-09-04 08:43pm

For the record, my interest in the subject was sparked because I've begun DLing and skimming all the clanbooks and other WoD game core books. I think I might start buying novels soon, because the WoD is starting to fascinate me more and more, what with the end of the world coming and all.

As far as my thoughts on the battle, after reading more about the Kindred, are this: It depends on how the Disciplines, and the Kindred themselves, effect the force.

I would imagine, based on their abilities and the idea of "The Beast" that the kindred would, in SW terms, be sustained by the dark side, making them huge beacons to the force, and not immune to its effects. (I understand that there's no evidence for it, but the two ideas fit fairly well together) That said, I would think it would take a quite powerful Jedi to take down a Methuselah-level Kindred (Though I'm sure a knight could easily take an ancillae or neonate), and it would probably take an ARMY of Jedi to take down an antediluvian or Caine.

An interesting question, and another wild card in this fight: How resistant would a Jedi be against mind disciplines like Obfuscate or Dementia. Hell, with Dementia, one could quite possibly cause a Jedi to fall to the dark side. Okay, my ramblings on the subject end now.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-05 04:27am

Captain_Cyran wrote: Trickier? To kill Ravnos (An antideluvian) the entire Technocracy had to get together, they were doing a spell, dropped a couple nukes on him, and hit him with four suns. Ravnos had the ability to create an alternate reality and stuff a person in it.

Uh, according to Time of Thin Blood, the Technocracy tried redirecting sunlight on the vampires (which a Cathayan Bodhisattva was using a Typhoon to block - there were three such fighting Ravnos.), and then only dropped nukes (at least 3, but probably alot more) - neutron bombs really (IIRC radiation inflicts aggravated damage on supernatural, does it not?) The stated "range" of the blast was kilometers, and the bombs were "airbursts", but only ~65,000 people were killed in Bangladesh (the place where the bombs went off.) - And we should note that over 1.3 million actually died as a result of the battle (including nearly twice the number of Bangladeshi at least...)

that *might* indicate megaton-range nukes total (we dont know how many missiles exactly.. at least 3, but probably more) - but it could actually be low kiloton range conceivably. And the range appears to be at least tens or hundreds, if not thousands, of meters away from the target (meaning that each combatant actually absorbed only a fraction of the actual energy.)

At a range of 5 km (it was "many" kilometers, suggesting it was alot more than 2-3..) with a 20 megaton nuke (possible, but probably generous given the limited damage effects, even sub-megaton nukes can cause mult-km "radiation damage"), you get an intensity of ~266 MJ per square meter.

Assuming 2 meters tall and 1 meter wide (grossly generous figures), Ravnos might have absorbed a total of around 532 joules of energy, roughly. If a dozen such nukes went off, he absorbed about 6.4 Gigajoules worth of energy, total, over his entire body (which is further generous because the bombs were not dropped all at once.) We could probably skew the figures to bigger values, but the limited loss of bangladeshi life tends to suggest the nukes were not that destructive (Being ERW's does help limit physical damage, thoguh) -

This is not neccesarily beyond Jedi abilities, though - since blasters and lightsabers themselves are worth tens or hundreds of MJ easily low end - and have a much higher intensity because they deliver the energy in a much smaller area than the nuke (more like square centimeters or millimeters even rather than square meters.)

IF this is questioned, I can post relevant quotes regarding Ravnos.

I'd say a few elders could probably pull it off but it wouldn't be a pretty end for some of them. Some of the abilitys get pretty sick, even when they just get into 6th or 7th level, so a few elders could do it, with a few casualties. Below that it'll be tricky to say.

Well, I'm not much interested in arguing the mental aspect (Except maybe for Master and above - I could be wrong, but simultaneously controlling tens of thousands of minds at once without substantial effort would be far beyond any Elder), but physically its probably more of a match, depending on Jedi abilities and strength (A powerful TK like Obi-Wan or Anakin might be able to waste even Elders without much effort. A relatively weak Padawan like Darsha Assant probably wouldn't be much of a match period.)

