Kindred vs. Jedi

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Connor MacLeod
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

SirNitram wrote:This depends heavily on the round used. A HEAT round, if I remember right, is mostly a kinetic penetrator, and would indicate ridiculous potential against G forces and penetration(Rather like my Aberrant who got flung around by tank fire). A HESH, again, if I'm right, is thermal.
It might indicate TK-induced deceleration. FRom what I can say, a rough idea of projectile mass and velocity is maybe 8-15 kg for the projectile, and around 1200-2000 m/s muzzle velocity for a APFSDS (120 mm I think was what I found)

http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/Ammunition.htm

http://www.giat-industries.fr/asp/us/pd ... uni120.pdf


Assuming 1800 m/s muzzle velocity and a 12 kg projectile:

21,600 kg*m/s worth of momentum, kinetic energy of ~1.944e7 joules, or just under 20 megajoules.
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Post by lgot »

And the Ante hasn't even *fed* yet.... so I suppose I'm overestimating things somewhat. But still, I wouldn't imagine he'd be many orders of magnitude more resistant.
that is exactly that kind of stupid thing, So the Ante, with much more inteligence than we, just, weakend , stop to fight. He actually use his powers to fight, not to flee and hide. And of course, Technocracy Nuclear Bombs...yeah, oh That is exactly what they used to do...

Depends on how you mean "lifting" - the books I've all seen place the lifting capability (presumably "above the head") at 650 pounds for 5 dots of strength. This is 8-10 times *less* the weight than what lifting a car over your head requires. 650 pounds is roughly 300 kgs of weight.

You might be able to lift one end of the truck, but unless you have the source, I'd be less inclined to believe the claim.
what are you talking about ? Feats of strength is a system described , usual alongside other system such as climbing, shadowing, etc. You can get any basic book WW, such Werewolf:the Apocalypse, Vampire:The Masquerade, Changeling: The Dreaming, Wrairth: The Oblivion and Mage:The Ascension (the Dark age books have it as well). I can not be sure, for as i have said i do not have it, if it ins the 3th edition books.
Er, so?
Er, so...So, it is a example.
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Post by Darth_Shinji »

The one problem I see with your line of reasoning Connor is that force != aggerevate damage. For all we know is that the Cainates servely weakened Rravnos just enought for even the arm becuase thier attacks are acting on a supernatural level, no matter if they never showed high level of energy output. Aggeravate isn't a simply matter of calcing the damage as such things like sunlight are more dangerous than gunfire...

Also to the thread in general: Weren't those bombs used on Ravnos magical in some way as well? Thats what I've read in some reviews.

And does anybody know the rules for thermal damage? Is it the exact same as fire or sunlight?
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Post by SirNitram »

Given that aggravated damage for non-vampires(Such as their identically ruled game Aberrant) have thermal as agg., I'd say it's safe to say a lightsaber is agg. damage.
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Post by SecondStorm »

The nukes were "spirit nukes" for lack of better words.
Their primary target was supernatural creatures. That was the reason for the low mortal casualties.

The nukes were not even recognized by the public as a nuclear attack. The casualties were so low that they could blame it on a "hurricane".
Quite silly but it is the World of Darkness after all with the Technocracy in complete control of mass media.

Darth Shinji:
Heat = Fire = Aggravated damage. At least according to the rules.
Also its the heat that determines the difficulty to soak the fire.
Molten metal = difficulty 10(the highest possible).
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Post by Tatterdemalion »


that is exactly that kind of stupid thing, So the Ante, with much more inteligence than we, just, weakend , stop to fight. He actually use his powers to fight, not to flee and hide. And of course, Technocracy Nuclear Bombs...yeah, oh That is exactly what they used to do...
Chimerstry dreams. By the point Ravnos finally woke up he was pretty much incapable of discerning fantasy from reality. Not to mention, mechanics wise, not feeding in millenia is pretty much a guarentee to botch your frenzy roll.

