Prayer in schools? Aww, crap...

[XPViking]

That's a great idea, with just one problem. They're not trying to convert anyone. By passing out leaflets, you are. Besides, who the fuck does it hurt? If they're that worried about their test scores, they won't be in school with the rest of you pathetic savages long anyway. Quit your moaning. - Raoul Duke, Jr

To stave off an impending Imperial Smackdown TM, you may want to read beyond the first couple posts of page one. Judging by your comments, it appears that you haven't done that.

XPViking

[Utsanomiko]

If only my highschool had had people like Mike Wong, that Atheist Coalition I started Freshman year would've gone somewhere, not to mention the Cult of The Cricket...

At least a freind of my brother got permission to lug a wooden cross around on his shoulders all day long on Good Friday. Man, were some people Royally Pissed. They act all happy-go-lucky-love thy-neighbor most of the time, but Jesus Q. Christ, can they vicious.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Don't forget he also had a crown of thorns, too.

[Setesh]

Something's started at my school recently, where a bunch of students gather in a circle out front and pray to God, before class starts.

I found it quite amusing because the news reporters covering it were blathering about how they were "making a difference." Yeah, I know! Let's not go to the trouble of volunteering at a homeless shelter, or donating to United Way, or something like that! We can pray to God, and say that we're helping the less-fortunate!

Here's my question, though: do you guys think it would be worth it to set up a table there and start distributing some of the flyers from Positive Atheism?

Find a channel that hasn't done a story on them, call them up and tell them about the prayer circles and then point out the 'favorable spin' the others put on it. Offer yourself as a target for 'dissenting opinion' interview.

Either that or Ridicule them into stopping, oh and everytime someone says they're making a differance point out the only differance they're making are:

A)Annoying me during tests
B)Consumption of oxygen
C)moquito meals
D)The bell curve of the average I.Q.

suggest to those who think mere prayer makes a differance that donating time to charity would make a much larger differance.

Carry the pamphlets with you anyway when people ask you whats wrong with them praying hand one over.

[ArmorPierce]

I heard on the news today that some schools somewhere (don't remember where) has okayed teaching "creationism theory" along with evolution. Actually they might not have said that, I wasn't really listening. Has anybody else heard about that or did I hear wrong and they actually said that they won't do that?

[White Cat]

Darth Wong:
Why should the lack of religion be a factor? Are you saying that a religion should have special privileges that a political group does not? That is establishment of religion, is it not? Are you saying that a religious group should be able to do things that an atheist group (for example) could not, since atheism is not a religion? That is also establishment of religion, is it not?

Actually, in my last post I said that "all religious groups (and atheist groups)" should be allowed to gather. (I should mention deists too, since I don't think that's technically a religion either. Oh, and agnostics.) In my first post, I used the rather vague term "religious-concerned groups" to mean "all religions, plus athiesm" so perhaps that's where the confusion came from.

Does anyone know of a better term that means "all the religions, plus atheism/agnosticism/deism"?

I kinda see your point about not dividing groups that deal with religion from those that deal with politics. I still don't think that allowing all religious/atheist groups to gather, but banning the the neo-Nazis (and other political groups) would be "establishment of religion", but it would probably be unfair for the reason that all of the above are "belief systems" of a sort.

T-shirts with swearing on them are definitely unequivalent, for two reaons: it doesn't have anything to do with religion (so banning them can't be establishment of religion) and it's not a "gathering" of any sort (so it doesn't give preferential treatment to one type of group meetings).

neoolong:
<snip contrasting of school flagpoles to public parks/streets>

I understand what you mean, but I still think that as long as all religions (and atheists) are given the equal right to gather (and they don't disrupt school activities), everything is still fair.

Trust me the noise was loud enough considering my class was the closest to the flagpole.

Then they should have been made to either quiet down or disperse.

My example is not a red herring. I said what I have encountered in my experience. I can't speak for anybody else's so I did not and I did not generalize. However, other groups have gotten in trouble for doing the same things that the Christian group did. Yet, the Christian group did not get in trouble. This did occur with more than one other group. My point wasn't that religious groups are more noisy or more distracting, just that even though it was more noisy the Christian group did not get punished for it.

Okay, that is unfair, and the principal shouldn't have given the Christian group special privileges. However, this does not mean that a system where all religions (and atheists) are given equal treatment is wrong.

Also, your previous post said (paraphrased) "The reason I believe that religious groups are noisier is because my former principal was a Christian and gave preferential treatment to a noisy Christian group," which is definitely a red herring.

Darth Wong:
Or the fact that the chess club is not an exclusionary activity.