The whole bit about firepower was a nod towards Geonosis. 200 Jedi vs "thousands" o fbattle droids - with a weapon of similar or greater fire rate to the blasters, its quite possible to "saturate" the Jedi with fire and kill him.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-05 04:43am

Stravo wrote:Just to give some people a clue as to how obscenely powerful the methuselah level and higher disciplines are,

High levels of Obfuscate allow you to disappear before someone's eyes and be invisible, their minds will refuse to acknowledge your presence unless attacked and then there's there's the one that allows you to vanish from the very pages of history. Your presence will never be remembered.
"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." The question is whether a Methuselah can be hidden from precognition or other detection methods by this as well.

For Presence you essentially dominate someone to be your slave, at the highest levels entire cities are your adoring throngs.
Suggesting abilities comparable or greater than the strongest jedi, depending on who you use (IE C'Baoth to Palaptine level)

For Dominate you can actuallty possess the body of another and use it like a puppet.
Jedi Masters at least can do this as well. (C'Baoth as mentioned exerted influence over an entire Star Destroyer all at once.)

Celerity, something akin to supersonic speed.
I dont recall anything indicating Celerity generated sonic booms. Although as I recall, it imparts very little force to objects at all unless you have a relevant discipline (for example, swinging a weapon while celerity is active does not increase the overall damage the weapon does) so we may be seeing a "trick" used to increase speed - the "Temporis" discipline of the True Brujah waas supposed to be related to Celerity, IIRC.

Potence - you can lift trucks
Something ladyTevar mentioned. What is the source on this, exactly?

(Trucks would be many tons or tens of tons probably... not bad.. but in terms of raw PK I have yet to see an example remotely comparable to what we know Jedi can do.)

Fortitude - you become immune to the sun (for short periods of time) and take on the consistency of granite rock.
Granite is not super-tough.

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I look in the books I'll find more insanely powerful uses for the high level disciplines. For the Antedeluvians, the area of effect is most often cities or nations. For instance, Malkav slumbers beneath the ME and his dreams 'leak' into the minds of mortals in the ME causing them to be even more violent and insane.
Be my guest. I welcome more information.

Antedeluvians are gods that can usually only be killed if they want to be killed (According to the rules) Ravnos, not a warrrior Antedullvian, was able to create entire realities and in the end was brought down by the follwoing:

2 Nuclear detonations,
As I pointed out to Cyran, it was more than just 2 (only 2 detonated near the Iron Crysanthanum, which didnt faze her much) others detonated around Ravnos and the Kuei-Jin Bodhisattvas, but at a distnace of kilometrs IIRC.

These DID injure him (fucked up his arm rather well, and he was in pain), but not severely. The intensity of even a 20 megatn nuke at a distance of kilometers is, as I pointed out above, nothing compared ot a blaster bolt or a lightsaber, though.

extended battle with several Eastern Kindred methesulahs,
three of the most ancient and powerful Cathayans I believe, although this is questioanble since Arhats IIRC are stronger than Bodhisattvas.

a werewolf pack
They didnt fight Ravnos directly IIRC, and ended up getting massacred by the Chimestry discipline.

and was finally only put down by intensified sunlight that battered down on him from Technocrat sattelites that reflected and intensified the sun.
And after a day of fighting the three Cathayans and the nuclear assault.

His awakening affected an entire region of the world, he created a monsoon that flooded all of Bangladesh and killed thousands
the monsoon killed 115,000. Nearly a million and a half died from the entire incident, IIRC.

and his death throes extended throughout the world killing the vast majority of his childer.
Yep.

Antedeluvians are not to be fucked with.
Powerful yes, but not nearly the "godlike beings" either. As the Ravnos example demonstrated, it IS possible to overcome even an Ante with enough raw power.

That said a padawan would hand a neonate kindred his ass.
Agreed.

Elders might be able to beat padawans through use of sheer will, such as Presence and Dominate.
Depends on the Padawan. Some are in fact kinda low end (one EU PAdawan could o nly use the Force to jump twice her own body height) and then there are examples like Obi-Wan or anakin

The higher up in the generations you go, the more trouble your average padawan would have. (The lightsaber would be a DEVASTATING weapon to use against the kindred) By the seventh or sixth generation you would need a knight to stand up to the higher displines. A methesulah would require a Jedi master.

Pretty much what I was thinking. Though someone like Yoda or Mace Windu (esp Mace, who would be shown how to kill a vampire t hrough the Force - ref. Shatterpoint) could probably cause trouble for an Ante.

