A loaf of bread, a jug of Führerwein, and thou....

[Glocksman]

Story

Germany has complained to Italy about a winery that labels its bottles with portraits of Adolf Hitler, the Justice Ministry said Friday.

Justice Minister Brigitte Zypries recently wrote to her Italian counterpart to say the labels are "contemptible and tasteless" and asked him to see what could be done to stop their production, spokeswoman Christiane Wirtz said.

The so-called "Fuehrerwein" bottles, part of vintner Alessandro Lunardelli's "historic line," features 14 different labels portraying Hitler with slogans like "Sieg Heil" and other Nazis.

The line also includes labels with portraits of other infamous characters of history, such as Italy's former fascist dictator Benito Mussolini and former Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin. Napoleon, the Yalta conference, Marxist revolutionary Che Guevara and others are featured as well.

In a 2001 interview, Lunardelli told The Associated Press the labels were "a great marketing success."

The wine is available legally in Italy, where it can also be purchased on the Internet, Wirtz said. Its sale is illegal in Germany, where products bearing images or slogans from the Nazi era are outlawed

I have one thing to say to the German Justice Minister: Get Over It! Goddamn would-be censors piss me off.

What this guy has done is to use notorious historical figures on his labels in order to generate interest in his wines. Unless the profits are being rerouted to Bormann and ODESSA hiding out in Argentina, this business is doing nothing wrong.

I hardly think that anyone, including the most blockheaded Bavarian, will start shouting 'Heil Hitler' after seeing a picture of Adi on a bottle of Italian vino.


This is much ado over nothing.

[Enforcer Talen]

it suits my sense of humour.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I find this quite comical as well. ROFL!

[Dahak]

It *is* frigging illegal in Germany. And I find it extremely disgusting. It is bad enough that you can buy this in Italy, but I won't accept that you could buy it in Germany.
We Germans are a bit sensitive in this matter.
So for one the Justice ministy is doing something good.

[salm]

i´d like to see glocksmann´s reaction on whine labled with a smiling "ozzy bin laden".

it is disgusting.

[Colonel Olrik]

i´d like to see glocksmann´s reaction on whine labled with a smiling "ozzy bin laden".

Actually, such a bottle would probably be a great success among every redneck "lets go target shooting" in america.

And I agree, it is disgusting. Europeans have a more severe view of what to do with nazism and racism than most americans, because, well, our continent was destroyed once because of it.

[Glocksman]

i´d like to see glocksmann´s reaction on whine labled with a smiling "ozzy bin laden".

It's called free speech.
If the Italian winemaker wants to put bin Laden on a bottle, let him.
There's no law saying that I have to purchase one.

Though I probably would buy one as a collector's item to put on a shelf next to the Hitler and Che Guevara bottles and call it my 'Three Evils' collection.

. It is bad enough that you can buy this in Italy, but I won't accept that you could buy it in Germany.

I didn't think you could legally buy this in Germany?


A question for the Germans.

I know Nazi symbology is illegal, but what about Communist era symbology? Stalin's death toll makes Hitler look like a beginner at the art of genocide. What about symbols from the former DDR?

Does the law ban all totalitarian images and symbology, or just Nazi era ones?

[Dahak]

i´d like to see glocksmann´s reaction on whine labled with a smiling "ozzy bin laden".

It's called free speech.
If the Italian winemaker wants to put bin Laden on a bottle, let him.
There's no law saying that I have to purchase one.

Though I probably would buy one as a collector's item to put on a shelf next to the Hitler and Che Guevara bottles and call it my 'Three Evils' collection.

Free speech isn't absolute. There are limits.

. It is bad enough that you can buy this in Italy, but I won't accept that you could buy it in Germany.

I didn't think you could legally buy this in Germany?

That'S what brought our justice miniter on the plan. They sell it now over the internet, which means it can be bought in Germany.

A question for the Germans.

I know Nazi symbology is illegal, but what about Communist era symbology? Stalin's death toll makes Hitler look like a beginner at the art of genocide. What about symbols from the former DDR?

Does the law ban all totalitarian images and symbology, or just Nazi era ones?

It bans all symbology of Nazism. As well as the Auschwitz lie and Holocaust negating, "Hitler greeting" and the like.
There's no ban on communist symbology or DDR ones.

[Peregrin Toker]

[Does the law ban all totalitarian images and symbology, or just Nazi era ones?