Sounds like someones decided it's crap before actually reading the material...
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Post by Darth_Shinji »

K, All I could remember is that the vamps are immune to extremes in tempture, so I though maybe there would be a difference in fire/sunlight compared to straight thermal damage.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

lgot wrote: that is exactly that kind of stupid thing, So the Ante, with much more inteligence than we, just, weakend , stop to fight. He actually use his powers to fight, not to flee and hide. And of course, Technocracy Nuclear Bombs...yeah, oh That is exactly what they used to do...
A meaningless and irrelevant excuse.
what are you talking about ? Feats of strength is a system described , usual alongside other system such as climbing, shadowing, etc.
You never specified the book or source. Is this some revised edition, or did WW change the rules on strength since I last checked?
You can get any basic book WW, such Werewolf:the Apocalypse, Vampire:The Masquerade, Changeling: The Dreaming, Wrairth: The Oblivion and Mage:The Ascension (the Dark age books have it as well). I can not be sure, for as i have said i do not have it, if it ins the 3th edition books.
If they changed it, then I am wrong. But then again, you're not being very specific either, because I *have* examined the different books (even hunter.) So unless it changed with the revised books, I have not seen what you claim. I might also point out that you so far are the only person to claim this.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

SecondStorm wrote:The nukes were "spirit nukes" for lack of better words.
Their primary target was supernatural creatures. That was the reason for the low mortal casualties.
They were neutron bombs, modified to damage supernaturals admittedly, but they still had physically damaging effects. (They were only called "spirit nukes" by the Werewolf shaman, BTW.)
The nukes were not even recognized by the public as a nuclear attack. The casualties were so low that they could blame it on a "hurricane".
Quite silly but it is the World of Darkness after all with the Technocracy in complete control of mass media.
The "casualties" from the nuke weere under 100,000, but well over a million people were killed by Ravnos' awakening and the battle.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Note that regarding the tank rounds, thats roughly an order of magnitude less than the conservative estimates for sustained lightsaber output, so there should be little problem against most WoD vampire in terms of harming them (especially since lightsabers deliver that energy over a far smaller surface area than a tank round - they make microscopic cuts, or a series of microscopic cuts - at the very mnimium we're talking a few centimeters at most.)

I also have a question, do such tank rounds "knock down" the Cainnite? given the momentum of such a round as I estimated above, the Cainite hit by a single tank round, would be flung back at over at many tens or hundreds of meters per second. If they are not, this suggests some sort of TK "counter force" to keep them anchored (another indication of their TK/strength abilities.)
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Post by lgot »

Tatterdemalion:
Chimerstry dreams. By the point Ravnos finally woke up he was pretty much incapable of discerning fantasy from reality. Not to mention, mechanics wise, not feeding in millenia is pretty much a guarentee to botch your frenzy roll.
So ?Chimestry are Dreams. The Art of Ravnos is linked to the Chimera's reality of Changeling - It is stated that he learned it. And the fact the can not make the difference between both, does not make him be stupid and not avoid what he is doing. And This is silly, if he wake up, he had blood and frenzied vampires do not go "cursing" all his bloodlines. Very bad, very bad plot development. So Bad, that Ether Skemp, just after it, declared "It did not happened to the Werewolf line as it was described".


Connor:
A meaningless and irrelevant excuse.
Pretty much. From Justin Achilli, the developer that when started to rule, acted against the crossover materials, claimed it was stupid, did his best to make old books such Chaos Factor and Dirty Secrets of Black Hand (heavy crossover) to be useless, then the first thing he does to solve his problem is to use Crossover in a odd way (Technocracy does not go bombing, since they never did it, they have no idea what a Ravnos is, they do not control the region where the fight is, etc,etc,etc)
You never specified the book or source. Is this some revised edition, or did WW change the rules on strength since I last checked?
I never ? ????? "You can get any basic book WW, such Werewolf:the Apocalypse, Vampire:The Masquerade, Changeling: The Dreaming, Wrairth: The Oblivion and Mage:The Ascension (the Dark age books have it as well). I can not be sure, for as i have said i do not have it, if it ins the 3th edition books. " I named 5 BOOKS, I said it is not 3th edition (which means are 1 or 2th), I said where you find the rules!
They did not changed the rules, This rule exist since Day One. Strength rules are just not in the dots descriptions, the book rules are not in the dots distribution.
If they changed it, then I am wrong. But then again, you're not being very specific either, because I *have* examined the different books (even hunter.) So unless it changed with the revised books, I have not seen what you claim. I might also point out that you so far are the only person to claim this.
You get those books I listed, you can get Vampire:The Dark Ages (expect Feats of Strength there are not "Lift a truck" because there is no trucks then), go in the section "Dramatic System" that all of them have somewhere, where Climbing, Pursuit, Jumping, etc are described, there is Feats of Strength. Here, from my favorite basic book, Changeling: The Dreaming , pag. 231, "A character's Strength is often rolled alone, without a ability, when brute force is all that matters..." etc, then it goes on and there is a table with 15 dice pools, throw a truck, lift 6000 lbs.
I repeat, I do not have the system books of 3th edition to cheeck if they changed it, but that is the old rules, present from the begining.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

