New Addition to the Canon: The DK Library

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Lord Poe
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 6988
Joined: 2002-07-14 03:15am
Location: Callyfornia
Contact:

New Addition to the Canon: The DK Library

Post by Lord Poe »

The infamous Star Wars Insider #68 has been a watershed of information for those that are interested in the proper canon policy of Lucasfilm, and its also been an effective weapon against those that would willfully misinterpret the canon and EU statements for their own deluded parody of these guidelines.

For quite a few years now, the canon stood as:

1) Movies

2)Scripts

3)Novelizations

4) Radio Dramas

- in that order. Now we have a fifth category of canon: the DK Star Wars library, which includes the "Incredible Cross Sections, the Visual Dictionaries, and the "Inside The Worlds Of" books.

This is confirmed by Star Wars Insider #68, in the preface of David West Reynold's article VISION QUEST The origins of the Star Wars Incredible Cross-Sections on the Star Wars ICS, on page 36:
The first two Incredible Cross Sections books were conceived to explore bold new territory in the Star Wars Universe, taking a rare look inside more vehicles and vessels than we have ever seen before, and doing it in unprecidented detail. These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licencees as reference guides and would even become useful manuals at Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II
This is added to by the sidebar "THE DK STAR WARS LIBRARY" to the article, on page 43:
Long after the original Incedible Cross-Sections book revolutionized Star Wars "nonfiction", Dorling Kindersley continues to publish amazing resources revealing the secrets of vehicles, equipment, and locations. The latest offering is Inside The Worlds of Star Wars Attack Of The Clones: The Complete Guide to the Incredible Locations from Episode II. Illustrated by the veteran team of Richard Chasemore and Hans Jenssen, this was written by series editor Simon Beecroft, in consultation with Dr. Curtis Saxton. While this book deals with locations rather than vehicles, the challenge remains the same, in Beecroft's words: "to accurately rationalize what's seen in the film and then extend the universe that little further."

Many locations in the Star Wars galaxy are nothing if not big. Fortunately, the artists were prepared for the challenge. "One thing they've learned: never to underestimate the scale of the task," says Beecroft. "Richard and Hans put in hundreds and hundreds of hours doing a vehicles book. For a locations book, they must double that, at least. Some of these artworks are just enormous: look at the Geonosian Droid Factory or the Outlander Club." Beecroft is emphatic about the crucial role of Dr. Saxton's participation. "He worked with me all the way, holding down a day job and then exchanging e-mails with me all night. His academic background, general breadth of knowledge, and understanding of Star Wars lore underpins everything in the book. His work in rationalizing the Geonosis battle map, in particular, must be mentioned.

With Dr. Saxton working with us, we can be sure that there is a real scientific basis to all our explanations." Curtis Saxton, who wrote the Attack of ther Clones Incredible Cross-Sections book, has a PhD. in theoretical astrophysics along with a deep knowledge of, and a love for, the Star Wars saga.


Note that the DK library is referred to as Star Wars "non fiction". The article is supported by comments made on starwars.com:
Q: Do you use any of the Star Wars books and guides when working on your designs? Do you look at the "Expanded Universe" at all?

A: As designers we look at all kinds of stuff for inspiration and we have a crack research staff to help us with that. The Star Wars books serve as a starting point and guide for certain types of questions that arise in respect to certain cultures or technologies that have already been established in the movies. The Star Wars Chronicles book is our bible, the Incredible Cross-Section books provide a great starting point when we're adding to existing locations. We usually don't refer to the Expanded Universe materials specifically unless our research team finds something that directly corresponds to our assignment.
And again, a shot from the webcam on the set of Episode 3 offers even more confirmation.

Of course, those that have a vested interest in desperately trying to re-interpret said quotes to fit their own ends will do such things as writing 100,000 word webpages attempting to debunk this and the EU's stance in relation to canon. I've recently destroyed RSA's attempts at dismissing all the above, with the fact that Steve Sansweet is on staff at the Star Wars Insider, and his title on the magazine is "Lucasfilm Editor". His official title on starwars.com is Lucasfilm Liason

RSA's mantra is that the SWI can't dictate canon policy, there's no proof that Sansweet is there to ensure policy, and Sansweet is nothing more than a "collector Guru" (ignoring the evidence on sw.com) But even if the weight of the above evidence isn't enough for the Black Knight, here is, yet again, another nail in the coffin from the SWI contents page::
--Material published within here does not necessarily reflect the opinions of Paizo Publishing LLC, it's employees, or its editorial staff who are not responsible for the opinions expressed herein
Comments?
Image

