DNA tests sought 'for every Briton'

[MKSheppard]

Well, that wouldn't affect scrap, because it is your Genetic Fingerprint on file, and not your genome.

Uh huh, and do you have any assurance that they won't just capture your
entire genome for the hell of it? Or that a future bill will be passed authorizing
the re-testing and resampling of the previously collected material, "in
order to detect heridetary diseases before they start"

[BoredShirtless]

Well, that wouldn't affect scrap, because it is your Genetic Fingerprint on file, and not your genome.

Uh huh, and do you have any assurance that they won't just capture your
entire genome for the hell of it? Or that a future bill will be passed authorizing
the re-testing and resampling of the previously collected material, "in
order to detect heridetary diseases before they start"

Do you know what a slippery slop is?

[MarkIX]

Do you know what a red herring is?

Are you saying my post was a red herring, or that I should have used the words to describe your point? I'm not very imaginative, so if you were being scarastic perhaps some tags next time.

[InnerBrat]

Uh huh, and do you have any assurance that they won't just capture your
entire genome for the hell of it?

Apart from it taking a few orders of magitude more in terms of time and moeny, you mean?

Or that a future bill will be passed authorizing
the re-testing and resampling of the previously collected material, "in
order to detect heridetary diseases before they start"

Slippery slope.

[BoredShirtless]

Do you know what a red herring is?

Are you saying my post was a red herring, or that I should have used the words to describe your point? I'm not very imaginative, so if you were being scarastic perhaps some tags next time.

Your point, that bodies are more important then cars, is a total red herring.

[MKSheppard]

Do you know what a slippery slop is?

Can you ABSOLUTELY gurantee me only specific DNA sequences revelant
to your identity will be captured, or that they will NEVER at some
point have all the DNA retested to capture more information?

With a fingerprint, all they know is who I am, with DNA, they
know virtually everything about me, from who I am, to what
diseases I'm susceptible to, who my parents are, etc?

Did you ever stop to think about how much easier it would have been for
Nazi Germany to do it's ethnic cleansing program if they had had modern
genetic testing methods to prove anecestry? No more "my parent was NOT a Jew, but an Aryan!" trick that allowed many Jews to get out of
Germany and/or survive the Holocaust.

"Nein! Your DNA test shows that your parent is indeed who we say it is!
Off to the KZ with you!"

[MKSheppard]

Apart from it taking a few orders of magitude more in terms of time and moeny, you mean?

Genetic typing is advancing very rapidly. What was expensive now shall
be cheep in a few short years. I should know, I live close to a biotech
corridor, and almost every other week, the Business section is writing about
another company with a hot new approach to DNA, et al.

Slippery slope.

Uh hum, I guess you have just too much faith in the government to do
the "right thing" as opposed to the greedy corporations. News Flash:
governments are made up of greedy, assholish individuals with their own
agendas.

[InnerBrat]

Can you ABSOLUTELY gurantee me only specific DNA sequences revelant
to your identity will be captured, or that they will NEVER at some
point have all the DNA retested to capture more information?

The recording of your genome is a complately different process that has nothing to do with the topic on hand.

Did you ever stop to think about how much easier it would have been for
Nazi Germany to do it's ethnic cleansing program if they had had modern
genetic testing methods to prove anecestry? No more "my parent was NOT a Jew, but an Aryan!" trick that allowed many Jews to get out of
Germany and/or survive the Holocaust.

"Nein! Your DNA test shows that your parent is indeed who we say it is!
Off to the KZ with you!"

Except there's no 'Aryan' gene, any more than there's a 'gay' gene or a 'bloody minded moron' gene.

[MarkIX]

Your point, that bodies are more important then cars, is a total red herring.

Its not my point, its your point but you stated in the way "your body is just like your car" so if its a red herring why did you bring it up? Anybody can acuse somebody else of using logical fallacies and in this case the accusation is a red herring. Which of course I just fell for.

[MKSheppard]

Except there's no 'Aryan' gene, any more than there's a 'gay' gene or a 'bloody minded moron' gene.

*sigh*

Your DNA shows who is your TRUE parent. A popular trick for Jews and
half-Jews was to disavow their mother, saying that their father was not
their mother's husband, but in reality an Aryan. DNA Typing would have
blown that trick out of the water if the Nazis had had it back then.

[BoredShirtless]

Do you know what a slippery slop is?

Can you ABSOLUTELY gurantee me only specific DNA sequences revelant
to your identity will be captured, or that they will NEVER at some
point have all the DNA retested to capture more information?

Can you guarantee that the government, if it really wanted too, couldn't get our DNA without us knowing anyway? Mandatory vaccination against a government introduced "super germ" is one example. It's pointless to dwell on possible conspiracy theories, because really, you could build one against every government decision. If you don't like the "unknown" which comes with living in a civilised society, I suggest you live in the bush and look after yourself.

With a fingerprint, all they know is who I am, with DNA, they
know virtually everything about me, from who I am, to what
diseases I'm susceptible to, who my parents are, etc?

So? Why is knowing your identity so bad? It would really help your argument if you could show how the government could use this information against you.

Did you ever stop to think about how much easier it would have been for
Nazi Germany to do it's ethnic cleansing program if they had had modern
genetic testing methods to prove anecestry? No more "my parent was NOT a Jew, but an Aryan!" trick that allowed many Jews to get out of
Germany and/or survive the Holocaust.

"Nein! Your DNA test shows that your parent is indeed who we say it is!
Off to the KZ with you!"

This is an Appeal to Fear, as the benefits of mandatory DNA testing outweigh the extremely slim possibility of it being used in another Holocaust.

