After finally seeing "Bowling for Columbine" ...

[Joe]

Oh, most Americans also always have their doors locked at night. Is it this way in Sweden?

[Darth Wong]

Except that the "something else" in question is mythical. I've seen the ENTIRE transcript of Heston's speech, and it gives me the exact same impression that Moore's abbreviated version does.

It gives you the exact same impression Mike. But does it give most other viewers that impresion? <snip quotes from film critics>

So? There were lots of people who thought "Black Hawk Down" was racially motivated, for fuck's sake. The question is whether it is a reasonable inference.

Let's not forget something here. Before you ever saw this film, you read a great deal about it right here on this board.

OK, I'll ask my wife to watch it (she does not read this board, nor have we ever discussed the film) and see what she thinks.

Mike, you've argued that only idiots would think the NRA planned this meeting in response to the Columbine tragedy - that my objection is based only on what "some idiot", who "interpreted it in an entirely unreasonable fashion" thinks. Well it's not. My objection is based on what impression the typical viewer is likely to carry away after seeing this film - especially if he/she is unaware of the facts of the matter. It's a false and misleading impression carefully induced by Michael Moore.

How is it misleading? If it's misleading to leave viewers with the impression that Heston is insensitive to the parents' feelings, then please give me the evidence that he WAS sensitive. The full text of the speech doesn't give me that evidence; it only gives evidence that he views them as a public-relations problem.

Why didn't Heston apologize for the bad timing of the meeting? If he didn't apologize, why shouldn't I interpret his actions and his speech to indicate that he views it as nothing more than a public-relations issue and a prelude to another assault on his rights, which is what Moore was trying to say?

This is just a selection of reviews I found in a quick, 20 minute search. There were lots of other reviews that said nothing about the Denver meeting. But any review that treated the subject in depth, and mentioned the Denver meeting at all, invariably made it clear that the reviewer thought the NRA had planned the meeting after the tragedy, as though to take advantage of the event for publicity.

Even some of your own quotes do not make it clear that the critic thinks the NRA actually planned the meeting during the 10 days after the tragedy. You are reading that into them.

Appeal to emotion is a fallacy. You don't hesitate to call people on that sort of thing when they do it on this board. Yet when Michael Moore does it, and we point out that that's what he's doing, you tell us we're nitpicking.

Yes, because it has nothing to do with the point he's trying to make. You could be completely right and it would still be nitpicking, because his documentary is about the "culture of fear", not "is Heston sufficiently sensitive" (although I've seen the full transcript and reiterate that he's not).

[Dahak]

Your neighbors will just walk in without knocking?

As for locking the doors, I guess it depends on where you live. Old people tend to keep their doors locked almost without exception, however.

No they ring the doorbell If I don't open the door they try it and see if it is open.

You can open your door from the outside without the key???

[Nathan F]

Your neighbors will just walk in without knocking?

As for locking the doors, I guess it depends on where you live. Old people tend to keep their doors locked almost without exception, however.

No they ring the doorbell If I don't open the door they try it and see if it is open.

You can open your door from the outside without the key???

Uhm, if a door is unlocked, it is quite easy to open it without a key.

[Batman]

You can open your door from the outside without the key???

Uhm, if a door is unlocked, it is quite easy to open it without a key.

Just because a door is unlocked doesn't mean you can simply push it open.
You usually still have to use the handle. Which is something external doors tend to not have on the outside, at least here in Germany.

[MKSheppard]

Which is something external doors tend to not have on the outside, at least here in Germany.

So you have a culture of fear too

[Batman]

Which is something external doors tend to not have on the outside, at least here in Germany.

So you have a culture of fear too

Propably true to some extend. I'd wager the number of people dying from not being able to open a door they have no business opening in the first place is reasonably low, though.

[Dahak]

Which is something external doors tend to not have on the outside, at least here in Germany.

So you have a culture of fear too

No, we have a culture of common sense.
We do not fear. But we treasure our private sphere. And open doors tend to negate that a bit.
And if you should have the unfortunate incident of a robbery happening in your home, and your door is unlocked, the insurance company will laugh you in the face

[Dahak]

You can open your door from the outside without the key???

