Cowboy Bebop Symbolism (SPOILERS)

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2003-09-05 11:49pm

I'm not sure if AP is the place for this, but what are everyone's ideas on symbolism in, say, Cowboy Bebop? Most all forms of media have symbolism, but am I the only one who sees CB chock full of symbolism and metaphor? Either its intentional, or that English award from highschool addled my mind.
In addition to the more obvious, thematic symbolism (the thru-ceiling-fan shots, Julia's Doves of Doom), does anyone have any opinions on Ed's coming of age? The significance of Spikes red/brown eyes, particularly his attempt to shoot vicious using only his 'red' eye? In broader strokes, the fact that all the characters (even, to a lesser extent Ein) spend the series defining themselves in the world?

[/ramble] This seemed like the most appropriate forum... hope it is

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-06 12:17am

It's not, really, but that's no problem. It probably belongs in OT.

In a way, Spike's death is symbolic of the end of the bounty hunting era. The show takes place during what seems like the twilight of the era of the bounty hunters; the members of the Bebop are the best in the business, yet they deal with the spectre of bankruptcy on a daily basis, many of their bounties end up getting caught by the ISSP (which finally seems to be growing into an effective force), and overall it seems like control by both governments and big corporations is finally being reasserted. This is made no clearer anywhere else than in Asteroid Blues, where Asimov (who should have been an easy bounty) and Katerina try to flee Tijuana and are absolutely surrounded by ISSP spacecraft. The Syndicates are coming to the end of their time, as well, as Mao Yenrai recognized in his attempt to quell the violence and operate more peacefully (he may have had the long term goal of going completely legit). Spike's death sort of symbolizes the end of that lawless, uncontrolled world, in a way. Watanabe says "the taste of BeBop lies in the sadness (heart-rending sorrow) that things have to come to an end." And I think this applies to many things, the end of Spike's life, the end of the Bebop family, and the end of the bounty hunting era. Even Big Shot! is cancelled. It's also significant that as Spike dies, the sun beings to rise, and we're treated to that big, beautiful blue, sky. It's almost as if the world is being reborn anew, in a bittersweet way.

I know that sounds sappy, but that's how I see Bebop.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-06 12:22am

Just remember that there is such a thing as overanalysis (a particular annoyance of mine).

Just don't try to read anything that's not there.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-06 12:24am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Just remember that there is such a thing as overanalysis (a particular annoyance of mine).

Just don't try to read anything that's not there.

I admit I went overboard with the blue sky thing, but I think the "end of an era" idea is sound.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-06 12:35am

Oh no, I was just speaking in general. Sorry about that.

I totally agree with the "end of an era" thing. It just makes sense, and adds to the finality of the series' conclusion.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-06 12:45am

Moved to OT, and I agree with Durran.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-06 01:05am

Actually, shouldn't this be in OSF?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-09-06 01:07am

Anyone notice that lots of things in Cowboy Bebop are named after figures and songs from Classic Rock?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2003-09-06 02:03am

Much of Bebop seems archetypical to me - the themes and characters are pretty universal. Jet as the wise teacher, Spike as the tragic hero, etc. The themes are handled well tho - how crap would it have been if super-dog Ein could talk, instead of just being a smart dog, or if they couldn't pass smokes around the bridge in zero-g?

Durran, could you see part of the Spike/Vicious relationship as a part of world change which takes place during the series? The consummate bounty-hunter and the bloodthirsty crimeboss destroying each other, and being unable to change to fit the world?

I share a loathing for overanaylsis (theology ahoy), but since CB is obviously well thought-out and detailed, I'm interested to see how everyone else reacts to it. In particular, the second time I saw Hard Luck Woman, I noticed that as Ed decides to leave with Ein, that is the only time her face is drawn in an 'adult' style, without the Japanimation kiddie look. Thats not too much of a stretch, is it?

And further reinforcement for the end of the syndicates would be Black Dog Serenade, where the escaped Syndicate assassin (one whom an elaborate plot was enacted to protect in the past) was disowned and denied support by his old Syndicate. I imagine they agree with Mao and the (former) Red Dragon elders, in that such characters are no longer what the Syndicates need.

How closely does this echo the end of the 'frontier' in the actual old west? Didn't peace and commerce replace the freelance bounty hunters and nomadic criminals, as the frontier disappeared?

EDIT - stupid oops

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-06 02:05am

Not bad, but don't call it "japanimation", or I'll gently tear out your guts with my teeth.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-06 03:58am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Actually, shouldn't this be in OSF?