[MKSheppard]

If you don't like the "unknown" which comes with living in a civilised society, I suggest you live in the bush and look after yourself.

So I guess we should all bow down before the government, since it
by your definition, knows what is best for us?

This is an Appeal to Fear, as the benefits of mandatory DNA testing outweigh the extremely slim possibility of it being used in another Holocaust.

You are remarkably optimistic, you know. Irrationality, Stupidity, etc
will always exist as long as man does. Why give them more tools to use
against us?

[InnerBrat]

Why give them more tools to use against us?

Because the certainty of ebing able to catch more serious criminals outweighs your Orwellian paranoia?

[MKSheppard]

Because the certainty of ebing able to catch more serious criminals outweighs your Orwellian paranoia?

We could get rid of rape if we just chemically castrated every male
in the country, likewise, we could get rid of kidnapping if we implanted tracking chips into everyone. Just because it looks good on paper,
doesn't mean it works.

[InnerBrat]

We could get rid of rape if we just chemically castrated every male in the country, likewise, we could get rid of kidnapping if we implanted tracking chips into everyone.

Nice false analogies, there, Shep.

Just because it looks good on paper, doesn't mean it works.

But the DNA database does work. They're merely talking about widening the net.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Wow. Godwins Law invoked and yet we still argue this paranoid delusion of an argument.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what the mean gov't would possibly want with an entire genomic copy of my DNA and not just a "fingerprint" sample of even regular mRNA or something.

[InnerBrat]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what the mean gov't would possibly want with an entire genomic copy of my DNA and not just a "fingerprint" sample of even regular mRNA or something.

Because Big Brother wants to wipe out everyone who has the 'I hate BB' gene, you fool!

[CelesKnight]

We live in a civilised society, and as part of living in one we surrendered our rights to life and body to the State. Think of it as a loan: the State loans us these rights. But as soon as it wants it back, it will take it.

I can't speak for Britian or Germany, but in America, the opposite is true. The people loan the government rights.

No. Rights are defined by the society you live in. If you lived outside a society, you would define them yourself.

Your two statements aren't even slightly related. Even if rights are defined by society, that doesn't imply that the state can alter them at will, or even that the state itself can alter them at all. (Society <> State) Although, the people as a whole could grant the state more rights (actually, I suppose the true word would be privileges) or remove some of the state's rights.

The fact that the people grant the government limited rights/abilities/privileges/whateverYouWantToCallIt isn't just my idea or the idea of some fringe libertarians, it's central to American law. Like I said in my first post, it may not apply to others, but I thought you would be interested in the knowing one of the underlying differences philisopical between where you're coming from and where your American opponent was likely coming from.

[MKSheppard]

Nice false analogies, there, Shep.

I'm just curious at what point your government is going to stop assraping
your personal freedoms. You've got the Official Secrecy Acts, that allow
the goverment to suppress the press, you've virtually banned pretty much
anything short of a sharp stick, and you have a network of cameras in
downtown london that would make the KGB envious, and now this proposal
to put everyone's DNA into a national database...

Johnny Asscroft has nothing on John Bull.

[BoredShirtless]

I can't speak for Britian or Germany, but in America, the opposite is true. The people loan the government rights.

No. Rights are defined by the society you live in. If you lived outside a society, you would define them yourself.

Your two statements aren't even slightly related. Even if rights are defined by society, that doesn't imply that the state can alter them at will, or even that the state itself can alter them at all. (Society <> State) Although, the people as a whole could grant the state more rights (actually, I suppose the true word would be privileges) or remove some of the state's rights.

Straw man. I said the State loans rights, defined by Society, to us, not that the State can change them willy nilly. I use the word "loan" because the State can take them away, against our will. This destroys RedImperators argument that our rights to life and body are inalienable and cannot be "touched" by the State.

The fact that the people grant the government limited rights/abilities/privileges/whateverYouWantToCallIt isn't just my
idea or the idea of some fringe libertarians, it's central to American law.

Yes, the People grant powers to the Government. And one of those powers is, the ability to strip our rights.

Like I said in my first post, it may not apply to others, but I thought you would be interested in the knowing one of the underlying differences philisopical between where you're coming from and where your American opponent was likely coming from.

I must be slow, because I don't see any difference. Maybe if you could please explain it again, this time without distorting my own position.

[BoredShirtless]

Nice false analogies, there, Shep.

I'm just curious at what point your government is going to stop assraping
your personal freedoms. You've got the Official Secrecy Acts, that allow
the goverment to suppress the press, you've virtually banned pretty much
anything short of a sharp stick, and you have a network of cameras in
downtown london that would make the KGB envious, and now this proposal
to put everyone's DNA into a national database...

Johnny Asscroft has nothing on John Bull.

How is your personal freedom getting assraped? It's a fucking DNA test, not a straight jacket attached to a fence post.

[BoredShirtless]

If you don't like the "unknown" which comes with living in a civilised society, I suggest you live in the bush and look after yourself.

So I guess we should all bow down before the government, since it by your definition, knows what is best for us?

No, only we know what is best for us. But what is best for Society is the issue here, and that is up to the Government to impliment.

This is an Appeal to Fear, as the benefits of mandatory DNA testing outweigh the extremely slim possibility of it being used in another Holocaust.

You are remarkably optimistic, you know. Irrationality, Stupidity, etc will always exist as long as man does.

So?

Why give them more tools to use against us?

It would be used against criminals only. And give it to them because this tool will improve society.

[Zac Naloen]

and you have a network of cameras in
downtown london that would make the KGB envious

Security cameras dude.. you know.. too provide security

Manchester and all the other major cities also have these camera networks... they are well documented, we know they are there... they catch criminals.

Its hardly infringing on anyones rights.