Uhm, if a door is unlocked, it is quite easy to open it without a key.

Just because a door is unlocked doesn't mean you can simply push it open.
You usually still have to use the handle. Which is something external doors tend to not have on the outside, at least here in Germany.

In fact, I don't know anyone whose door has a handle on the outside...

[Darth Wong]

Which is something external doors tend to not have on the outside, at least here in Germany.

So you have a culture of fear too

It's all relative. You should really try watching television somewhere other than the US; American TV has achieved some kind of mastery of fearmongering that is unmatched anywhere else. And this was true before 9/11.

[Perinquus]

Yes, because it has nothing to do with the point he's trying to make. You could be completely right and it would still be nitpicking, because his documentary is about the "culture of fear", not "is Heston sufficiently sensitive" (although I've seen the full transcript and reiterate that he's not).

(I've got to get to work, so I've no time for more than quick word in reply for the moment.)

True, the NRA segment is only a small part of the film, but the treatment Moore gives it is calculated to turn people's opinions against the NRA, and I believe there is a different result than there would be if people got all the facts. For example, if people were inofrmed the NRA had scheduled that Denver meeting far in advance, they'd say: "Well... Okay, I guess I can see why they had to go ahead and have the meeting. And at least that cancelled most of their festivities out of respect. But Heston sure could have been a bit more sensitive".

But they are left thinking that the NRA took the opportunity to come to Denver in the wake of the massacre, and they then think: "God! What a bunch of ASSHOLES! How dare they!?!"

There's a significant difference between thinking that Heston and the NRA could be a more sensitive, and thinking that they are a bunch of cold-hearted, opportunistic bastards.

[Perinquus]

True, the NRA segment is only a small part of the film

Actually, moore's entire film is shot full of lies and misrepresentations.

Funny how you people harp on incessantly about this segment, then, for which your only legitimate complaint is one of mere innuendo.

Well, actually there's more in the film that is really not documentary-making, but propagandizing; it's merely that we've become focused on this segment. There's staging the gun-award scene in the bank. Reporting the Lockheed-Martin plant as making WMDs when they actually make satellite launch systems, etc.

Face it, Moore does not report the facts in anything close to an objective manner. He doesn't even try to. That's my complaint with him. He accepted an oscar for documentary making, and the Academy stamped its imprimatur on the piece, and there may be quite a number of people who sit down to watch the film thinking it is a more or less factual documentary. It's not; it's a propaganda piece. Everything is spin-doctored.

(Now I really do have to get to work.)

[Hamel]

Wow, this is a damn Grade A flamefest...

Yeah, I have a bad feeling

[MKSheppard]

Since we seem to be so focused on Columbine, and the NRA's "snub", how
about Moore's own snub?

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/News/9906/09/showbuzz/

Bravo drops Michael Moore segment on 'teen sniper school'

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Filmmaker Michael Moore's satire about a "teen sniper school" won't air this week. The Bravo cable network is worried about public reaction after the Columbine High School shooting.

The four-minute segment for Moore's weekly series, "The Awful Truth," was scheduled to run Sunday. It had been made five months prior to the shooting in Colorado that killed 15 people in April.

Moore said his satire takes easy access to guns to the "logical extreme," by teaching children to be better shots as part of the curriculum.

While Bravo says it didn't have a problem with the content, it deemed the timing was inappropriate, spokeswoman Sommer Hixson said Tuesday.

"We're hoping after some time goes by, the original intent of the satire will be more clear to viewers," she said.

There's no telling whether the segment will ever air. The season's last episode of "The Awful Truth" is slated for June 27, and Bravo hasn't decided whether to renew it.

[Darth Wong]

BTW, that's not to say Moore isn't nuts. I saw the bit about him returning bullets to K-Mart with some Columbine victims and lobbying them to stop selling ammunition, and I'll be the first to say that it was a ridiculous stunt and completely stupid.