It bans all symbology of Nazism. As well as the Auschwitz lie and Holocaust negating, "Hitler greeting" and the like.
There's no ban on communist symbology or DDR ones.[/quote]

Just while we're at nations banning the iconography of extremist movements originating there - is there a ban on the hammer-and-sickle in Russia or any former communist countries?

[Glocksman]

They sell it now over the internet, which means it can be bought in Germany.

What about Customs?

Don't they stop it at the border, or is there no customs inspections between EU nations?

[Faram]

What about Customs?

Don't they stop it at the border, or is there no customs inspections between EU nations?

That's right No customs.

[Stormbringer]

Free speech isn't absolute. There are limits.

So only goverment approved speech? And you complain about the US...


I think the wine is in poor taste. But making it criminal is ludicrous. Far better just to organize a boycott if it's that offensive. But legislating and litigating it away is just silly and infringes on his right to make an ass of himself.

[Sea Skimmer]

[quote="Dahak"]
Free speech isn't absolute. There are limits.
[quote]

In which case it isn't free

[HemlockGrey]

Free speech isn't absolute. There are limits.

But this is absurd. What do history textbooks do when they talk about WWII? Or does everyone tiptoe around the subject, never mentioning it?

[Glocksman]

What about Customs?

Don't they stop it at the border, or is there no customs inspections between EU nations?

That's right No customs.

Then wouldn't this case set the precedent that the EU nation with the most restrictive laws can de facto impose them on others if they claim the offending material is sold over the internet to even one person in their country?

Let's change the scenario around a little.

Say after Hungary joins the EU, they ban all communist symbology because of the memories of Communist repression.
There's a company in Germany that does a healthy business selling Che Guevara T-Shirts and posters over the internet.
Hungary asks Germany to prosecute the businessman for violating Hungarian law.

What's the response then?

[Colonel Olrik]

Free speech isn't absolute. There are limits.

In which case it isn't free

Racial hatred speech is not allowed in the EU. You may cry violation of free speech as loudly as you want, I honestly don't care and fully agree with the idea. Unless you can convince me why it's such a stupid idea, and how forbidding nazi groups will surely lead to a fascist society.

[Colonel Olrik]

Say after Hungary joins the EU, they ban all communist symbology because of the memories of Communist repression.
There's a company in Germany that does a healthy business selling Che Guevara T-Shirts and posters over the internet.
Hungary asks Germany to prosecute the businessman for violating Hungarian law.

What's the response then?

The businessman would be forced to ensure that he doesn't sell to Hungary. I don't see the problem, it happens already. There are plenty of drugs which are legal in Holand, and illegal in the rest of the E.U. Therefore, people who deal with the stuff in Holand are not allowed to sell it abroad.

[Stravo]

Free speech isn't absolute. There are limits.

In which case it isn't free

Racial hatred speech is not allowed in the EU. You may cry violation of free speech as loudly as you want, I honestly don't care and fully agree with the idea. Unless you can convince me why it's such a stupid idea, and how forbidding nazi groups will surely lead to a fascist society.

And when some other organization comes into power and decides to lump in an opposition idealogy as hate speech where does it end? The moment you start banning or restricting speech for one group, no matter how spiteful or hated then you open the door for such bannings on other groups depending who is in power.

You also are lacking one advantage that free speech has on hate groups, when it exposes their bullshit for all to see, they lose power. Why are there growing skin head and hate groups in Europe? Why are there routine anti semtic acts in France?

Europeans seem to think that by banning something they have cured it or made it go away. Same with dealing with dictators and aggresisve governments, if we ignore them they might go away....were any lessons learned from the slaughterhouse of the early half of the 20th century??

[Stormbringer]

Racial hatred speech is not allowed in the EU. You may cry violation of free speech as loudly as you want, I honestly don't care and fully agree with the idea. Unless you can convince me why it's such a stupid idea, and how forbidding nazi groups will surely lead to a fascist society.

But it's not free speech. And it can potentially be abused. It'd be nice to muzzle the racist shitheads but the potential for abuse is high.

I'd rather have free speech, plain and simple.

[Colonel Olrik]

And when some other organization comes into power and decides to lump in an opposition idealogy as hate speech where does it end?

The E.U states are functional democracies, with an educated population. How would such an obviously fascist group gain power and how would such laws pass the Constitutional courts? Even Le Pen would be a moderate democrat compared with that organization.

And, in the unlikely event of it happening, no free speech laws would suffice. Do you think Germany's democratic Constitution stopped Hitler?

