Johnny Depp badmouths America in Germany

[BoredShirtless]

To me, it definately seems like many Europeans who deride Bush don't hate his home country per se - they just want to see somebody else in power.

Many > Majority.

[Stormbringer]

Of course I'm not sure what to make of people rooting to see American troops killed in Iraq and saying the US government is responsible for September 11th.

People can say the dumbest things when they're in a huff. But that's not to say there aren't genuine lunatics wishing horrible stuff.

I've seen a couple polls from Germany and France where large percentages of the population did the fomrer. And a poll in Germany reported a third of them believe the latter (there's a thread about it here). It's not a huff and it's not offhand sentiment.

It's things like that which gives Americans incredibly mixed feelings about Europe.

[BoredShirtless]

Of course I'm not sure what to make of people rooting to see American troops killed in Iraq and saying the US government is responsible for September 11th.

People can say the dumbest things when they're in a huff. But that's not to say there aren't genuine lunatics wishing horrible stuff.

I've seen a couple polls from Germany and France where large percentages of the population did the fomrer.

Well? Don't just say it like I'm meant to know what you mean. Links?

And a poll in Germany reported a third of them believe the latter (there's a thread about it here).

Believe what? Horrible stuff?

It's not a huff and it's not offhand sentiment.

What isn't? Why are you being so vague?

It's things like that which gives Americans incredibly mixed feelings about Europe.

Things like what? Mysterious polls?

[Gil Hamilton]

It seems to be a phenomenon almost unique to the US. You criticize the government and people take it very seriously and personally, almost as if we cannot seperate the two. I cannot explain this. This happens all the time in debates about US policy here, inevitably, people start taking it personally.

I think for one thing is that America has always had basically this sort of government and thus consider the government part of the national identity. This is not true for European countries, for instance France, which has had many different varieties of governments over the centuries, but they still were always French regardless. The fact that they've been French through monarchies, revolutions, and transitions to it's current state makes it's easy to divorce national identity with their government. The United States on the other hand, had an more dramatic formation. It broke away from England to form a revolutionary government which is supposed to represent everyone; the representative democracy, the republic. This idea that the government is by the people and for the people is baked into many Americans collective consciousness and they can't easily divorce the people whom they've elected to represent them from their national identity.

Also I think it has to do with people's tendancy to treat politics and stuff of that nature like football, it doesn't matter whether any criticism is justified or not about a player on the team, he's still part of the team, and therefore the fans are going to take offense if they hear any trash talk. This sports team mentality leads people to call criticism of the Bush Administration "anti-American" even if it's not directed at America in general, just because it was directed at the country at all.

Those are my theories at any rate.

[Stormbringer]

Well? Don't just say it like I'm meant to know what you mean. Links?

I don't have any links. They were from TV not the 'net, MSNBC and Headlines News. The polls themselves were from European news agencies I believe.

Believe what? Horrible stuff?

It was poll (the article about it was posted here) in which a third of all Germans stated that they believed the US government actively collaborated in bringing about the September 11th attacks.

What isn't? Why are you being so vague?

When you take everything apart sentence by sentence of course it's vague. Try reading the whole paragraph.

Things like what? Mysterious polls?

Seeing supposed allies wishing our troops dead. Accusing the US government (the vast majority of American support the war on terror if not the war on Iraq) of murdering three thousand people for the sake of supposed imperial ambitions. Things like that.

[Stravo]

There was that infamous poll where 30% of young Germans thought the US had something to do with 9/11. I started a thread about it a few months ago.

[BoredShirtless]

Believe what? Horrible stuff?

It was poll (the article about it was posted here) in which a third of all Germans stated that they believed the US government actively collaborated in bringing about the September 11th attacks.

Meh, they polled a bunch of teenagers. Who cares, teenagers say stupid things all the time, even when they're at their best.

What isn't? Why are you being so vague?

When you take everything apart sentence by sentence of course it's vague. Try reading the whole paragraph.

Ok, I'll ask again. Quoting you:

It's not a huff and it's not offhand sentiment.

Please explain, I do not understand.

Things like what? Mysterious polls?

Seeing supposed allies wishing our troops dead. Accusing the US government (the vast majority of American support the war on terror if not the war on Iraq) of murdering three thousand people for the sake of supposed imperial ambitions. Things like that.

Criticism directed at your government will always splash onto other things, especially when emotions are high. Don't worry about it. Most Europeans do, once again, like your country.

[Stormbringer]

Meh, they polled a bunch of teenagers. Who cares, teenagers say stupid things all the time, even when they're at their best.