I don't see how it's less exclusionary that the other clubs I mentioned:

Christian clubs are exclusive to Christians.
Atheist clubs are exclusive to atheists.
Republican/Democratic clubs are exclusive to Republicans/Democrats.
Chess clubs are exclusive to people who play chess.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I think people should be allowed to do what ever they want, now as long as the school does not tell you that you HAVE to do this I have no problem with this.

Also, no one should be allowed to harrass people who want to pray in a non Jewish/Christian manner. If you want a Shinto shrine in your locker, NO PROBLEM!

[neoolong]

White Cat - I get your point about equal treatment. However, I don't think that would work if Atheists find it unfair that religious groups are allowed to gather and if religious groups find it unfair that Atheists are allowed to gather. This is especially troublesome if they both are vying for the same space and time. About the red herring, you're right actually. I was writing it fast and meant to say that the religious groups at my school were probably noisier because he was also Christian. Sorry for the confusion. Also, that was just some background information on an example when prayer in schools encroages on the rights of others.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

My first post in this thread was perhaps too cryptically worded, so let me re-state it with an emphasis on clarity:

If the sad little wretches, on their own, come to a desicion to pray, and exercise that decision on their own, involving no one who does not join in on their own, then it is none of the school's business. Nor is it any of yours. Prayer may be a conversation with a nonexistent being, but it is a conversation which does not involve you.

[Darth Wong]

My first post in this thread was perhaps too cryptically worded, so let me re-state it with an emphasis on clarity:

If the sad little wretches, on their own, come to a desicion to pray, and exercise that decision on their own, involving no one who does not join in on their own, then it is none of the school's business. Nor is it any of yours. Prayer may be a conversation with a nonexistent being, but it is a conversation which does not involve you.

A group of Neo-Nazis standing on the front lawn praising Hitler or a group of satanists praising the devil are also conversations which do not involve you, yet I doubt the aforementioned school would allow either. We are seeing a double standard, which in turn means an exception is being made, which in turn means that we are seeing a deliberate attempt to favour one religion over others. How many times do I have to point this out before Christian apologists figure it out?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

My first post in this thread was perhaps too cryptically worded, so let me re-state it with an emphasis on clarity:

If the sad little wretches, on their own, come to a desicion to pray, and exercise that decision on their own, involving no one who does not join in on their own, then it is none of the school's business. Nor is it any of yours. Prayer may be a conversation with a nonexistent being, but it is a conversation which does not involve you.

A group of Neo-Nazis standing on the front lawn praising Hitler or a group of satanists praising the devil are also conversations which do not involve you, yet I doubt the aforementioned school would allow either. We are seeing a double standard, which in turn means an exception is being made, which in turn means that we are seeing a deliberate attempt to favour one religion over others. How many times do I have to point this out before Christian apologists figure it out?

And you see no difference in content or context? Sure, it's an exception, but is that the only basis of your objection? One is (supposedly) good, the other (admittedly) evil, and we either allow the evil or ban the good?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Second, let me ask this: were the students in question praying loudly in a central, highly visible area? Or were they doing it quietly and privately among themselves?

In other words, was it sincere or was it just for show? There's a hell of a difference there, and I think it's worth finding out one way or the other.

[Darth Wong]

A group of Neo-Nazis standing on the front lawn praising Hitler or a group of satanists praising the devil are also conversations which do not involve you, yet I doubt the aforementioned school would allow either. We are seeing a double standard, which in turn means an exception is being made, which in turn means that we are seeing a deliberate attempt to favour one religion over others. How many times do I have to point this out before Christian apologists figure it out?

And you see no difference in content or context?

No. The Biblical God is more evil than any Nazi who ever lived, and Satan is arguably the hero of the Bible.

Sure, it's an exception, but is that the only basis of your objection? One is (supposedly) good, the other (admittedly) evil, and we either allow the evil or ban the good?

More of that narrow-minded dogmatic mentality I mentioned earlier. You assume that the majority religion is "good" because you were raised to think of it that way, even though Christianity is synonymous with cruelty, evil, and ruthless massacres in many parts of the world, and its so-called "Holy Book" contains some of the most horrifying cruelty (committed by its "god", no less!) in all of literature.

[Wicked Pilot]

And you see no difference in content or context? Sure, it's an exception, but is that the only basis of your objection? One is (supposedly) good, the other (admittedly) evil, and we either allow the evil or ban the good?

Nazism is a form of Christianity and Satanist don't go around killing those who disagree with them like Christians and Nazis do.

[Colonel Olrik]

And you see no difference in content or context? Sure, it's an exception, but is that the only basis of your objection? One is (supposedly) good, the other (admittedly) evil, and we either allow the evil or ban the good?