But BFC has been unfairly lambasted and its flaws magnified grossly out of proportion, by people who react hypersensitively to anything which involves guns.

[Nathan F]

Agreed, but that does not null the fact that the statements are still there, and are a big part of the movie. I find this to be disconcerting, and don't see pointing these statements out as nitpicking, by your definition.

Have you watched the movie? You're talking about a segment which lasts for what, 30 seconds?

How is the implication that Heston didn't care about the sentiments of Columbine parents (an implication that, quite frankly, I have not seen disproven) a major part of the film? He spends more time talking about welfare than he does about Heston.

Yes, I have seen the movie. But, there is that, what, 5 minute cartoon, the speech statements, etc. It has been a while since I have seen the movie, so I am just going on what I remember. We both agree that there is something wrong that needs to be corrected when it comes to violence, but, we also disagree that he is unfairly showing various groups in a bad light, a light which many uninformed people are using to illuminate their views on these certain groups.

[Bob McDob]

I haven't seen BFC, but really, I don't understand why everyone is getting so riled up about this. I mean, is it even possible for a "documentary" to be completely objective? It's not like someone should be surprised that Moore lets his biases take control of the film, but shouldn't people be on guard for that sort of thing?

As for the Oscars, the Oscars suck.

[Superman]

Well, I know why Heston is such a gun advocate... After what he had to go through battling those dirty apes, you would be too!

[Colonel Olrik]

Thread restored to politics, minus the irrelevant parts.

[Nathan F]

Uhm, if a door is unlocked, it is quite easy to open it without a key.

Just because a door is unlocked doesn't mean you can simply push it open.
You usually still have to use the handle. Which is something external doors tend to not have on the outside, at least here in Germany.

In fact, I don't know anyone whose door has a handle on the outside...

They don't have a handle on the OUTSIDE? That is...odd... What if police or firefighters need to get in, do they bust the door out?

[Darth Wong]

Just to clear this up, most Canadians do lock their doors when they're asleep or away from home, although in the film, he went and visited a few Canadians who were home. It is not unusual for us to leave doors unlocked when we're at home.

[Colonel Olrik]

They don't have a handle on the OUTSIDE? That is...odd... What if police or firefighters need to get in, do they bust the door out?

They always enter through a window. It's not that hard.

And here in Lisbon we never lock the door when we're in the house, only at night and when we're outside. In my house in the countryside, it's indeed usual to leave the door open, and neighbours and friends do enter the house to check if someone's in.

[Darth Wong]

I haven't seen BFC, but really, I don't understand why everyone is getting so riled up about this. I mean, is it even possible for a "documentary" to be completely objective? It's not like someone should be surprised that Moore lets his biases take control of the film, but shouldn't people be on guard for that sort of thing?

Virtually all documentaries are somewhat biased. But when you tread on sacred ground, it becomes an excuse to go berserk and act like a whiny crybaby. In this case, Heston has never apologized for the unfortunate timing of that event, as far as I know.

This is arguably due to his personal pride rather than genuine contempt for the parents of Columbine, but the result is the same, and the people who wish to paint the edited version of his speech as a complete misrepresentation have yet to produce any evidence that he was, in fact, apologetic (since the only point of that segment was to show how he was unapologetic, they would have to show that he was apologetic in order to show that it was a misrepresentation).

As for the Oscars, the Oscars suck.

Of course

[Nathan F]

They don't have a handle on the OUTSIDE? That is...odd... What if police or firefighters need to get in, do they bust the door out?

They always enter through a window. It's not that hard.

And here in Lisbon we never lock the door when we're in the house, only at night and when we're outside. In my house in the countryside, it's indeed usual to leave the door open, and neighbours and friends do enter the house to check if someone's in.

Same here in Tennessee. If no one is at home, then the doors are locked. If someone is home, then the doors are usually unlocked, and it is not uncommon for visitors to come right in.

[Darth Wong]

Same here in Tennessee. If no one is at home, then the doors are locked. If someone is home, then the doors are usually unlocked, and it is not uncommon for visitors to come right in.

You live in a small town, don't you? What's it like in big cities?