Not teens, younger Germans. I'm presuming that includes college age people. I'll have to look at the article again.

And even then it's not something that you can dismiss so easly. You've got no idea what September 11th means to most Americans. Seeing stuff like that is like a salt in an open wound. It pisses people off. And it affects how we percieve Germany.

Ok, I'll ask again. Quoting you:

It's not a huff and it's not offhand sentiment.

Please explain, I do not understand.

I'm saying I doubt polls reflect mere huffs or passing sentiments as you said.

Criticism directed at your government will always splash onto other things, especially when emotions are high. Don't worry about it. Most Europeans do, once again, like your country.

Well, that "splash" makes for profoundly mixed feelings about Europe. Most Americans that opposed the war still don't want to see Iraq turn into a Vietnam and want Iraq to be fixed. So when people wish that on our troops it makes for bad feelings. And it's hard to think those people don't hate us.

And the September 11th thing, I doubt any one that's not American can truly comprehend what that event meant. Lobbing bullshit accusations like that simply piss people off like you wouldn't beleive.

[Darth Wong]

Of course I'm not sure what to make of people rooting to see American troops killed in Iraq and saying the US government is responsible for September 11th.

People can say the dumbest things when they're in a huff. But that's not to say there aren't genuine lunatics wishing horrible stuff.

I've seen a couple polls from Germany and France where large percentages of the population did the fomrer. And a poll in Germany reported a third of them believe the latter (there's a thread about it here). It's not a huff and it's not offhand sentiment.

It's things like that which gives Americans incredibly mixed feelings about Europe.

Talk is cheap. How many times have we on this board talked about nuking France? How many times have people on this board talked about nuking Arabs? When you see some guy on TV "rooting to see American troops killed in Iraq", why is that any more offensive than some French guy logging onto an American message board and seeing people screaming that the French should be carpet-bombed?

Young men, big talk, and nasty sentiment tends to simply breed more of the same.

[Stormbringer]

Talk is cheap. How many times have we on this board talked about nuking France? How many times have people on this board talked about nuking Arabs? When you see some guy on TV "rooting to see American troops killed in Iraq", why is that any more offensive than some French guy logging onto an American message board and seeing people screaming that the French should be carpet-bombed?

Any how many of those were serious? I'd bet not that many. There's a difference between lame jokes and serious desires.

But anyway, seriously advocating such things (as that seems to be) then it's equally offensive and they'd have every right to be pissed. A frenchmen has the same right to be pissed about that.

[Typhonis 1]

At least he hasn`t pulled a Hanoy Fonda. Woman should be shot for TREASON

[Peregrin Toker]

Well, that "splash" makes for profoundly mixed feelings about Europe. Most Americans that opposed the war still don't want to see Iraq turn into a Vietnam and want Iraq to be fixed.

Many serious pacifists from Europe don't want Iraq to be left descending into anarchy, either.

[Stuart Mackey]

And the September 11th thing, I doubt any one that's not American can truly comprehend what that event meant. Lobbing bullshit accusations like that simply piss people off like you wouldn't beleive.

Oi, hold your horses there..many nations have had a traumatic events that have a deep effect them. For my nation, it was WW1 and Gallipoli in particular and WW2 beccause in both wars one person in five was in uniform, and a large casualty rate. These event still impact us on many levels, not least because these events have had a big impact on who we are.
Most of the world has a great deal of sympathy for America over 9/11, but dont think that we, other nations, cannot comprehend the effect it has had.

[Howedar]

I find it interesting when 1/3 of Germans believe that the US Govt. actively collaberated on the Sept11 attacks it is just brushed off, but everyone loves to mock US schoolchildren on their alleged lack of geographic knowledge.

That's not the least bit hypocritical, now is it?

[Darth Wong]

I find it interesting when 1/3 of Germans believe that the US Govt. actively collaberated on the Sept11 attacks it is just brushed off, but everyone loves to mock US schoolchildren on their alleged lack of geographic knowledge.

That's not the least bit hypocritical, now is it?

I guess it depends on whether you think it's more shameful to subscribe to conspiracy theories than to be ignorant of basic geography.

[Howedar]

Stupid conspiracy theories. Lets be fair here.


And personally, I find the theories worse. You ability to function in society is impaired if you believe stuff that outlandish and foolish, while I don't think many people have been handicapped by not being able to find Iraq on a map.

[Darth Wong]

Stupid conspiracy theories. Lets be fair here.