But you're failing to see that many people do regard religious indoctrination as evil. And, being in a public school, it's only reasonable to expect that the kids are not subjected to the pressure of not belonging to groups sponsored or begniningly allowed by the school.
School yards can be real hard to some. It's not possible to stand aside from others. And then you'll have people mocking your kids because they are not part of the group [similar to what happens regarding sports at schools] which you strongly regard as wrong.

Schools are not a local of prayer. Churches are. Schools are places where kids learn and hopefully start thinking for themselves, deciding, between other things, their own belief system, not being entirelly subjected to eventual bad ideas from the parents. That's one of the reasons I regard home teaching wrong. It doesn't give the child the possibility of separating themselves from their parents.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

A group of Neo-Nazis standing on the front lawn praising Hitler or a group of satanists praising the devil are also conversations which do not involve you, yet I doubt the aforementioned school would allow either. We are seeing a double standard, which in turn means an exception is being made, which in turn means that we are seeing a deliberate attempt to favour one religion over others. How many times do I have to point this out before Christian apologists figure it out?

And you see no difference in content or context?

No. The Biblical God is more evil than any Nazi who ever lived, and Satan is arguably the hero of the Bible.

Sure, it's an exception, but is that the only basis of your objection? One is (supposedly) good, the other (admittedly) evil, and we either allow the evil or ban the good?

More of that narrow-minded dogmatic mentality I mentioned earlier. You assume that the majority religion is "good" because you were raised to think of it that way, even though Christianity is synonymous with cruelty, evil, and ruthless massacres in many parts of the world, and its so-called "Holy Book" contains some of the most horrifying cruelty (committed by its "god", no less!) in all of literature.

Actually, Darth Wong, I'm not even Christian. I just don't like to see assertions like these go unchallenged. Yes, Christianity, like its sister religion Islam, has been twisted by fundamentalists throughout the centuries into a truly vile, destructive plague. But we're not talking about students crucifying anyone, or burning anyone at the stake, or goose-stepping through the quad reciting Mein Kampf. We're talking, presumably, about students praying, exercising a personal choice. And so the question "Were they doing it for show or for themselves?" does have validity. Was it an exercise of personal faith, not intended to be seen by anyone? Or was it a "Hey! Look at us, we're being Christians!" type display?

[Darth Wong]

More of that narrow-minded dogmatic mentality I mentioned earlier. You assume that the majority religion is "good" because you were raised to think of it that way, even though Christianity is synonymous with cruelty, evil, and ruthless massacres in many parts of the world, and its so-called "Holy Book" contains some of the most horrifying cruelty (committed by its "god", no less!) in all of literature.

Actually, Darth Wong, I'm not even Christian.

Actually, Mr. Smart-ass, I didn't say you were. I said you were raised to think of Christianity as good. That association is drilled into the mind of every person living in this continent, regardless of whether they actually subscribe to the belief system.

I just don't like to see assertions like these go unchallenged. Yes, Christianity, like its sister religion Islam, has been twisted by fundamentalists throughout the centuries into a truly vile, destructive plague.

No, fundamentalists are accurate to the source material, ie- their respective "holy scriptures". They're not "twisting" anything; that is precisely their problem.

But we're not talking about students crucifying anyone, or burning anyone at the stake, or goose-stepping through the quad reciting Mein Kampf. We're talking, presumably, about students praying, exercising a personal choice.

Worshipping and praising a known fascist, torturer, and mass-murderer (the Biblical God; read your Bible). How is this different from a bunch of students gathering on the school lawn to worship Adolf Hitler?

And so the question "Were they doing it for show or for themselves?" does have validity. Was it an exercise of personal faith, not intended to be seen by anyone? Or was it a "Hey! Look at us, we're being Christians!" type display?

Then why the hell are you objecting to our criticism? If it was not intended to be seen by anyone, they wouldn't be doing it on the fucking front lawn of the school while all the other kids are entering the building, with full local TV news coverage!

[Colonel Olrik]

Was it an exercise of personal faith, not intended to be seen by anyone? Or was it a "Hey! Look at us, we're being Christians!" type display?

How old are you? Being at highschool is basically about show off. You'll never get a group of teenagers praying and meditating without most of them thinking they're the smart ones and without looking others from above. And then mocking them.

If they want to do something without connection with school, then do it in the appropriated places.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

More of that narrow-minded dogmatic mentality I mentioned earlier. You assume that the majority religion is "good" because you were raised to think of it that way, even though Christianity is synonymous with cruelty, evil, and ruthless massacres in many parts of the world, and its so-called "Holy Book" contains some of the most horrifying cruelty (committed by its "god", no less!) in all of literature.