The moment you start banning or restricting speech for one group, no matter how spiteful or hated then you open the door for such bannings on other groups depending who is in power.

Slippery slope. Nazism is inherently evil, and recognized as such. Banning it doesn't equate opening a door to banning other organizations, not if the legal or political systems still work.

You also are lacking one advantage that free speech has on hate groups, when it exposes their bullshit for all to see, they lose power. Why are there growing skin head and hate groups in Europe? Why are there routine anti semtic acts in France?

First, it's not all over Europe. France has Le Pen, but he's no Nazi, and the fact that he's extremelly populist didn't prevent him from being smashed by a moron like Chiraq. There are some esporadic violent cases due to racism, but I don't think it's worse than say, in the US.

Secondly, some ideas can be recognized as bullshit without having them spreading their bull at our doors. We don't have KKK people holding meetings throughout our cities, thank God for that.

Europeans seem to think that by banning something they have cured it or made it go away. Same with dealing with dictators and aggresisve governments, if we ignore them they might go away....were any lessons learned from the slaughterhouse of the early half of the 20th century??

Yes, far right extremism allied to extreme famine and desperation is bad. Hitler gained power by democratic means, in the middle of a desperate crisis. The repetition of both events in the E.U is very unlikely.

[HemlockGrey]

Racial hatred speech is not allowed in the EU. You may cry violation of free speech as loudly as you want, I honestly don't care and fully agree with the idea. Unless you can convince me why it's such a stupid idea, and how forbidding nazi groups will surely lead to a fascist society.

Putting Stravo's complaints aside, how is a picture of Hitler on a bottle 'racial hatred speech', and why should it be banned? Again, do German history textbooks just gloss over WWII without mentioning the Nazis by name or something?

[Colonel Olrik]

Putting Stravo's complaints aside, how is a picture of Hitler on a bottle 'racial hatred speech', and why should it be banned?

Actually, the complaint wasn't about it promoting racial hatred, but being "contemptible and tasteless". I was answering in reply to SS, who was talking about the free speech concept. About the bottle, well, Germans take Nazism very seriously. ( your reaction would probably be the same if you saw a beer bottle with a burning american flag).

Again, do German history textbooks just gloss over WWII without mentioning the Nazis by name or something?

I seriously doubt that, and if you can't see the difference between learning about your country past mistakes and seeing the ones responsible for the uncountable deaths glorified or popularized in any manner, I suggest you think a bit more about the matter.

I, for once, would see bloody red if a portuguese or other E.U company launched a branch after old Salazar, together with his pic and everything. Not because I'm ignorant, but because I know what he did to my country.

[Dahak]

Free speech isn't absolute. There are limits.

So only goverment approved speech? And you complain about the US...


I think the wine is in poor taste. But making it criminal is ludicrous. Far better just to organize a boycott if it's that offensive. But legislating and litigating it away is just silly and infringes on his right to make an ass of himself.

It has been, and will always be, illegal to show of Nazi paraphernalia. And the authorities have to enforce those laws.

Freedom of speech, or as it is written in our constitution: freedom of expression, only runs so far, as long as it isn't infringing on other people's personal rights, which is of higher value to out constitution. This is codified in
Article 2:
(1) Every person shall have the right to free development of his personality insofar as he does not violate the rights of others or offend against the constitutional order or the moral law.
(2) Every person shall have the right to life and physical integrity. Freedom of the person shall be inviolable. These rights may be interfered with only pursuant to a law.

and in Article 5:
(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.
(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honor.

[Dahak]

Racial hatred speech is not allowed in the EU. You may cry violation of free speech as loudly as you want, I honestly don't care and fully agree with the idea. Unless you can convince me why it's such a stupid idea, and how forbidding nazi groups will surely lead to a fascist society.

Putting Stravo's complaints aside, how is a picture of Hitler on a bottle 'racial hatred speech', and why should it be banned? Again, do German history textbooks just gloss over WWII without mentioning the Nazis by name or something?

Our past is dealt with in excruciating detail, showing the full terror and utter evil that was done by our ancestors.

Schools (teaching in general) *must* deal and talk about Nazism.
But the possession, showing, et al. of Nazi parapharnelia is illegal, unless it is shown in a scientific way, like school books, or documentaries, et al.

[Andrew J.]

Dahak: is it possible to buy a copy of Mein Kampf or borrow one from a library in Germany?