Do the democrats have a chance in 2004?

[CelesKnight]

If you think that he's done nothing but mess up, then you're way, way out of touch with the American electorate--the people who matter in this context.

Then the American electorate is way, way out of touch with reality, which still matters a great deal.

How ironic-- that's a fairly popular American opinion of much of the rest of the world. We can unzip our flies, grab a ruler, and try and determine who's right, but I doubt it will solve anything. In the end, time will tell who has the better grip on reality.

[Iceberg]

Bush has already won by virtue of (A) his unquestioned incumbence, (B) the stereotypes of the Republican Party, and (C) the "Terror psyche" now ingrained in most Americans.

The bottom line? People like Dean don't make us feel safe. Period. Even at his worst - lampooned as a gun-toting, bible-thumping Texan cowboy -, Bush still walks away looking far more the "fighter" than any Democratic competitor. He's managed to revive the Reaganistic spirit: a Republican administration is a defense/security-savvy administration.

Ah yes, the myth of Bush's toughness on national defense. Like the fact that Bush promised to fund security measures like first responders and port inspections, then failed to follow through. Or the fact that he cut - slashed to the bone, actually - US aid to Afghanistan a year after pledging to help them rebuild their country. Or the fact that he's paying for a multitude of shiny new weapons programs - some of them of very dubious utility - at a time when soldier pay and retention are at historic lows.

When it comes to defense, as they say in Texas, this president is all hat and no cattle. Given a choice between a president who talks tough and one who speaks softly while carrying a big stick, I'll take the real deal, thanks. It's also becoming extremely evident that while President Bush is big on using the military, he has very little knowledge of strategy or logistics, and a disturbing tendency to override the expertise of officers with decades in the service.

[Worlds Spanner]

Bush has already won by virtue of (A) his unquestioned incumbence, (B) the stereotypes of the Republican Party, and (C) the "Terror psyche" now ingrained in most Americans.

Sounds like chicken counting to me. We're still 14 months out. Let's talk after election day, hmm?

[Worlds Spanner]

try telling that To Curtis Mathis, the last American TV producer. They made the best quality longest lasting televisions and video equipment in the world. their televisions lasted 30 years. That however was reflected in their price. the problem is, especially with technologicaly advanced goods, is that people don't want to keep a tv or dvd player or camcorder for 20 years. why pay $600 for a long lasting brand when you can buy a daiwoo or a changhuang (real brand names by the way) for $100 and it will work fine for five years, and when better technology comes out , in five years you but a new one. over the course of that same 20 years you have 4 televisions, spend less and at the end of the 20 years you have a more advanced product with better performance and more features than you would have if you had stuck with the quality long lasting brand. Thats what killed curtis mathis (and god knows how many others).

You're exactly right about technology. But boots, T-shirts, and such don't really change much.

The best and sturdiest boots are just as good 40 years after they were made as when they were new. I should think about getting a pair.

[Drooling Iguana]

If you think that he's done nothing but mess up, then you're way, way out of touch with the American electorate--the people who matter in this context.

Then the American electorate is way, way out of touch with reality, which still matters a great deal.

How ironic-- that's a fairly popular American opinion of much of the rest of the world. We can unzip our flies, grab a ruler, and try and determine who's right, but I doubt it will solve anything. In the end, time will tell who has the better grip on reality.

Hmmm... So on the one side you've got America, and on the other side you've got the entire remaining population of the planet Earth (with a couple of exceptions.) Tough call.

[Joe]

Then the American electorate is way, way out of touch with reality, which still matters a great deal.

How ironic-- that's a fairly popular American opinion of much of the rest of the world. We can unzip our flies, grab a ruler, and try and determine who's right, but I doubt it will solve anything. In the end, time will tell who has the better grip on reality.

Hmmm... So on the one side you've got America, and on the other side you've got the entire remaining population of the planet Earth (with a couple of exceptions.) Tough call.

Nice appeal to popularity.