And as I have repeatedly demonstrated, those charts are at best a low end example of abilities. The feat of tossing a car requires more force than the mere lifting ability indicates (on top of that, I might add that the lifting ability would probably be greater, because in throwing the movement is in several dimnesions.)
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Post by SecondStorm »

So your basicly throwing the rule book out ?
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Post by lgot »

the 15 sucess is to throw a truck, not to lift a truck. Obviously, WW is a rather not logical system (they could have a more descritive chart for of course, lifting and throwing are not the same thing and to know when one can lift a truck (which will need less sucess) i would have to know how much heavy is a truck...Well, as I said WW are the kings of losing ends...
But what do you mean as a low example (you could have not desmontraded this chart to be anything, you did not knew about this chart until i told you) ?
I hardly can think few being in WW that would not require a WP roll to throw the truck (and since the base difficult for the WP roll is 9, it is not a sure thing to count on), Enkidu, old dust Mithras (Not counting the antediluvians of course) , a couple of Shapeshifters (Gogol First-fang, Some really big Gurhal or Mokole) and I left out of course Mages using spheres, Dragons, demons, chimeras, spirits etc.
Throwing a truck is really by rule a feat unique to the best , strongest, WW things...not a low end (unless you do not meant this way, then just ingore this)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

SecondStorm wrote:So your basicly throwing the rule book out ?
No, its a lower limit. I ask again, do you know what the fuck a lower limit is?
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Igot: The point of having these debates is deciding who would win based on objective comparisons. Hence you have to make calculations in order to do so with the information at hand (all the information.)

Some people for some reason believe that you can arbitrarily pick and choose among evidence, or throw it out, or use "artistic interpretation" or some other similar bullshit excuse in that analysis. I am not one of those, believing in some measure of consistency. Hence, I generate multiple results.
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Post by SecondStorm »

Could you please provide some evidence to your position instead of personal attacks.
Im getting bored of asking.
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Post by lgot »

the point of debate is who would win ??The point of debate is exchange of knowledge, not winning.
I think you are making a confusion, the chart does make the difference between how much is too lift and how much is to throw. And that is the not a lower limit - the chart says that is the best they can do with that (you need that sucess or do not. It is a upper limit).
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

So then the obvious answer is that we "ignore" what is inconsistent with the chart, even though the chart itself contradicts the stated lift weights. How convenient? :roll:
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

I should point out that while the discussion (as with the Alucard one) has been decided, its really boiled down to what a pair of fucking morons you two are when it comes to analysis. Much like it does when dealing with most idiots who like to pick and choose their evidence.
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Post by Tatterdemalion »


