Transporters might be useless against Imperial ships

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-09-26 02:06pm

I hear sometimes from pro trek people that they could easily transport a photon torpedo into the reactor of an imperial ship. or that Dominion transporters could just start transporting soldiers onto the bridge, but I was watching Voyager the other day, and came across something interesting.

It was a few days ago, and I'm trying to remember the exact example, plesae someone help me out, but they coudln't transport someone off the surface of a planet because the Rock was too dense, not that they were too far down into the planet, but because the rock was infact too dense.
The hull of stardestroyers are incredibly dense are they not?

Besides the jamming, lets say the jamming wasn't active, could the transporters go through the hull?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-09-26 02:08pm

If they have problems with Limestone(and gods knows what host of other things)

I'd say the hull of a TIE fighter would give them trouble...sorry even under ideal circumstances Transporters are spotty.

Under heavy flak...not working.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-09-26 02:09pm

Mike goes over this in the site: ore, metal, shields, and energy fields all can block transporters.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-26 02:11pm

Details please - what episode was it? if you dont know the name just describe what happened (hmm its Voyager didnt the same thing always happen?

)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-09-26 02:16pm

Actually the episode with Data's Mom they had problems transporting...and that was because of Limestone...literally.

Heck I'm amazed the things hav practical use...much like the bloody Holodeck(which apparently can kill on a whim...and you can take over the ship from within...Moriarty anyone?)

and then there's the Warp core...which seems to be a weekly event(and this was Next Gen let alone Voyager.)

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-09-26 02:16pm

TheDarkling wrote:Details please - what episode was it? if you dont know the name just describe what happened (hmm its Voyager didnt the same thing always happen? )

I wish i could remember more details,

Though this happens all the time, where the rock is to dense

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-26 02:51pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Actually the episode with Data's Mom they had problems transporting...and that was because of Limestone...literally.

Heck I'm amazed the things hav practical use...much like the bloody Holodeck(which apparently can kill on a whim...and you can take over the ship from within...Moriarty anyone?)

and then there's the Warp core...which seems to be a weekly event(and this was Next Gen let alone Voyager.)

Ah, yes, TNG Inheritance. And in that particular episode they had trouble beaming through several kilometers of solid rock. That is not the same as a ships armor plating or hull material.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-26 03:04pm

Anyone got a quote on the amount of rock? because I have had a look at the script and all I can find is that its several miles underground but I cant find a reference to the transporters not working.

I did some calcs based upon the fact that the transport is limited by the mass it passes on its way to its destination - I worked out it would take 80 M of Depleated Uranium to block a transporter and the only density for Imp armour I have found places it around the Iron mark.

greenmm · Post by **greenmm** » 2002-09-26 03:10pm

Kilometers?

If this is the one with the Crystal Entity, weren't they just inside the cave mouth? I seem to remember Riker looking out the cave mouth and watching the Crystal Entity kill some people on the surface.

However, there are also some other instances where the transporter has problems with particular material types, and the problem seems to be more the material used than the thickness of said material. Not to mention high levels of background radiation interfering with them (even the fairly low level of radiation inside the reactor room of CVN-65 USS Enterprise in ST4 was enough to give them problems [could only lock on to 1 of them at a time, and Chekov was stranded]), plus the problem of shields always interfering with transporters.

As has been pointed out, though, Mike already covered this on his site.

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-09-26 03:10pm

The only piece of technology that fails for plot reasons more than the transporter is the holodeck.

I also think relying on that Voyager episode for the ONE tactic that will defeat the Empire is pretty lame.

It was tricky, yes, but how often do you think you're going to get close enough, decloak, beam a torpedo into the solar reactor chamber (which might be full of radiation, disallowing a proper transport), cloak and fly away to victory?

Once? Ok. Twice? Possibly. Ten times? I'd like to see that. 25,000 times? Do not be ridiculous.

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-09-26 03:13pm

PS. I believe the borg ship's sheilds were down at the moment of attack (right after the now annoying "resistance is useless" speech), allowing Janeway just one chance to beam ordinance into the scout sphere.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-09-26 03:22pm

greenmm wrote:Kilometers?

If this is the one with the Crystal Entity, weren't they just inside the cave mouth? I seem to remember Riker looking out the cave mouth and watching the Crystal Entity kill some people on the surface.

However, there are also some other instances where the transporter has problems with particular material types, and the problem seems to be more the material used than the thickness of said material. Not to mention high levels of background radiation interfering with them (even the fairly low level of radiation inside the reactor room of CVN-65 USS Enterprise in ST4 was enough to give them problems [could only lock on to 1 of them at a time, and Chekov was stranded]), plus the problem of shields always interfering with transporters.

As has been pointed out, though, Mike already covered this on his site.

First, it was not a Crystal Entity episode.

As to the incident with CVN-65, that was a Bird of Prey from TOS movie era that was extremely low on power.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-26 03:46pm

Ahh yes Transporters...

