Something bugging me in "Yesterday's Enterprise"

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-09-26 02:41pm

How was it that the Enterprise-C was able to take down 3(?)? Romulan warbirds?

Possible Advantages for Ent-C

1. They had Tasha Yar with her extensive tactical knowledge from the future. (But did they have her the first time? Damn grandfather clause!)

2. The Enterprise-C was observed to be more maneuverable than the E-D

3. The warbirds might have been early, weaker models (they were the modern kind, right?)

4. Enterprise-related character shielding

Possible Disadvantages for Ent-C

1. They presumably weren't taking on the Romulans one at a time. They were probably swarmed by even more warships than they killed.

2. The Enterprise-C had only half the shielding heat-dissapation rate of the E-D. We could extrapolate and assume that it had half the firepower as well. It was smaller than the E-D and twenty years behind it. One warbird is basically a match for the TNG E-D, isn't it?

3. The Enterprise-C was Ambassador-class. Doesn't sound like it was built for combat. Then again, Starfleet seems to often though not always pick strange, unrelated names for their starships.

Your thoughts? Did I miss something really big? I haven't seen the episode in a while.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-26 02:45pm

I thought Ent-C FAILED to defeat the warbirds, but was remembered becasue of their heroic stand.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-26 02:47pm

It won? I was under the mipression it got beaten.

It was the fact that they died with honour that the Klingons thought they were uber.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-26 02:47pm

Firstly.. how the hell did Garrett know what they were called anyway?

Anyway, did they say they took down three?
All I gathered is that the C got trashed (but evidentally not totally destroyed, gotta love pre-Galaxy endurance

) by 4 warbirds and that somehow was more important to the Klingons that the UFP saving their hairy asses in STVI.. but I digress..

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2002-09-26 02:48pm

Haven't seen it in a while either, so don't quote me on this:

The were defending a klingon station, perhaps they had support from the klingons.

Perhaps the warbirds were damaged from the klingon assault.

Perhaps the captain was the next James Kirk, and actually out-fought them.

Perhaps they [insert trecknobabble here] the romulan ships, resulting in their own destruction.

Perhaps Tasha was always meant to be at that battle (like when they found data's head) and used her knowledge of old romulan weaknesses.

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-09-26 03:04pm

E-C lost, the station was destroyed, etc...

What I don't get is Tasha was taken prisoner, among others.

Why would Klingons respect a bunch of pansies who don't fight to the death? It's not like them to respect a bunch of weak-blooded weiners.

Of course, if they never knew about the prisoners...

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-09-26 03:15pm

It seems that the rommies boarded both the Feddie ship and the Klingon station before they blew them both to bits. It seem evident that neither the Klingons or the Federation thought there was any survivers yet Tasha and a bunch of Klingon prisoners showed up later. Its hard to say what happened

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-09-26 03:36pm

The ENT C did not win the battle. It was the fact that they had come and made a stand against over whelming odds to defend a people that weren't really freinds that impressed the Klingons and gave them the impetus to seek peace with the Federation.

Garret says in the show: "We tried but there were FOUR warbirds." she stressed the number to emphasize the fact that the ENT C did not stand a chance and everyone knew full well that returning meant certain death which made the last stand even more heroic and tragic.

Definately on the top 10 of ST episodes ever.

Australopithicus · Post by **Australopithicus** » 2002-09-26 04:16pm

Failed Glory wrote:E-C lost, the station was destroyed, etc...

It wasn't a station. It was actually a colony on a Klingon planet called Khitomer. Duras' father collaborated with the Romulans, and dropped the colony shields, but got killed for his trouble anyway. Serves him right.

What I don't get is Tasha was taken prisoner, among others.
Why would Klingons respect a bunch of pansies who don't fight to the death? It's not like them to respect a bunch of weak-blooded weiners.