[CelesKnight]

Then the American electorate is way, way out of touch with reality, which still matters a great deal.

How ironic-- that's a fairly popular American opinion of much of the rest of the world. We can unzip our flies, grab a ruler, and try and determine who's right, but I doubt it will solve anything. In the end, time will tell who has the better grip on reality.

Hmmm... So on the one side you've got America, and on the other side you've got the entire remaining population of the planet Earth (with a couple of exceptions.) Tough call.

Are you done with that ruler yet?

[Coyote]

Bear in mind I have only skimmed this topic, but as for Dean being too far to the Left...

...he is one of the few Democrats to get an "A" rating from the NRA and he seems to feel that there are enough unenforced gun laws out there and new ones are not necessary...

I dunno about Kerry but Dean seems to have figured out that gun control is political cyanide.

[EmperorSolo51]

Bear in mind I have only skimmed this topic, but as for Dean being too far to the Left...

...he is one of the few Democrats to get an "A" rating from the NRA and he seems to feel that there are enough unenforced gun laws out there and new ones are not necessary...

I dunno about Kerry but Dean seems to have figured out that gun control is political cyanide.

I agree with Deans stance on Gun Control, but what I dislike are his stances on Israel, The War on Terror, Tax Cuts, and Public Medical care.

[Sriad]

Bush has already won by virtue of (A) his unquestioned incumbence, (B) the stereotypes of the Republican Party, and (C) the "Terror psyche" now ingrained in most Americans.

The bottom line? People like Dean don't make us feel safe. Period. Even at his worst - lampooned as a gun-toting, bible-thumping Texan cowboy -, Bush still walks away looking far more the "fighter" than any Democratic competitor. He's managed to revive the Reaganistic spirit: a Republican administration is a defense/security-savvy administration.

Or to re-write that post from a Democrat POV:
Bush has already lost by virtue of (A) the troubles the nation faced and has abjectly failed to resolve during his presidency, (B) the spend now, pay later philosophies that any child could see through, and know that they'll be taking it up the ass for him in 30 years, and (C) the erosion of fundamental liberties during the reimagining of The War on Drugs for the 00's.

The bottom line? People like Bush don't make us safe. Period. Even at his best - posing in air force gear to which he has no right for publicity shots, doggedly pursuing dictatorial regimes months or years after they've done their damage, or signing hundred billion dollar taxcuts with one hand while penning requests for a hundred billion dollar reconstruction effort with the other, Bush walks away looking as able to run a country as a dyslexic poodle. He's managed to reinstate Reaganistic irresponsibility without the refuge of senility: a Republican administration blind to world opinion, blind to responsible fiscal policy, and blind to the consiquences stupid actions will have a decade down the line.

Thus concludes this evening's parody.

[Gil Hamilton]

Not every $100 phone will last and not every $10 phone will die in a year.. and that is the problem.. Playing the ODDS>>> You roll the dice and take your chances with every product you buy

Refer to my response the last time you said I was playing the odds.

[Sriad]

Not every $100 phone will last and not every $10 phone will die in a year.. and that is the problem.. Playing the ODDS>>> You roll the dice and take your chances with every product you buy

Refer to my response the last time you said I was playing the odds.

With all the products out there the odds are shit.
But that's why some (smarter) people buy Consumer Reports or otherwise gather intelligence before they buy a phone/stereo/lawnmower/otherthing.

[theski]

Sriad wrote:

But that's why some (smarter) people buy Consumer Reports or otherwise gather intelligence before they buy a phone/stereo/lawnmower/otherthing

Consumer Reports is good for some items with a long model cycle.. but please don't use it for Electronics.. Trust me they are always a model year behind.

[Iceberg]

"Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean..." - heard by John Kerry, mumbling under his breath, interview at the 9/9 debate

That's gotta smart...

[Worlds Spanner]

Does anyone else think it's whacked that there's a Dem running on fiscal responsibility?

[Iceberg]

Does anyone else think it's whacked that there's a Dem running on fiscal responsibility?