So ?Chimestry are Dreams. The Art of Ravnos is linked to the Chimera's reality of Changeling -
Never read Changeling so I couldn't comment on that, what I was talking about was the derangement listed in the Ravnos Clanbook.
It is stated that he learned it. And the fact the can not make the difference between both, does not make him be stupid and not avoid what he is doing.
No, it just makes him completely and utterly insane, and pretty much unable to interact with the real world in any but the most basic of ways. (Of course what's 'basic' to an ante seems to include chimerstry 10 but whatever.) Imagine being on a permanent acid trip for over a thousand years you'd be far from the paragon of rational thought.
And This is silly, if he wake up, he had blood and frenzied vampires do not go "cursing" all his bloodlines. Very bad, very bad plot development. So Bad, that Ethan Skemp, just after it, declared "It did not happened to the Werewolf line as it was described".
The slight crossover was purely a matter of convenience, the Technocracy are about the only group in the WoD with the resources to kill an ante. Besides technically the Technocracy were never mentioned by name, if you want it can just be 'a group of mages with access to high-tech weaponary.'
I don't really know anything about Ethan Skemp's statement but from the sound of it it was just White Wolf policy. In mage a similar thing occured, in that all that is said is that the technocracy destroyed an insanely powerful vampire in 1999. It's WoD policy not to make crossovers too elaborate or consistent with all lines. (E.g. The Devil's Night in the Demon metaplot never happend in other lines, despite being a huge world shaking event.)
In anycase who gives a shit about Justin Achilli and the vampire metaplot, whether or not the whole Ravnos debacle was a good idea is irrelevent to the debate. We're evaluating the power levels of higher end kindred so that we can predict how they would fair in a duel with a jedi. Feel free to reply to my argument, but I'll gracefully duck out now that I've stated my position before we highjack the thread.

---

Now back to the argument at hand. The feats of strength for Revised edition (which define what a character can accomplish WITHOUT A ROLL, and are assumed to automatically succeed) are:

Strength: 1/Crush a beer can/lift 40 lbs.
2/break a wooden chair/lift 100 lbs
3/break down a wooden door/lift 250 lbs.
4/break a 2x4 board//400 lbs.
5/break open a metal fire door/650 lbs.
6/throw a moter cycle/800 lbs.
7/flip over a small car/900 lbs.
8/break a 3' lead pipe/1000 lbs.
9/punch through a cement wall/1220 lbs.
10/rip open a steel drum/1500 lbs.

and so on until 15/throw a truck/6000 lbs.
Potence counts as extra strength for the purpose of this rule.
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Post by lgot »

Connor:

The chart does not contractid anything! The light weights in dots stated are 650 libs for 5 dots the chats does state exactly the same! And I should point out that you are unable to find in your rule book a rule and openly claimed "elders can lift a truck". Instead the chart is what WW tell what a Elder can do. Just because you do not read your book propelly do not come and create all this havoc for this. Why do not you accept that you are not aware of WW rulling things beyond 5dots already ? Instead you need to "win" by personal attacking...
Feel free to reply to my argument, but I'll gracefully duck out now that I've stated my position before we highjack the thread.
Totally, we can totally argue this in a different place. Actually I just said that - one line and a half - in my original post to explain why I was using 2th edition only. Not to argue about this...
Now back to the argument at hand. The feats of strength for Revised edition (which define what a character can accomplish WITHOUT A ROLL, and are assumed to automatically succeed) are:
ok, the Feats of Strength are still exactly the same, they did not changed it at all (I wonder why there is people who play WW and is not aware of this old old rule). Of course Connor can see the chart only function is to go beyond 5 dots and to open the possibility of use of WP (the roll) to achive a little more. It does not contradict anything previous stated by WW.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

From what I observed (especially with the throwing of vehicles any apperciable distance - ie more than a couple of meters, and things like tearing cars in half or wrenching lamp posts from the ground - both the latter from the strength chart in the MtA rulebook) - yeah it does, unless you want to cover your ears and scream loudly while ignoring basic concepts of force and momentum. :roll:
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Post by Xisiqomelir »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Stravo wrote: This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I look in the books I'll find more insanely powerful uses for the high level disciplines. For the Antedeluvians, the area of effect is most often cities or nations. For instance, Malkav slumbers beneath the ME and his dreams 'leak' into the minds of mortals in the ME causing them to be even more violent and insane.
Be my guest. I welcome more information.
*SPOILERS*

Dont read if you're a V:TM player who doesn't want to know about the higher Disciplines.











The Vampire Players Guide, 2nd Edition

Animalism, Level Ten

Army of Beasts

This power enables the character to summon all of the creatures within a certain area, and to become one with all of them. While her body remains stationary, she takes control of each animal summoned as though she were that animal. In effect she becomes both general and soldier, seeing through the eyes of whatever horde of creatures she has called. No special concentration is required to control the animals - they are she and she is they.