The Klingons didn't capture them. The ENT - C was up against 4 Romulan warbirds in a hopeless defense of Khitomer, and Romulans beamed aboard and took prisoners before the ENT - C went up in proverbial smoke. One of these was Tasha Yar (temporal paradox alert - I love those

). If you mean 'why did the Kingons respect them' because they lost, then it is an admirable thing that all Klingons hope to achieve - death in the line of duty...

Of course, if they never knew about the prisoners

"Anything else, Admiral?"
"A prayer, Mr. Saavik - Klingons don't take prisoners. Lights.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-26 04:19pm

Australopithicus wrote:
Failed Glory wrote:E-C lost, the station was destroyed, etc...
It wasn't a station. It was actually a colony on a Klingon planet called Khitomer. Duras' father collaborated with the Romulans, and dropped the colony shields, but got killed for his trouble anyway. Serves him right.

No, the Enterprise-C defended Narendra III, not Khitomer.

Australopithicus · Post by **Australopithicus** » 2002-09-26 04:26pm

Ah, damn. I knew I got something wrong there...but the colony was called Khitomer. It's the thought that counts...

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-09-26 04:47pm

Australopithicus wrote:
The Klingons didn't capture them. The ENT - C was up against 4 Romulan warbirds in a hopeless defense of Khitomer, and Romulans beamed aboard and took prisoners before the ENT - C went up in proverbial smoke. One of these was Tasha Yar (temporal paradox alert - I love those ). If you mean 'why did the Kingons respect them' because they lost, then it is an admirable thing that all Klingons hope to achieve - death in the line of duty...

You totally missed what I was saying there.

Some Feds from E-C were taken prisoner by the Romulans, as I said. You misinterpreted this as Klingons taking prisoners in a battle they lost. How do you take prisoners in a battle you utterly lose?

To rephrase, how can Klingons respect these Feds who didn't die to the last soldier in battle against the Romulans, as is the Klingon custom?

Anyways, it doesn't really matter. It's just an oddity of ST writing.

Australopithicus · Post by **Australopithicus** » 2002-09-26 04:52pm

Ah. I see.

But then again, there weren't any living Klingon soldiers to testify as to the last man thing, so they wouldn't know anyway.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2002-09-26 04:52pm

Its called stun.

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-09-26 05:21pm

Romulans use disruptors. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that disruptor technology didn't have stun?

Regardless, yes, no one living to report prisoners, but someone alive to report E-C defended the outpost? A message here or a survey of phaser fire there could reaffirm E-C's presence at the battle.

Like has been mentioned by Austro-boy, a moot point really as no one was around to say they took prisoners.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-09-26 05:32pm

Disruptors short out the nervous system, this can be fatal, or this can result in a Taser like short out of the ability to control one's limbs, depends mostly on if you got a full blast or not. The Fed's don't like disruptors because of the long term nerve damage, if you are hit at a less then fatal setting.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-26 07:12pm

The E-C and her crew fought to the death. It was pretty clear what had happened because a ship that large leaves a little something called wreckage when it is destroyed. When the Klingons arrived to investigate their destroyed outpost, they found the wreckage of the Enterprise-C and realized what had happened. They then realized that the Federation was not their enemy, and that the Romulans were. That effectively dissolved the Klingon-Romulan alliance, and allowed for the creation of the Klingon-Federation one.

That was one of my favorite TNG episodes ever.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2002-09-26 10:28pm

Doomriser wrote:How was it that the Enterprise-C was able to take down 3(?)? Romulan warbirds?

It didn't, and there were actually *4* Warbirds at the battle according
to Garrett.

I think it's fallacious to assume that Warbird = D'Deridex.
Warbird, like Bird-of-Prey, is a term apparently used for a *lot*
of ship designations; e.g., 2160-ish "Klingon Warbirds."

Corroborated by the upcoming film, I think we'll see that Romulans
just call *all* of their big ships "Warbirds." It's just a general
category, like battleship or cruiser.