That's a redundant term. All conspiracy theories are stupid. I don't see how the 9/11 conspiracy theory is any goofier than the JFK conspiracy theories.

And personally, I find the theories worse. You ability to function in society is impaired if you believe stuff that outlandish and foolish, while I don't think many people have been handicapped by not being able to find Iraq on a map.

Actually, there are many people who seem to do just fine in life while believing in stuff which is outlandish and foolish. The entire Bible Belt, for example.

[Glocksman]

Stupid conspiracy theories. Lets be fair here.


And personally, I find the theories worse. You ability to function in society is impaired if you believe stuff that outlandish and foolish, while I don't think many people have been handicapped by not being able to find Iraq on a map.

George Bush?

Sorry: couldn't resist that one.

[Stormbringer]

Well, that "splash" makes for profoundly mixed feelings about Europe. Most Americans that opposed the war still don't want to see Iraq turn into a Vietnam and want Iraq to be fixed.

Many serious pacifists from Europe don't want Iraq to be left descending into anarchy, either.

Yes, there are and they no doubt constitute a majority. That's something I've never doubted. But there are also people that simply want to see the US. They want to see repeats of Blackhawk Down simply out of sheer spite. For that matter, there have been those that have expressed sentiments pretty damn close to that here on the board.

Believe it or not, I can tell the difference between those that oppossed the war for moral reasons (even if I don't agree with them) and those that opposed the war out of sheer spite and hatred. I'm well aware that people exist of both types.

But what you have to understand is that American's see both. And that leads to the kind mixed feelings most American's now have about Europe.

Oi, hold your horses there..many nations have had a traumatic events that have a deep effect them. For my nation, it was WW1 and Gallipoli in particular and WW2 beccause in both wars one person in five was in uniform, and a large casualty rate. These event still impact us on many levels, not least because these events have had a big impact on who we are.

And there's a huge difference between events at two or three generations removed than there is from those immediately affected. That's just a given of human nature. Tose are tragedies, I'm not denying that. Nor am I saying that no nation has ever suffered a tragedy of the same maginitude. Even the US has in many ways moved beyond our experience in Vietnam.

Those events have lost their immediacy and indeed a lot of their relevance. That makes all the difference in the world in how people react. It's the simple facts of life.

Most of the world has a great deal of sympathy for America over 9/11, but dont think that we, other nations, cannot comprehend the effect it has had.

I think there's huge gulf between knowing and experiencing. Just from how I've seen people from other countries react shows that. Abstract knowledge is one thing but honest to god experience is quite another.

Would you count a detailed description of sex you got from a friend the same thing as having sex? That's the difference between knowing and experiencing.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, there are and they no doubt constitute a majority. That's something I've never doubted. But there are also people that simply want to see the US. They want to see repeats of Blackhawk Down simply out of sheer spite.

They want to see 18 Americans killed vs 1000 foreign militiamen killed?

Most of the world has a great deal of sympathy for America over 9/11, but dont think that we, other nations, cannot comprehend the effect it has had.

I think there's huge gulf between knowing and experiencing. Just from how I've seen people from other countries react shows that. Abstract knowledge is one thing but honest to god experience is quite another.

Would you count a detailed description of sex you got from a friend the same thing as having sex? That's the difference between knowing and experiencing.

Were you there, in Manhattan on 9/11? If not, then you are on the same side of the gulf between "knowing" and "experiencing" that we were. I'm physically closer to New York than most of America. I get broadcast TV from New York state. I've been to New York state on many occasions. There are a lot of Americans out there who are less connected to New York than I am, and who experienced less fear. The planes diverted from American airspace after the attack (any of which could have been full of terrorists for all we knew) came right here, to Pearson airport, not too far from where I am. I was genuinely afraid on that day.

[Stormbringer]

Stupid conspiracy theories. Lets be fair here.

That's a redundant term. All conspiracy theories are stupid. I don't see how the 9/11 conspiracy theory is any goofier than the JFK conspiracy theories.

No, not all conspiracy theories are stupid. Conspiracy is possible; it's happened often enough. Ask Gaius Julius Casear if you don't believe far reaching consipracy is possible

On the other hand, conspiracy theories with out factual evidence are stupid. They're as frivilous as any claim with out basis in established fact. They're no better than fairy tales. Those are rightly scorned


And why the hell shouldn't we have ambivilent feelings about Germany? Mike, do you have warm, mushy feelings about the Bible Belt? When a third of German youth subscribe to a ludicrious theory like that why shouldn't we be wary of them. It is ignorance but it's a potentially dangerous ignorance if it's acted on. And the motivation and mindset it suggests are as scary as an fundy.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

I think there's huge gulf between knowing and experiencing. Just from how I've seen people from other countries react shows that. Abstract knowledge is one thing but honest to god experience is quite another.