"Brian, if I parked a supertanker in Central Park, painted it neon orange, and set it on fire, it would be less obvious than your stupidity." --RedImperator
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

You rule, Wayne :D
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Lord Poe
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 6988
Joined: 2002-07-14 03:15am
Location: Callyfornia
Contact:

Post by Lord Poe »

Darth Wong wrote:You rule, Wayne :D
Now all I need is my Durasteel Sceptre to bash over Scooter's head!
Image

"Brian, if I parked a supertanker in Central Park, painted it neon orange, and set it on fire, it would be less obvious than your stupidity." --RedImperator
User avatar
Publius
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1912
Joined: 2002-07-03 08:22pm
Location: Novus Ordo Sæculorum
Contact:

Post by Publius »

Lord Poe wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You rule, Wayne :D
Now all I need is my Durasteel Sceptre to bash over Scooter's head!
Let us not forget that durasteel rods can be bent on mere tables, which are generally not all that hard.

Publius
God's in His Heaven, all's right with the world
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Publius wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You rule, Wayne :D
Now all I need is my Durasteel Sceptre to bash over Scooter's head!
Let us not forget that durasteel rods can be bent on mere tables, which are generally not all that hard.

Publius
Not nearly as hard as Scooter's skull, anyway :D
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Phil Skayhan
Jedi Knight
Posts: 941
Joined: 2002-07-08 10:31pm
Contact:

Post by Phil Skayhan »

Lord Poe wrote:Now all I need is my Durasteel Sceptre to bash over Scooter's head!
Didn't I already drop my broken monitor on his head back in November?
Maybe we should sell tickets so everyone gets a whack at him and make a small return on some of what we've dealt with.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but while we're on the subject of the ICSs, do they say anything about TIEs or Droid Fighters and shields?
Happily married gay couples with closets full of assault weapons. That's my vision for America
Image
User avatar
Mad
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:32am
Location: North Carolina, USA
Contact:

Post by Mad »

Some additional information on SWI:

The title "Lucasfilm editor" has changed over the years. In SWI54, the title was "Editor for Lucasfilm," and in SWI39, it was "Consulting Editor for Lucasfilm."

Steve Sansweet's position in SWI68 is most assuredly one that involves actually editing articles. In SWI54, Steve Sansweet was listed under "Contributors." And in SWI39, he was a "Senior Writer." This means his position at SWI has changed several times, and that he was an editor as of issue 68. This completely smashes any claims that he is only some kind of "collector guru" for issue 68, as one of his previous non-editorial titles would easily qualify that position. His title changes mean his responsibilities have changed throughout the issues, and that his title of "Lucasfilm editor" in SWI68 means he does actual editing.
Later...
User avatar
Lord Poe
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 6988
Joined: 2002-07-14 03:15am
Location: Callyfornia
Contact:

Post by Lord Poe »

Thanks, Mad!
Image

"Brian, if I parked a supertanker in Central Park, painted it neon orange, and set it on fire, it would be less obvious than your stupidity." --RedImperator
User avatar
Marc Xavier
Padawan Learner
Posts: 399
Joined: 2003-04-02 05:11pm
Location: Second star to the right...
Contact:

This may be of use

Post by Marc Xavier »

This post may be of significance. "Tasty Taste" is Leland Chee, Database Content Administrator, Lucas Licensing (click on "Member Profile" if you wish to see for yourself).
Leland Chee wrote:The preface to David West Reynolds's article says that Lucasfilm gave its "formal imprimatur" of canon to the ICS books he wrote, and did so for at least one of them back in '99.... It seems to go against everything Sansweet and Cerasi said in 2001, and the official site's placement of the books in the EU section.

Perhaps your confusion is with the meaning of Lucasfilm. "Lucasfilm canon" refers to anything produced by any of the Lucas companies, whether it be movies, books, games, or internet. "Movie canon" is only that which you see and hear in the Star Wars films.
TrekWars: The Furry Conflict. A unique and inventive mix of "Trek" and "Wars"--with some fur to add color.
"Most Awesome Guy in the Universe" "proof that folks can become much better..."
"wait people being polite... am I sure I am logged into SDN?" ~Sometimes truth defies reason.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

How does that change anything? The movie novelizations are considered canon, yet they fall under the category of "books".
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Lord Poe
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 6988
Joined: 2002-07-14 03:15am
Location: Callyfornia
Contact:

Re: This may be of use

Post by Lord Poe »

Marc, this idiocy changes NOTHING. I see a ICS crybaby, most likely Darkstar, framed the question to attempt to generate the answer he wanted. Note the circular logic: "It seems to go against everything Sansweet and Cerasi said in 2001," Yes, it "changes" everything if you believe Robbie's bullshit interpretations of these quotes.

