Two years since 9/11....

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-11 07:57am

Your thoughts?

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2003-09-11 08:20am

Osama is still far to healthy, but the US will fix that sooner or later.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-11 08:24am

CJvR wrote:Osama is still far to healthy, but the US will fix that sooner or later.

Actually, we did. We haven't had any real up to date tapes of that SOB for
a year or so now.

I was thinking one of those fuel-air bombs sucked his ailing kidneys out through his nostrils and then his eyes popped out like Ahnuld's in
Total Recall and so on.

I cherish this image.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-09-11 08:28am

The world took a decided turn for the worse back then. It was a shock, I remember being at school, browsing the Heavengames forums and just about to leave, and see this topic titled "A plane just crashed to the WTC" and I figured it was just some asshole who fucked up with a small plane, no big deal. Then my girlfriend called me, she'd already gotten home, and said it was a huge passenger jet and there had been another hit too, at which point I knew that shit had really hit the fan. Next thing, fifteen minutes later she calls me and says the first tower falls, another twenty and and both are down.

We sat watching the TV the whole day, and I was pretty numb, thinking about all the people who died and knowing that in the next weeks and months there was going to be a total shakeup of the world.

Fast forward two years, and look at things today, that horror is a more distant thing because I was pretty removed from it in the first place, but everything else is different. Back then the US had everyone in the world on their side, now the word America is almost a curse word in many places and most of that goodwill of two years ago is but a memory. I know that there will be words of condolence from practically every head of state in the world, but I'm going to have to wonder how much of those speeches is going to be genuine. The ones from here and our neighbors will be, at any rate, but the fact that I'll be wondering at that at all should speak volumes.

The most incredible aspect of all this is that things have come to this pass to begin with. I still have a hard time believing it, but it's difficult to argue with facts.

When I replay the events of 11/9/2001 in my head, I still feel that sorrow for lives lost, still remember wondering if my New Yorker friends were alive or dead, but those feelings are more sharply focused on the victims and their families and friends, and far less encompassing than they were on that day. For the American government in the face of this, there is little but contempt for the way it squandered the support it got. I've never felt more keenly that the kind of great people from the US we have here deserve a lot better than the leadership they got, but in this I have the luxury of hindsight.

As for the victims of that tragic day two years ago, and their families and friends, I have this to say: While they are no longer with us, they still live in memory, and as long as that memory is alive, so, in some sense, are they. We can't bring them back, but we can give them that ephemeral collective immortality by not forgetting.

You may now freely flame me to a cinder if what I said offended you, but this is what I feel, and I can't put it in any better words. I wasn't going to insult the memory of those events and their victims by saying something trite and dishonest.

Edi

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-09-11 08:35am

Edi wrote:The world took a decided turn for the worse back then. It was a shock, I remember being at school, browsing the Heavengames forums and just about to leave, and see this topic titled "A plane just crashed to the WTC" and I figured it was just some asshole who fucked up with a small plane, no big deal. Then my girlfriend called me, she'd already gotten home, and said it was a huge passenger jet and there had been another hit too, at which point I knew that shit had really hit the fan. Next thing, fifteen minutes later she calls me and says the first tower falls, another twenty and and both are down.

We sat watching the TV the whole day, and I was pretty numb, thinking about all the people who died and knowing that in the next weeks and months there was going to be a total shakeup of the world.

Fast forward two years, and look at things today, that horror is a more distant thing because I was pretty removed from it in the first place, but everything else is different. Back then the US had everyone in the world on their side, now the word America is almost a curse word in many places and most of that goodwill of two years ago is but a memory. I know that there will be words of condolence from practically every head of state in the world, but I'm going to have to wonder how much of those speeches is going to be genuine. The ones from here and our neighbors will be, at any rate, but the fact that I'll be wondering at that at all should speak volumes.

The most incredible aspect of all this is that things have come to this pass to begin with. I still have a hard time believing it, but it's difficult to argue with facts.

When I replay the events of 11/9/2001 in my head, I still feel that sorrow for lives lost, still remember wondering if my New Yorker friends were alive or dead, but those feelings are more sharply focused on the victims and their families and friends, and far less encompassing than they were on that day. For the American government in the face of this, there is little but contempt for the way it squandered the support it got. I've never felt more keenly that the kind of great people from the US we have here deserve a lot better than the leadership they got, but in this I have the luxury of hindsight.