Would you count a detailed description of sex you got from a friend the same thing as having sex? That's the difference between knowing and experiencing.

I can see your point in regards to immediacy of an event, for those who were there. But it is also true, I would imagine, of people in America in regards to 9/11. Did everyone in America have a relitive die when the towers went down? no, but it still has an effect on the nation.
In NZ just about everyone has a family member who died in the world wars, that has an effect. Some families still have issues because of post traumatic stress syndrome brought on by the war and how that has effected two or three generations.
I have people come into my museum who had family members die in our nations worst fire back in in 1947, that still has impact even now.
The 9/11 disater will have an impact for generations to come and it will effect your nation in many ways just as similar things have effected the nature of other nations. But please, dont think you are the only ones who can comprehend, because thats simply not true.

[Stormbringer]

I can see your point in regards to immediacy of an event, for those who were there. But it is also true, I would imagine, of people in America in regards to 9/11. Did everyone in America have a relitive die when the towers went down? no, but it still has an effect on the nation.

There is of course a major difference between those in New York and Washington DC and those watching on TV.

But it's one thing to see it happen in a foriegn country, quite another for it to be your own. It's an us: them sort of thing. It makes a big difference.

In NZ just about everyone has a family member who died in the world wars, that has an effect. Some families still have issues because of post traumatic stress syndrome brought on by the war and how that has effected two or three generations.
I have people come into my museum who had family members die in our nations worst fire back in in 1947, that still has impact even now.

Events decades in the past have a different impact than those of the present. My grandpa still has bad memories of his B-17 crashing, I can't look at one of the things with out getting a tear thinking about men like my grandpa fighting and dying in them.

But for all that matters, it's still two generations removed from my experience. You just don't seem to understand that profound difference there is between knowing and experiencing.

The 9/11 disater will have an impact for generations to come and it will effect your nation in many ways just as similar things have effected the nature of other nations. But please, dont think you are the only ones who can comprehend, because thats simply not true.

You just don't get it. You probably won't ever.

[Stuart Mackey]

I can see your point in regards to immediacy of an event, for those who were there. But it is also true, I would imagine, of people in America in regards to 9/11. Did everyone in America have a relitive die when the towers went down? no, but it still has an effect on the nation.

There is of course a major difference between those in New York and Washington DC and those watching on TV.

But it's one thing to see it happen in a foriegn country, quite another for it to be your own. It's an us: them sort of thing. It makes a big difference.

Do you think thats any differnt for Australians over the Bali bombing? do you think they cannot comprehend what you have gone through with so many Aussie's being killed?

In NZ just about everyone has a family member who died in the world wars, that has an effect. Some families still have issues because of post traumatic stress syndrome brought on by the war and how that has effected two or three generations.
I have people come into my museum who had family members die in our nations worst fire back in in 1947, that still has impact even now.

Events decades in the past have a different impact than those of the present. My grandpa still has bad memories of his B-17 crashing, I can't look at one of the things with out getting a tear thinking about men like my grandpa fighting and dying in them.

But for all that matters, it's still two generations removed from my experience. You just don't seem to understand that profound difference there is between knowing and experiencing.

Tell that to the men who got over the war by beating up on their wifes and there sons and grandchildren doing the same thing.

The 9/11 disater will have an impact for generations to come and it will effect your nation in many ways just as similar things have effected the nature of other nations. But please, dont think you are the only ones who can comprehend, because thats simply not true.

You just don't get it. You probably won't ever.

Dont hand me that, yours is not the only nation..you want to tell that to people India which has recently had terrorist bombings?
Or how about Isreal/Palastine for how many decades they have had bombings, or in Northern Island for decades . I still get people in my museum who had parents/family members died in Ballantynes in 1947 who are still affected, even now that fire has an effect in Christchurch, where I live because of the scope and the reasons for that fire.
Yours is not the only nation that has had bad shit happen.hell events here of the 19th century are having a direct impact now and have done for the last 35 years because events then are a running sore.
The world has empathy for you, and supported you, exactly because our own tragdies have effected us in the same way.

[Iceberg]

Didn't a majority of French people polled want to see the US lose the war to Iraq? How much are we supposed to like them after that?

They thought we were going into a place we didn't belong, to pick a fight that wasn't necessary (which was, to an extent, true).