How many errors?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-09-06 10:23pm

How many unexplainable contradictions must there be in a novel or comic or game for it to be totally thrown out the airlock?

Take for example Darksabre.

Statements that male and female tuskens dress identical.

Han and Luke riding side by side in a tusken formation.

An Executor class bankrupting the Empire

An Executor class being 8 km long

etc (I'm certain someone with the book could do much better, thses are just quick ones off the top of my head)

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-06 10:27pm

Techincally, infinite errors. Darksabre retaines it's status no matter how stupid and at odds it is.

As a practical matter, it would probably depend on the mangitude.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-09-06 10:29pm

Ender wrote:How many unexplainable contradictions must there be in a novel or comic or game for it to be totally thrown out the airlock?

Infinity. Well, every single item in that source. Everything has "a nugget of truth." So if a novel is contradicted on every single point bar one, that one point is still usable. Basically, everything must be evaluated independently and being error-prone does not automatically invalidate the source.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-06 10:31pm

You can't throw out the entire novel, that's stupid. You just take the things that can't be explained and make up a logical explanation or, failing that, simply throw them out.

"Statements that male and female tuskens dress identical."
This book was written before AOTC mind you, and so it was up to speculation whether or not they did or did not dress differently. We can just throw this out.

"Han and Luke riding side by side in a tusken formation."
This may have just been a break from the norm. Depending on how far out they were from civilization (I don't have the book on me) there may not have been any reason to hide there numbers.

The Executor stuff is just crap that can be tossed out. Some truly ridiculous (an ECS bankrupting the two Death Star strong Empire) and some just poorly reseached (8km ECSs).

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2003-09-06 10:43pm

And the Darksabre itself. Like the Hutts could build something like that without anyone finding out.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-06 10:47pm

StormTrooperTR889 wrote:And the Darksabre itself. Like the Hutts could build something like that without anyone finding out.

That's debatable since the New Republic did find out.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-09-06 11:38pm

Actually, here's how to fix the problems in Darksaber

Tusken's dressing alike:
Different tribes might have different customs for dress.

Riding Side by Side:
Luke was using the Force on the Tuskens. To the Tusken's, they might have appeared to be in single file. Riding side by side would also leave 2 trails for a recovery team to follow

Executor bankruptcy and size
Well, the Executor class ship size will always be a debate afaik (is there a 'high canon source that gives a definate length? Like a movie, novelization thereof, or a ICS book?)
I agree with the bankrupting of the Empire qoute. Then again, it's entirely possible that Palaptine and company claimed the ship was that expensive to cover up the cost for the dozen or so other weapons projects going on at the time that were secret (Darktroopers, Phantom Fleet, Death Star 2, The Tarkin, etc)

The Darksaber
Given how the Hutt in question was building the Darksaber, it's not impossible.
All the mining and construction was being done on site by one of the most... unusual sounding creatures in Star Wars (kinda like a cross between the Hoojibs and the Borg collective mind is how I viewed them).

No massive supply shipments. It's a BIG galaxy, I doupt even the Empire or NR could have probots in every single starsystem keeping an on on them (indeed, that would be counter to the philosophy of the NR)
After all, the Penstar alignment is credited with having built 'Death Star 3'
(see Star Wars the Ride, for more information, http://theforce.net/TimeTales) and that was just 5 or so systems....

But also remember, the NR suspected they were up to something and did find it.
and like it mattered, the Hutts built a CRAPPY Death Star that didn't fire and got crushed anyway.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-06 11:41pm

Well, the Executor class ship size will always be a debate afaik (is there a 'high canon source that gives a definate length? Like a movie, novelization thereof, or a ICS book?)

It can be definitely scaled from the movie and the model. There are numerous people that have done so.

www.theforce.net/swtc/ has a great page on the five mile fallacy, I suggest you read it. There is no debate, the five mile figure is just plain wrong.

I agree with the bankrupting of the Empire qoute. Then again, it's entirely possible that Palaptine and company claimed the ship was that expensive to cover up the cost for the dozen or so other weapons projects going on at the time that were secret (Darktroopers, Phantom Fleet, Death Star 2, The Tarkin, etc)

Possible but those projects are still utterly dwarfed in scale by the Death Stars.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-06 11:49pm

Glove of Darth Vader is basically where most fans draw the line, even though officially it isn't Infinities.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-06 11:50pm

Ok, Solarauen, you say this: "I agree with the bankrupting of the Empire qoute"

The you seem to throw this in as an aside:

"Then again, it's entirely possible that Palaptine and company claimed the ship was that expensive to cover up the cost for the dozen or so other weapons projects going on at the time that were secret (Darktroopers, Phantom Fleet, Death Star 2, The Tarkin, etc)"

Are you saying you agree the Executor could've bankrupted the Empire but the above is an alternate explanation? Or am I just reading this incorrectly?

After all, the Penstar alignment is credited with having built 'Death Star 3' (see Star Wars the Ride, for more information, http://theforce.net/TimeTales) and that was just 5 or so systems....

You've gotta be shitting me. That can't possibly be canon.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-06 11:55pm

A rather vocal group at TF.net, led by Valiento and speaking about numerous secondary sources, and the Ride itself, concluded that.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-09-07 12:33am

An Executor class bankrupting the Empire

Bloody hell, Han's complacency about an Executor's presence at Endor should have shot that idea into swiss cheese by itself!