Actually, Darth Wong, I'm not even Christian.

Actually, Mr. Smart-ass, I didn't say you were. I said you were raised to think of Christianity as good. That association is drilled into the mind of every person living in this continent, regardless of whether they actually subscribe to the belief system.

I just don't like to see assertions like these go unchallenged. Yes, Christianity, like its sister religion Islam, has been twisted by fundamentalists throughout the centuries into a truly vile, destructive plague.

No, fundamentalists are accurate to the source material, ie- their respective "holy scriptures". They're not "twisting" anything; that is precisely their problem.

But we're not talking about students crucifying anyone, or burning anyone at the stake, or goose-stepping through the quad reciting Mein Kampf. We're talking, presumably, about students praying, exercising a personal choice.

Worshipping and praising a known fascist, torturer, and mass-murderer (the Biblical God; read your Bible). How is this different from a bunch of students gathering on the school lawn to worship Adolf Hitler?

And so the question "Were they doing it for show or for themselves?" does have validity. Was it an exercise of personal faith, not intended to be seen by anyone? Or was it a "Hey! Look at us, we're being Christians!" type display?

Then why the hell are you objecting to our criticism? If it was not intended to be seen by anyone, they wouldn't be doing it on the fucking front lawn of the school while all the other kids are entering the building, with full local TV news coverage!

Maybe I was laboring under a misconception here. My impression was that they were doing it for their own benefit, and subsequently someone else brought the media into it. Their reasoning for doing it on the front lawn, I was thinking, was that they were refraining from engaging in such an ignorant display within the school walls. To answer the question of whether or not I've been "indoctrinated" into believing that Christianity is good; quite the contrary. My parents taught me from a young age that 1) Christianity, as a religion, is right up there with the other Middle Eastern religions on the bloodshed charts, and 2) because it usurped, distorted, lied and massacred its way to prominence in Europe (by way of the Roman Empire) it should be driven back whence it came. That last tenet has always struck me as being ignorant in its own right, but it also seems poetically just.

[Ryoga]

Okay, nevermind. They appear to have stopped quite spontaneously (maybe people lost interest...?)

I'll have to check and make sure it wasn't just a fluke, though.

[Durandal]

Maybe I was laboring under a misconception here. My impression was that they were doing it for their own benefit, and subsequently someone else brought the media into it.

Irrelevant. Christians have this undying need to shove their religion into everyone else's face; they call it evangelism. That's what leads them to whine and complain whenever they're not allowed to procure whatever facilities they wish to evangelize.

Their reasoning for doing it on the front lawn, I was thinking, was that they were refraining from engaging in such an ignorant display within the school walls.

It's on school property. If kids can be busted for smoking outside school walls, restrictions on religious demonstrations should damn well apply outside schools walls, as well.

To answer the question of whether or not I've been "indoctrinated" into believing that Christianity is good; quite the contrary. My parents taught me from a young age that 1) Christianity, as a religion, is right up there with the other Middle Eastern religions on the bloodshed charts, and 2) because it usurped, distorted, lied and massacred its way to prominence in Europe (by way of the Roman Empire) it should be driven back whence it came. That last tenet has always struck me as being ignorant in its own right, but it also seems poetically just.

Then you should see no problem with restricting Christian practices, just like every other religious practice, on school grounds.

[White Cat]

At the risk of sounding like a broken rccord, I'd like to reiterate that every religion (and atheism) must be given the same right to meet on school grounds.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

At the risk of sounding like a broken rccord, I'd like to reiterate that every religion (and atheism) must be given the same right to meet on school grounds.

That's crap. If your religion teaches hate and intolerance that it shouldn't be allowed on school grounds.

[Antediluvian]

Off-Topic: White Cat: Deism is a religion. They worship God (but not the god of the bible) and pray.

Some of America's Founding Fathers were deist.

On-Topic: I also think such public displays of religion should be kept off school grounds, having religious clubs is fine, but such public displays are annoying and intrusive.

If any school allows such displays, then they must allow it for all religions, and also those of a secular bent.

[White Cat]

Strowbridge, does that mean that if a religion doesn't teach hate and intolerance, it should be allowed on school grounds?

If so, please make a list of which religions would and wouldn't be allowed on school grounds under the above criteria.

Off-Topic: White Cat: Deism is a religion. They worship God (but not the god of the bible) and pray.

As I understand it, deists believe that there is a God, but He doesn't care what happens to humans, so why would they worship or pray to Him?