And Palpatine is, IMHO, overkill. One Force Storm and you can kiss mr Kindred goodbye.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-05 04:48am

FireNexus wrote: I would imagine, based on their abilities and the idea of "The Beast" that the kindred would, in SW terms, be sustained by the dark side, making them huge beacons to the force, and not immune to its effects. (I understand that there's no evidence for it, but the two ideas fit fairly well together) That said, I would think it would take a quite powerful Jedi to take down a Methuselah-level Kindred (Though I'm sure a knight could easily take an ancillae or neonate), and it would probably take an ARMY of Jedi to take down an antediluvian or Caine.

Depends on the Jedi insofar as an Ante goes. Yoda's abilities would be just insane (We're talking hundreds of thousands or millions or more newtons worth of force generated without significant efforts, GJ range energy handling abilities or more, precognition, and a number of other toasty-fun abilities.)

Caine is debatable, what with that whole "curse of God" thing and the impression that he is not only far above Antes in capability, but that he can basically whip up whole disciplines at will. Palpy might be able to match him with Force Storm and such, althoguh then we come up to what would happen regarding that "curse of God" bit.

An interesting question, and another wild card in this fight: How resistant would a Jedi be against mind disciplines like Obfuscate or Dementia. Hell, with Dementia, one could quite possibly cause a Jedi to fall to the dark side. Okay, my ramblings on the subject end now.

Mental aspects should be avoided because they are more difficult to quantify (Although being quite similar.) However, the higher end mind discipliens appear comparable to higher end Jedi Mind control - city controlling Presence could conceivably be comparable to what Palpy can do.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-09-05 05:27am

What we have to remember, Connor, is that Kuei-Jin are essentially Cainite-killers. Some of their disciplines allow a low- to middle-range Kuei-Jin to deliver heaps of Aggravated upon a given foe, on the order of ten times that of a typical Cainite (or at least, that has been my impression. I do not personally own any of the KotE books). Of course, they lack the staying power of the average Cainite, but I would wager their assault was the deciding factor.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-05 05:59am

Eleas wrote:What we have to remember, Connor, is that Kuei-Jin are essentially Cainite-killers. Some of their disciplines allow a low- to middle-range Kuei-Jin to deliver heaps of Aggravated upon a given foe, on the order of ten times that of a typical Cainite (or at least, that has been my impression. I do not personally own any of the KotE books). Of course, they lack the staying power of the average Cainite, but I would wager their assault was the deciding factor.

True, but I think its also significant that (I may have to double check this, so don't quote me

) that the Bodhisattvas were wiped out by the Technocracy's nukes, and the battle did not appear to involve any substantially noticable energy outputs (well, they could have been low energy/high momentum type attacks, or telekinetic, so that doesn't neccearily say anything.)

Anyhow, its not the overall endurance that I'm interested in so much as the intensity involved - as that shows what CAN affect an Ante - but the energy input can help some because it does establish a rough idea of their energy handling abilities to within an order of magnitude or two.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-09-05 06:08am

Connor MacLeod wrote: True, but I think its also significant that (I may have to double check this, so don't quote me ) that the Bodhisattvas were wiped out by the Technocracy's nukes, and the battle did not appear to involve any substantially noticable energy outputs (well, they could have been low energy/high momentum type attacks, or telekinetic, so that doesn't neccearily say anything.)

Lacking most of these supplements, I think I'll just spout some authoritative-sounding nonsense and withdraw.

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2003-09-05 12:57pm

I will not go for this Ravnos because it was a big screw up of World of Darkness, Justin Achilli just killed the game as it is dying now with that stupyd way to kill an Ante and Technocracy acting like crazy...
but the lift a truck thing...

Go and look in "Feats of Strength" in one of the books. There you will see that even a mortal (therefore any jedi) can lift one truck - You just need to have 5 dots in strength and 10 sucess in a Willpower roll for example. But is very hard. Since Potence are just extra dots in strength , a kindred with 5 of strength and 10 of potence, would not need to sucess to throw a truck (not just lift).
Good example is the Enkidu (Kindred Most Wanted), He had 8 of potence and 9 of strength (something like this,My memory may fail and he had one less dot there) ,then he would need not much effort to throw a truck, but then, he is exactly a 4th generation and so far the strongest Physically wise vampire i have seen made (of course, after 3th edition i just stopped following the vampire line...)