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-09-07 02:10pm

Lord of the Farce wrote:
An Executor class bankrupting the Empire

Bloody hell, Han's complacency about an Executor's presence at Endor should have shot that idea into swiss cheese by itself!

What about the Eclipse and the Eclipse II as well?

They treat the ESSD as some kind of end-all of power, whereas the Eclipse had a fucking superlaser! And, IIRC, the Eclipse was always stated at around 17.6km or something like that, while the ESSD was (in EU terms) 8km. The Eclipse was, if my memory serves, over twice as long as an ESSD, yet the ESSD is some mighty, all-powerful behemoth to the vets who faced the mighty Eclipse herself.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-09-07 02:23pm

Ender wrote:How many unexplainable contradictions must there be in a novel or comic or game for it to be totally thrown out the airlock?

Take for example Darksabre.

Statements that male and female tuskens dress identical.

Han and Luke riding side by side in a tusken formation.

An Executor class bankrupting the Empire

An Executor class being 8 km long

etc (I'm certain someone with the book could do much better, thses are just quick ones off the top of my head)

Didn't Darksabre have an SSD broadsiding Yavin IV and the result being a few burnt trees?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-07 03:24pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Glove of Darth Vader is basically where most fans draw the line, even though officially it isn't Infinities.

And it's also been effectively struck from continuity by the EU itself. The events have been over written by later material save a few minor points and it's in general completely ignored.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-07 03:52pm

Crazedwraith wrote:Didn't Darksabre have an SSD broadsiding Yavin IV and the result being a few burnt trees?

As well as shooting down one of its own TIE fighters.

Plus, it has ISDs and VSDs flitting around like fighters, blowing each other away with one or two shots each.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-09-07 04:20pm

Is it only KJA's "work" that is chocabloc full of errors?

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-09-07 04:24pm

2000AD wrote:Is it only KJA's "work" that is chocabloc full of errors?

Its not the only one that has errors but it has the most obvious and nasty ones. The X-Wing books have most of the star destroyer ones in: five-mile fallacy, sensor domes/shield genrators squads of x-wings taking out VSDs.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2003-09-07 04:30pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
Ender wrote:How many unexplainable contradictions must there be in a novel or comic or game for it to be totally thrown out the airlock?

Take for example Darksabre.

Statements that male and female tuskens dress identical.

Han and Luke riding side by side in a tusken formation.

An Executor class bankrupting the Empire

An Executor class being 8 km long

etc (I'm certain someone with the book could do much better, thses are just quick ones off the top of my head)
Didn't Darksabre have an SSD broadsiding Yavin IV and the result being a few burnt trees?

Yep, barely 1 kiloton blasts by using the "wiped out an acre of rainforest" line.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-07 04:35pm

Crazedwraith wrote: squads of x-wings taking out VSDs.

Multiple squadrons plus a light cruiser in Bacta War. I can't think of any other major VSDs in the series.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-09-07 05:59pm

Kuja wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote: squads of x-wings taking out VSDs.
Multiple squadrons plus a light cruiser in Bacta War. I can't think of any other major VSDs in the series.

2 squadrons, 1 of which wasn't armed with torpedos at all, not to mention the fact that that squadron of Deathseeds was duking it out with the Vic's fighter force, and 1 Alderaaninan War cruiser less than 1/2 the length of the victory, and probably with far less volume. They had <24 proton torps taking out a Vic's shields on a side, and the usual 'bridge hit kills ship' fallacy as well.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-09 10:57am

Kuja wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Didn't Darksabre have an SSD broadsiding Yavin IV and the result being a few burnt trees?
As well as shooting down one of its own TIE fighters.

Plus, it has ISDs and VSDs flitting around like fighters, blowing each other away with one or two shots each.

Oh yes, I also forgot:

In Darksaber, we are shown a society where new generations are creating by continuously cloning a set of DNA. Somehow, these people lose their genders in the process.

Can anyone NOT point out the problem with this?

and consequences: yeah, you're right.

Darth Mall · Post by **Darth Mall** » 2003-09-09 08:43pm

[quote="Kuja"][quote="Kuja"][quote="Crazedwraith"]
In Darksaber, we are shown a society where new generations are creating by continuously cloning a set of DNA. Somehow, these people lose their genders in the process.
quote]

I'm assuming your talking about the khommites. They could of just gtenetically modified out the sex of the individual. They have had at least 80 generations to do that, plus where does it say they have no sexes

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-10 12:31am

Darth Mall wrote:I'm assuming your talking about the khommites. They could of just gtenetically modified out the sex of the individual. They have had at least 80 generations to do that, plus where does it say they have no sexes

1st point: when you assume that your race has reached the pinnacle of evolution (which is why they began cloning themselves) you don't make changes.

2nd point: When Kyp asks the Dorsk 'family' if any of them have wives, Dorsk 81 laughs and says "there haven't been any genders here for over a thousand years". I'll have to run to the library for the exact quote, but KJA tried to make it pretty clear that the cloning caused the change.

Which is NONSENSE.

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