As for the victims of that tragic day two years ago, and their families and friends, I have this to say: While they are no longer with us, they still live in memory, and as long as that memory is alive, so, in some sense, are they. We can't bring them back, but we can give them that ephemeral collective immortality by not forgetting.

You may now freely flame me to a cinder if what I said offended you, but this is what I feel, and I can't put it in any better words. I wasn't going to insult the memory of those events and their victims by saying something trite and dishonest.

Edi

You won't get any flames from me. Well said.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-09-11 04:51pm

Durran Korr wrote:Don't pull this shit in a remembrance thread.
I just hope Dalton doesn't find this.

This is NOT a remembrance thread.
In the memorial thread Shep did start in OT he said this one was for political commentary.
Wether you agree with Thrawn or not, this IS the place to post it.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-09-11 08:15pm

We should have gone after Saudi and Syria. Thiose are serious terrorist states. Iran is changing on its own; as for North Korea we should let our Asian allies set the pace and speak softly and we'd be the 800-lb. gorilla waiting in the wings with the big stick if things get ugly.

I still say we did the right thing in taking out Saddam and the war was a lomg overdue correction of the world's scorecard-- but the way it was handled was ham-handed and pissed away the goodwill we had.

Whiel I understand that some folks have traditionally been angry at us for some of our overseas antics in the past, I don't think that was the answer. Nothing justifies 9/11's brutality. At least the Japanese had the decency to attack a Navy base, where the victims had a chance to defend themselves. Those poor sots in the towers and elsewhere had nothing, and were not combat troops to begin with.

McNum · Post by **McNum** » 2003-09-11 09:48pm

I was actually surprised with the lack of attention it got this year. Sure, it was mentioned and some things were put in perspective, but there wasn't any over the top memorials or hour-long replays of the events since then on tv. I guess it's time to let the families recover without having to reopen the wounds every year.

As I see it it looks the healing and learning process finally has started. Not that it'll ever be as before, but it seems better this year. I have kind of thought that some of the memorials and events were a little too much at times. Especially the flag at the Olympics. I found that uncalled for.

About the War on Terror, I think it has been handled so-so. Osama has most likely been at least neutralised, but Al-Qaeda is still a little too active for my likings. The Iraq War was probably long overdue, but the handling of it was, well, poor. The US managed to kill a good part of the goodwill they had gained the last years due to bad diplomacy skills. But Saddam is dethroned and it's time to "win the peace" as they call it. Isreal/Palestine? I'm not going to touch that one with a ten foot pole. That's almost a lost cause. I don't see any improvements in the near future there. Both sides are too stubborn.

Bottom line:
It's good to see that people are recovering from the loss and it's also nice to see that the War on Terror hasn't backfired as much as I had feared.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-09-11 09:53pm

It should never have happened.

So much of the worst things of what's going on could've not existed if 9/11 hadn't happened.

Like PATRIOT, the lives lost, etc.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-09-11 09:53pm

Shinova wrote:It should never have happened.

So much of the worst things of what's going on could've not existed if 9/11 hadn't happened.

Like PATRIOT, the lives lost, etc.

Oh, and not to mention the falling economy and the now-tense political climate.

Companion Cube · Post by **Companion Cube** » 2003-09-12 02:44am

One possible upside, of course, is the fact that 9/11 led to the liberation of the Afghan people from an oppressive regime, and quite possibly, gave the Iraqis a similiar freedom.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-09-12 08:19am

You mean freedom from regiemes the US aided into power and didnt give a shit about till 9/11 happened?

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-09-12 08:24am

Keevan_Colton wrote:You mean freedom from regiemes the US aided into power and didnt give a shit about till 9/11 happened?

Hey kids! look at the blatant oversimplification! oooohhh, ahhhhhh!

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-09-12 08:30am

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:You mean freedom from regiemes the US aided into power and didnt give a shit about till 9/11 happened?

Hey kids! look at the blatant oversimplification! oooohhh, ahhhhhh!

No more so than the bullshit that led to Iraq being pegged as part of the "War on Terror" if you really want to go after nations that have supported and aided terrorists then start at home...or do the Contra and the Mujahdeen not count as terrorists?

I'd say they most certainly fucking do, and the Taliban were an offshoot of one particular bunch of Mujahadeen....doesnt seem to much of a simplification to say they were aided into power by the US does it?
What about the Ba'ath party coup that the CIA was greatly complicit in?