Tatterdemalion · Post by **Tatterdemalion** » 2003-09-05 01:39pm

I will not go for this Ravnos because it was a big screw up of World of Darkness, Justin Achilli just killed the game as it is dying now with that stupyd way to kill an Ante and Technocracy acting like crazy...

Sort of the whole point really: http://www.timeofjudgement.com

Personally I love revised edition, though admitedly I never actually played second. I don't see what made second so great in any case.

Anyone back on topic:

Since everyone seems in agreement that Yoda or Palpy could take on an Ante let me just say... Vicissitude 10!!!!!!!111one *fanwanks*

Invulnerable antes aside, are we going to set a standard for the combatants or just continue posting power stats till one side gets bored and lets the other win?

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 2003-09-05 01:39pm

It might also be useful to look at in-game rules structures, vis-a-vis Cainite Resilience.

By my best recollection, the damage dice pool of a modern MBT is 20 dice. We will assume a reasonably accurate, well-placed, undoged shot... call it 5 successes to-hit, for a roll over of 4 damage.

24 damage dice.

We will assume an Elder Gangrel who has maximized his in-clan disciplines. Flesh of Marble will cut the damage dice pool to 12 dice. An average roll will deal 6 Health Levels of Damage. The 6 Fortitude will soak 3 of these, for a final hit of 3 HLs, Aggravated. (I am treating the 120mm APFSDS round as Aggravated due to the heated state of the penetrator round.)

3 Health Levels is sufficient to wound, but not in and of itself kill, such a cainite. A second round would place him greviously injured, and a third would kill.

If someone here who knows more physics than I do could figure out the energy transfer of the round, and compare/contrast with the energy transfer of a lightsaber, we could get somewhere.

For those who arent that familiar with the world system... the above gangrel represents the near maximum resilience available to a 7th generation cainite. 7th Generation represents a midrange elder. A hypothetical 5th Generation Cainite with the proper disciplines to reflect physical resilience could reliably thumb his nose at almost any modern weaponry.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-05 01:41pm

This depends heavily on the round used. A HEAT round, if I remember right, is mostly a kinetic penetrator, and would indicate ridiculous potential against G forces and penetration(Rather like my Aberrant who got flung around by tank fire). A HESH, again, if I'm right, is thermal.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-05 02:22pm

All this is fine, until Brujah appears out of nowhere, checks his watch to find he's about 5 seconds early to watch Cain reappear and use Thaumissitude 10 to make all Jedi everywhere turn into flaming mutated skeletons.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-09-05 04:32pm

lgot wrote:I will not go for this Ravnos because it was a big screw up of World of Darkness, Justin Achilli just killed the game as it is dying now with that stupyd way to kill an Ante and Technocracy acting like crazy...
but the lift a truck thing...

Actually, I think surviving multiple nuclear bombardments even at kilometers of range after having fought three of the most powerful Kuei-Jin (reputedly) for over a day, during the daytime, is *quite* impressive, especialyl when the nuclear attack at most just mangles your arm.

And the Ante hasn't even *fed* yet.... so I suppose I'm overestimating things somewhat. But still, I wouldn't imagine he'd be many orders of magnitude more resistant.

Go and look in "Feats of Strength" in one of the books. There you will see that even a mortal (therefore any jedi) can lift one truck - You just need to have 5 dots in strength and 10 sucess in a Willpower roll for example. But is very hard. Since Potence are just extra dots in strength , a kindred with 5 of strength and 10 of potence, would not need to sucess to throw a truck (not just lift).

Depends on how you mean "lifting" - the books I've all seen place the lifting capability (presumably "above the head") at 650 pounds for 5 dots of strength. This is 8-10 times *less* the weight than what lifting a car over your head requires. 650 pounds is roughly 300 kgs of weight.

You might be able to lift one end of the truck, but unless you have the source, I'd be less inclined to believe the claim.

Good example is the Enkidu (Kindred Most Wanted), He had 8 of potence and 9 of strength (something like this,My memory may fail and he had one less dot there) ,then he would need not much effort to throw a truck, but then, he is exactly a 4th generation and so far the strongest Physically wise vampire i have seen made (of course, after 3th edition i just stopped following the vampire line...)

Er, so?

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Kindred vs. Jedi

Kindred vs. Jedi

Re: Kindred vs. Jedi