Possible Advantages for Ent-C

1. They had Tasha Yar with her extensive tactical knowledge from the future. (But did they have her the first time? Damn grandfather clause!)

2. The Enterprise-C was observed to be more maneuverable than the E-D

3. The warbirds might have been early, weaker models (they were the modern kind, right?)

No, I think they were earlier models. There's no way to know for sure,
though 4 D'Deridex vs. one E-C is insane overkill.

4. Enterprise-related character shielding

Possible Disadvantages for Ent-C

1. They presumably weren't taking on the Romulans one at a time. They were probably swarmed by even more warships than they killed.

2. The Enterprise-C had only half the shielding heat-dissapation rate of the E-D. We could extrapolate and assume that it had half the firepower as well. It was smaller than the E-D and twenty years behind it. One warbird is basically a match for the TNG E-D, isn't it?

Probably slightly superior to a GCS, really, until the Dominion War anyhow.

3. The Enterprise-C was Ambassador-class. Doesn't sound like it was built for combat. Then again, Starfleet seems to often though not always pick strange, unrelated names for their starships.

Indeed. The Ambassadors were actually pretty well suited for
combat. Their nacelles sported dorsal armor plating, the nacelles
themselves were much shorter than previous big ships' (Excelsior),
the "neck" section appeared to be robust, and the ship was the first
known to employ phaser "strips," allowing for superior fire coverage.

Your thoughts? Did I miss something really big? I haven't seen the episode in a while.

Nah, you didn't miss anything, other than the fact that the E-C faced four ships and got its ass whipped in short order.

Sabastian Tombs · Post by **Sabastian Tombs** » 2002-09-26 11:17pm

Master of Ossus wrote:The E-C and her crew fought to the death. It was pretty clear what had happened because a ship that large leaves a little something called wreckage when it is destroyed. When the Klingons arrived to investigate their destroyed outpost, they found the wreckage of the Enterprise-C and realized what had happened. They then realized that the Federation was not their enemy, and that the Romulans were. That effectively dissolved the Klingon-Romulan alliance, and allowed for the creation of the Klingon-Federation one.

Or: The Klingons arrive to investigate their destroyed outpost, and find the wreckage, and realize that the outpost managed to take out part of the combined Federation-Romulan fleet that destroyed it.

DocMoriartty · Post by **DocMoriartty** » 2002-09-27 04:03pm

All we know is that the Romulans destroy the Enterprise-C and destroy the outlost. We do not know if they won the battle.

It is entirely possible that the repaired Enterprise-C lasted long enough for Klingon reinforcements to get close. This forces the Romulans to board quickly, take some prisoners, the run like mad out of there.

DocMoriartty · Post by **DocMoriartty** » 2002-09-27 04:07pm

All we know is that the Romulans destroy the Enterprise-C and destroy the outlost. We do not know if they won the battle.

It is entirely possible that the repaired Enterprise-C lasted long enough for Klingon reinforcements to get close. This forces the Romulans to board quickly, take some prisoners, the run like mad out of there.

Romulan_nemesis · Post by **Romulan_nemesis** » 2002-09-30 05:37pm

B&B said it was because of Tasha. Or so thats what I've read, and it actually makes sense. They had been fighting the Klingons for 20 years, giving her alot of tacitcal experience. And, She said Enterprise-C was much more maneuverable than the Romulan counterparts of that era and if Castillo would just isolate...(she never finished her sentence). Presumable she did isolate something to make the fight more equal, the Enterprise more defendable, or give the Enterprise more firepower or something. And since it was a 20 year old warbird, Starfleet probably knew its schematics which, knowing the Romualns, were unavailable at that time. And she might have used this to her advantage, knowing which specific systems to target, etc.

Nemesis

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-09-30 09:24pm

Thanks everyone who replied. My question was answered and then some!

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Something bugging me in "Yesterday's Enterprise"

Something bugging me in "Yesterday's Enterprise"

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