Maybe I point out that the background raditation from somthing as small as a Transformer was enough to block Transports before?

Frankly the Lighting System on the ISD should be enough to block it, let alone the multiple Shield systems and what-not, remeber ISDs have thier ships up as a running precaution, not always 100% power of course, but considering even at 5% Power levels thats enough to take at LOW END, thirty Q-Torps, At Mid, 300,000 Q-Torps... I think they will be fine....

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-26 03:51pm

Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen if you will take your seats.

Today we are discussing Trans 101: An introduction to debunked transporter myths.

I will now hand you over to my esteemed associate Mr Bean.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-09-26 03:59pm

Once The Imperials raised their Partical Shields(which are on at all time to prevent damage from micrometeorites while flyinf around) the Federation would not be able to pull such tactics.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-26 03:59pm

Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen if you will take your seats.

Today we are discussing Trans 101: An introduction to debunked transporter myths.

I will now hand you over to my esteemed associate Mr Bean.

Thanks for that Intro Darkling and Welcome fokes to Trans 101
Hello Fokes See this umm Ladie's Pleasuring Device? When pluged in and turned on... Say who wants a free ride on the Transporter?

hmmmm. AH! Ensign Timmy! Hop up there and we will just put this umm device on the table here and now I'm going to Transport Ensign Timmy Across the Room.....

Annnnd

*TOS Transporter sound effects

*Loud screaming

Ahh.. Were going to need a New Timmy!

Thats lesson number one fokes, when at work, don't leave these sorts of things liying around and on as the radation is enough to block most transporters... and create nasty results for the transporteee

Australopithicus · Post by **Australopithicus** » 2002-09-26 04:57pm

Would Daimon Bok's subspace transporter work?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-26 05:01pm

uh oh I sense a disturbance in the force (and I need sleep - why, why torture me like this?)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-26 06:17pm

Australopithicus wrote:Would Daimon Bok's subspace transporter work?

Ummm ... you realize that it would be just as sensitive to environmental interference as subspace sensors and subspace communications, right? See my canon database for the horrors ...

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-26 06:30pm

Wong: Bean and I went over this and the conclusion was that subspace sensors and comms have no link to subspace transporters.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-26 07:02pm

Wong: Bean and I went over this and the conclusion was that subspace sensors and comms have no link to subspace transporters.

Wrong we went over Subspace SENSORS and Trans are diffrent but you never proved that comms are diffrent besides a vauge *they opperate at diffrent heights in subspace

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-26 07:07pm

Cant you rememebr I proved that SF had comms blocking capabilities at that point you gave up remember?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-26 07:09pm

Twas awhile ago and I don't remeber all the particulars, However the only part I conceeded was that Sensors and Trans where diffrent

However you never did get around to proving it besides vauge assumptions

However this is niether the time no the place to start this up agian

If you want to purpose this, fine, Get a thread ready, assemble your evidance start a new thread on the topic and post it in SW VS ST and we can begin tommrow(Tis late here)

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-09-26 07:47pm

The Darkling wrote:

I did some calcs based upon the fact that the transport is limited by the mass it passes on its way to its destination - I worked out it would take 80 M of Depleated Uranium to block a transporter and the only density for Imp armour I have found places it around the Iron mark.

Could you post those calcs, I'm curious as to how they were derived?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-26 08:15pm

Ok Just finished watching the episode - they have to drill 1.6 km down to penetrate the granite meaning that transporting past 0.5 km of granite is possible - Both ways.

Now since we know that beaming down is easier than up thats figure is probably much lower than that which would stop outbound transport however sticking with the apporx 0.5 figure will do for the moment

Therefore the mass in a - rough esitmate here (1m* 1m * 500 m) * 2600 (density of granite) = 1300000 Kg.

lets divide that by the density of iron to find out how much iron would stop a normal transporter.

1300000 / 7600 = 171 m of iron needed to stop a normal transporter beaming someone from an imperial ship.

Of course something denser is probably in use, lets say lead.

1300000 / 11340 = 144 m of lead needed to block a beam up.

Lets try depleted uranium which is dense by earthbound standards.
Im not sure on the exact figure but I know its approx 1.7 that of lead.

Therefore 144 / 1.7 = 84 m of depleted Uranium will stop the federation transporters beaming up someone.

Now we have no knowledge with which to determine how much easier it is to transport someone in than it is to beam them out so I cant try and figure it out, unless someone has some evidence for me.

Its based off this episode and these quotes.

GEORDI (O.S.)
(continuing)
And that's about two kilometers
of solid granite above them.

PICARD
How far must we penetrate to
safely allow transporter function?

GEORDI
One point six kilometers.

I seem to have used 0.5 instead of 0.4 but its close enough especially in light that Geordi says "about" and its easier to beam out than down, anyway its only a rough aprox anyway.

It is based upon that transporters are blocked by the amount of mass they must traverse not density - basically because if it was density and 2 Km of Granite could block it then 1 m should also stop it (therefore mass not density - if you catch my drift).