OT's a better place, I think.

kojikun wrote:Anyone notice that lots of things in Cowboy Bebop are named after figures and songs from Classic Rock?

Bebop has a lot of references to Western rock classics and the like, since they tend to embody well the thematic elements of the series - take a listen to Bohemiam Rhapsody, for instance. Essentially, Bebop is like a session of Blues. Pretty cool.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Not bad, but don't call it "japanimation", or I'll gently tear out your guts with my teeth.

I'd take his advice, Stark - the otaku here are liable to flame you to oblivion for that. They're rather...easily upset, if you get my drift. Hehehe

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-06 07:14am

kojikun wrote:Anyone notice that lots of things in Cowboy Bebop are named after figures and songs from Classic Rock?

Read the first three volumes of the manga, if you like the rock and roll allusions.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-09-06 10:31am

I'm thinking the fact that a bebop is an old music style and that each episode was named after popular albums or songs shows symbolism.

That and the last words we see in the series of an old Beatles song thatI must find in my collection one day.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-06 10:33am

You're Gonna Carry that Weight, from Abbey Road.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-09-06 10:39am

Durran Korr wrote:You're Gonna Carry that Weight, from Abbey Road.

Oh I know the song and album, I just need to find the actual disc, conveniently, it's probably in the attic which is full of crap I'll have to shift.

Bah, MP3 it is then.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-09-06 12:10pm

If there is a Bebop episode that doesn't either contain a style of music in the title or is the name of a rock song, I can't think of it.

(Actually, what about Peirrot le Fou?)

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-09-06 12:26pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:If there is a Bebop episode that doesn't either contain a style of music in the title or is the name of a rock song, I can't think of it.

(Actually, what about Peirrot le Fou?)

Peirrot le Fou doesn't have a musical form because it's more about the horror genre and a bit of a tribute to the American animated Batman series--which was really very good.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-09-06 12:29pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:If there is a Bebop episode that doesn't either contain a style of music in the title or is the name of a rock song, I can't think of it.

(Actually, what about Peirrot le Fou?)
Peirrot le Fou doesn't have a musical form because it's more about the horror genre and a bit of a tribute to the American animated Batman series--which was really very good.

But primarily Pierrot Le Fou was a film about a couple evading a professional hitman.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-06 12:30pm

I love that movie.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-09-06 12:34pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Pablo Sanchez wrote:Peirrot le Fou doesn't have a musical form because it's more about the horror genre and a bit of a tribute to the American animated Batman series--which was really very good.
But primarily Pierrot Le Fou was a film about a couple evading a professional hitman.

We're obviously talking about the CB session, Valdemar, Comte de Sarcasme.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-09-06 12:36pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Pablo Sanchez wrote:Peirrot le Fou doesn't have a musical form because it's more about the horror genre and a bit of a tribute to the American animated Batman series--which was really very good.
But primarily Pierrot Le Fou was a film about a couple evading a professional hitman.
We're obviously talking about the CB session, Valdemar, Comte de Sarcasme.

Which is related to the CB episode in general feel and plot.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-09-06 12:44pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Which is related to the CB episode in general feel and plot.

Except for the part with the couple, and the hitman being an artificially built deathmachine, and the revenge element from the beginning, and the cats, and the bizarre psychology, and... well, you get my point, I think.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-09-06 01:00pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Which is related to the CB episode in general feel and plot.
Except for the part with the couple, and the hitman being an artificially built deathmachine, and the revenge element from the beginning, and the cats, and the bizarre psychology, and... well, you get my point, I think.

Yeah, it's just like the film in general feel.

*Fires harpoon at Pablo*

I hope you got my point.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-06 04:57pm

Durran,

I've got to disagree with you. I don't think Spike's death is tied to the death of bounty hunting or anything like that. You're reading into it too much. The crew's broke and on the edge because Watanabe was using the 1920s detective (or the classic portrayal of) as the basis for Spike and Company. They're always on the ragged edge of finiancial disaster. It's a trait lifted from the movies, same as the smoking.

And stuff like the syndicate negotations and stuff like that? It's lifted from pop culture. It doesn't have a much deeper significance beyond that.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-06 05:16pm

I've got to disagree with you. I don't think Spike's death is tied to the death of bounty hunting or anything like that. You're reading into it too much. The crew's broke and on the edge because Watanabe was using the 1920s detective (or the classic portrayal of) as the basis for Spike and Company. They're always on the ragged edge of finiancial disaster. It's a trait lifted from the movies, same as the smoking.

That still doesn't address the crux of my argument; that governments and corporations are beginning to reassert control over space, thus making it more difficult for bounty hunters and syndicates to do their business.