And apart from the Contra, that's just places where you are messing about right now....if we go to latin america and look for countries the US has fucked over royaly I need to only utter two words, "General Pinochet" despotic evil dictator should really have a picture of him next to it? Would you not count that as the spreading of terror?

Or does this shit not count because it was done to prevent the big bad communist threat and the will of the people in given regions be damned?

Democracy it often seems when you look over this shit is something only people the US approve are entitled to.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-09-12 03:36pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:No more so than the bullshit that led to Iraq being pegged as part of the "War on Terror" if you really want to go after nations that have supported and aided terrorists then start at home...or do the Contra and the Mujahdeen not count as terrorists?

Whether you agree that Iraq was supporting Al Quaeda, et. al or not, the invasion of Iraq was very much part of the Bush Administration's "War on Terror" plan.

Democracy it often seems when you look over this shit is something only people the US approve are entitled to.

Hardly.

Bug-Eyed Earl · Post by **Bug-Eyed Earl** » 2003-09-13 01:33am

I watched TV for over an hour before going to school. I was taking a class about the history of theatre, and the teacher was teaching the theatrical definition of tragedy and saying that what had just happened wasn't a tragedy in the sense they were talking about (he was talking about how Shakespearean tragedy has to happen to nobility to meet that definition), and he chastised me for being late after class was over.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-09-13 01:47am

Well one thing is certainly obvious at this point......... it certainly provided the perfect pretext for Bush and his Neo-Con buddies to launch the Oil-Seizure wars they were p lanning from the moment he was sworn in.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-09-13 11:47pm

It makes me think more...and for whatever reason, every time I hear the TTFD start rolling, I think something really, really bad has happened. So I'm still a bit jumpy, though not looking up in the sky every time I hear a low-flying plane...at least not in a hijacker sense (I love planes in general so I look anyway).

It also puts a lot of things into persepective for me...my choice to go in the military, for one. But I don't think I have to go into much detail on that score, now am I eager to right now.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-09-14 01:10am

It's a fact of gepolitics. Countries become involved only where they have strategic interests to fulfill. That meant Iraq was going to come up on our list long before Nicaragua.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-09-14 01:33am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Well one thing is certainly obvious at this point......... it certainly provided the perfect pretext for Bush and his Neo-Con buddies to launch the Oil-Seizure wars they were p lanning from the moment he was sworn in.

Before. They were planning from the time he thought about running.

And now Bush is trying to shift power from the courts to the Department of Justice, ignoring the checks of power written into the law, and Halliburton (Dick Cheney's old company) is spending more than anticipated on rebuilding Iraq, to the tune of over two billion taxpayer dollars. People wonder why I'm cynical about the government...

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-09-14 04:33am

Before. They were planning from the time he thought about running.

And you have proof of this? Bush ran on a platform of virtual isolationism compared to his precedecessor. That is acknowledged fact. What you've given us is nother more than biased opinion.

And now Bush is trying to shift power from the courts to the Department of Justice, ignoring the checks of power written into the law, and Halliburton (Dick Cheney's old company) is spending more than anticipated on rebuilding Iraq, to the tune of over two billion taxpayer dollars. People wonder why I'm cynical about the government...

The judicial "power shift" is related primarily to foreign nations tried under U.S. jurisdiction. Even assuming you personally were to go to court, it's extremely unlikely the legal results of September 11th would ever become an issue.

Halliburton was chosen by the Army Corps of Engineers. It fought oil fires immediately after the war. It can competantly rebuild into the foreseeable future. Just because Dick Cheney was once involved doesn't mean it's the wrong choice.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-09-14 05:11am

Bush is the neocon's useful idiot- they're the ones who have been calling for war in Iraq for the better part of a decade to make the Middle East safe for Israel er Democracy.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-09-14 01:13pm

Bush is the neocon's useful idiot- they're the ones who have been calling for war in Iraq for the better part of a decade to make the Middle East safe for Israel er Democracy.

But it all falls under the umbrella of responses to September 11th. Nobody can show any legitimate proof that we were going to invade Iraq prior to the terrorist attacks by Osama Bin Laden.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-09-14 01:44pm

Except for The Onion!

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-09-14 03:12pm

Apparently there was serious planning for the invasion of Iraq before 9/11, but it moved from the "should do" to "must do" list after said events. Axis, check Stuart's WOT board for the relevant details, you're on that board.