Auspex, Level Ten

Pulse of the Canaille

This is a more powerful variation of the earlier Precognition power. (Note: This other power, level nine Auspex allows the Kindred to see into the future up to a year ahead, provided that no vampire or mortral controlled by a vampire takes action deliberately intended to change the future) Pulse of the Canaille not only allows the character to sense what will happen in a certain place and time, but enables the character to sense the current moods, trends, attitudes and directions in which entire groups of mortrals are heading. This power also enables the character to sense who influences or controls the affected mortals, and to identify these secret masters.

Dominate, Level Ten

Puppet Master

The character is able to Dominate another so completely that the victim will act as if he is the character, taking actions just as the character would. He has in fact become the Dominator, and his personality has been infused with that of the master. A link is maintained between the two; thus, the puppet is intuitively aware of what the master needs and desires.


Obfuscate, Level Ten

Memory's Fading Glimpse

With this power, a vampire can erase all traces of her existence from the annals of time and mind, leaving absolutely no evidence that she ever existed - everyone simply forgets about her. The effect is automatic and complete, affecting everyone in the world except for those with 10 Auspex or it's magical equivalent. The character is not invisible, but is simply not recognized and not remembered.

Though written references to the character do not vanish and videotapes of the character do not go blank, all who read the references or see the images will hypnotically overlook them (though years and years later the images and words may return to their consciousness)

Presence, Level Ten

Dream World

A character with this potent power can affect the dreams of everyone in the world (though she can focus on one city, or even on one individual if he so wishes). The character can send symbols, themes, stories, images, anything she wants, even nightmares.

Protean, Level Ten

Body of the Sun

With a great expenditure of vitae, the character can turn his body into an invulnerable ball of fire, burning and blinding all around him, While in this form, the character cannot be hurt by anything physical - whatever is not destroyed by the flames and heat passes safely through this gaseous form. The character maintains his old form and weight, but his appearance is hazy and unclear.

Thaumaturgy, Level Ten Ritual

Invulnerable Weakness

This a jealously guarded ritual, allegedly known only to Tremere himself. The ritual takes an entire year to cast, and a massive number of complex components to complete. The most important component is a large diamond bathed in the sun's rays for an entire, cloudless dau and engraved with the symbols of life and death. This gem is then consumed on the final night of the ritual. It will stay inside the Warlock's body until it slowly and mystically decomposes after a period of Stamina + Occult (difficulty 4) years. During that time (or until the stone is removed from the caster's body) the caster is immune to fire, heat and sunlight. Furthermore, the vampire can remain awake during the day for Stamina + Fortitude (difficulty depens on the time of day) hours. (Deleted bit about how the caster's blood is better for diablerie)

Chimerstry, Level Ten

Reality

This alows the illusion master to trap another in an alternate reality. Until the victim escapes or is let free, she wanders around in a universe where everything from it's appearance to its physical laws are defined by the wielder of this power.

Necromancy, Level Ten

Death Pact

This power allows the character to act as though he were the Prince of Darkness himself. The character drafts a written pact with the target, in which the character agrees to serve as needed. This pact is then sealed by a drop of the target's blood. If the character upholds his part of the deal, the victim's spirit becomes a complete slave to the character upon death. The character need not roll to summon or compel the spirit.

Obeah, Level Ten

Resurrection

This power allows the character to summon the soul of a recently dead human back to its body.

Quietus, Level Ten

Immaculate Vitae

By using this Discipline to alter his blood, the character is able to Blood Bond drinkers to him even if they only once drink one Blood Point of his vitae.

Serpentis, Level Ten

Mark of Damnation

By placing her hand on the intended target's forehead, the user of this power burns a hideous brand into the target's body and soul.

Sadly, I don't have my copy of The Guide to the Sabbat handy. If anyone else does, they can dig up what high level Vicissitude and Obtenebration do for you.
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Post by Tatterdemalion »

While I don't have it in print, I know for a fact that Vicissitude 10 is Reform, a power which makes its weilder indestructable. Even if burned to ash, he'll simply reform. The only way to destroy a kindred with reform is via diablerie (and thanks to Vicissitude 7, you'll need a huge amount of Fortitude just to begin that.)

Note: In revised edition level 10 powers have not, and never will be, printed. Mostly because the devolopers wanted to make the antes more obscure and X-filesy. Hence level 10 disciplines are technically no longer canon.
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