I think it's whacked that a Repub who ran on fiscal responsibility failed on such a basic premise of fiscal responsibility as "tax cuts should not precede spending cuts."

[theski]

Iceberg wrote:

think it's whacked that a Repub who ran on fiscal responsibility failed on such a basic premise of fiscal responsibility as "tax cuts should not precede spending cuts

I watched the debate last night and not one Dem proposed any budget cuts, only larger Gov growth.. IE: Healthcare. So please tell me how they are planning to pay for this..

[Alyrium Denryle]

By repealing the Bush taxcuts.

And I fail to see the problem with Govt growth...

[theski]

Alyrium Denryle Wrote:

By repealing the Bush taxcuts.

And I fail to see the problem with Govt growth...

That doesn't "pay" for anything...

And with Growth of programs comes with the cost.. I am paying 42 cents of every dollar I earn to the GOv already.. If you get out of school and want to give them more of your money.. be my guest[/code]

[Iceberg]

Alyrium Denryle Wrote:

By repealing the Bush taxcuts.

And I fail to see the problem with Govt growth...

That doesn't "pay" for anything...

Repealing the Bush tax cuts = more revenue. We can then concentrate on cutting the bloated bureaucracy that Dubya's spent two years feeding at the highest speed he could.

Tax cuts must follow spending cuts, NOT the other way around.

Mr. Bush's War is going to cost $192 billion (50 billion (base) + 87 billion (additional request) + $55 billion (Congressional estimate)), at LEAST, for FY 2003-04. And probably even more in FY 2004-05. Mr. Bush's War is rapidly becoming a VERY expensive boondoggle.

[theski]

Iceberg.... I would gladly listen if you could tell me any Deans plans for cutting Gov spending. Other than the tax cut...

[Joe]

By repealing the Bush taxcuts.

And I fail to see the problem with Govt growth...

Actually, repeal the Bush tax cuts and you only get around 165 billion dollars a year back, by the most liberal estimates. National healthcare would be the single biggest government program in the history of the country, and 165 billion dollars a year wouldn't be enough to fund it. If you want national healthcare, repealing Evil Corporate Monster Bush's tax cuts aren't gonna be enough, you're going to have to raise them to. I guess they don't teach you economics at that shitty American public school of yours, maybe you should go to Germany like you've been threatening to.

And I fail to see the problem with Govt growth...

As long as it's sanctioned by the Democratic party, you mean.

Iceberg.... I would gladly listen if you could tell me any Deans plans for cutting Gov spending. Other than the tax cut...

Tax cuts are not government spending. Just a nitpick.

[Joe]

Does anyone else think it's whacked that there's a Dem running on fiscal responsibility?

I think it's whacked that a Repub who ran on fiscal responsibility failed on such a basic premise of fiscal responsibility as "tax cuts should not precede spending cuts."

Bush did not run as a fiscal conservative, he was quite willing to embrace large spending projects during his campaign. And he's even more willing now.

[Stormbringer]

By repealing the Bush taxcuts.

If Dean adds to the tax burden like he did in Vermont we'll have be wishing for the Bush economy. The fact is that money taken as taxes does very, very little for the economy. Taking money from people's pockets will kill the economy especially with the absolutely staggering programs Dean wants to add.

And I fail to see the problem with Govt growth...

I do. Dean wants to add massive nation welfare programs to a federal budget that can't support it. With in our lifetimes Social Security is likely to bankrupt the US. And you want to add to that burden? The government is the worst possible provider of health and welfare services. The sheer bureacratic bloat won't allow it.

If you don't see the problem take off your Liberal Brand Blindfold. We can't afford the extravagent programs Dean wants. There just isn't the money with taxing ourselves into poverty.

[theski]

Storm wrote:

If you don't see the problem take off your Liberal Brand Blindfold. We can't afford the extravagent programs Dean wants. There just isn't the money with taxing ourselves into poverty.

For some that are still in school, they don't see how much the Gov takes from them and their paychecks.. They will learn..