As I've shown in this thread, The DK library is canon, is considered seperate from the EU, and is considered Star Wars "non fiction". Sansweet, as "Lucasfilm Editor" approved the article.
Image

"Brian, if I parked a supertanker in Central Park, painted it neon orange, and set it on fire, it would be less obvious than your stupidity." --RedImperator
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Re: This may be of use

Post by Master of Ossus »

Marc Xavier wrote:This post may be of significance. "Tasty Taste" is Leland Chee, Database Content Administrator, Lucas Licensing (click on "Member Profile" if you wish to see for yourself).
Leland Chee wrote:The preface to David West Reynolds's article says that Lucasfilm gave its "formal imprimatur" of canon to the ICS books he wrote, and did so for at least one of them back in '99.... It seems to go against everything Sansweet and Cerasi said in 2001, and the official site's placement of the books in the EU section.

Perhaps your confusion is with the meaning of Lucasfilm. "Lucasfilm canon" refers to anything produced by any of the Lucas companies, whether it be movies, books, games, or internet. "Movie canon" is only that which you see and hear in the Star Wars films.
What are you intending to show? Since almost everyone serious accepts that the scripts, radio-plays, and novelizations are canon, doesn't this simply indicate that the ICS is also a form of canon?

Granted, there are some people who ONLY accept the films themselves. That's what the statement is made to protect. However, since the novelizations, scripts, and radio-plays all fall outside that very strict definition of the term, it does not affect the debates that are going on right now. "Movie canon" is only applicable to a tiny fraction of the debating community.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Marc Xavier
Padawan Learner
Posts: 399
Joined: 2003-04-02 05:11pm
Location: Second star to the right...
Contact:

Post by Marc Xavier »

Ease up, all I did was report a piece of information.
TrekWars: The Furry Conflict. A unique and inventive mix of "Trek" and "Wars"--with some fur to add color.
"Most Awesome Guy in the Universe" "proof that folks can become much better..."
"wait people being polite... am I sure I am logged into SDN?" ~Sometimes truth defies reason.
User avatar
Dalton
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
Posts: 22637
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: New York, the Fuck You State
Contact:

Post by Dalton »

Every time I see Curtis's name up there my heart does a little jump for joy.

You know what I think? I think Robbie is really afraid that the Star Wars Technical Commentaries website is going to become classified as canon if things continue like this ;)
Image
Image
To Absent Friends
Dalton | Admin Smash | Knight of the Order of SDN

"y = mx + bro" - Surlethe
"You try THAT shit again, kid, and I will mod you. I will
mod you so hard, you'll wish I were Dalton." - Lagmonster

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce.
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

I'm betting he tries to spin it by focusing on the "not necessarily" part. that or not even reading it and restating his position, like he did when I first showed him I68. That was funny, he ended up stating that Lucasfilm cannot dictate Lucasfilm policey.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Ender wrote:I'm betting he tries to spin it by focusing on the "not necessarily" part. that or not even reading it and restating his position, like he did when I first showed him I68. That was funny, he ended up stating that Lucasfilm cannot dictate Lucasfilm policey.
I think he'll just ignore all of it and claim his interpretation of the one Lucas "parrallel universe" quote actually applies to the ICS books.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Post by Master of Ossus »

Ender wrote:I'm betting he tries to spin it by focusing on the "not necessarily" part. that or not even reading it and restating his position, like he did when I first showed him I68. That was funny, he ended up stating that Lucasfilm cannot dictate Lucasfilm policey.
That was hilarious, incidentally. BTW, Marc didn't really say anything, Wayne. He just showed us a quote that actually helps your case. I don't know what's been going on between the two of you in the past, but honestly I'm not sure he deserved that in this particular thread.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Mad
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:32am
Location: North Carolina, USA
Contact:

Post by Mad »

Sue Rostoni (Sremmuy) posted this later on the page Marc linked to, in response to the same question (which was from Ackbar's Trap, on the previous page in the thread):
Can you elaborate a bit more? The ICS books are cannon. They don't carry the "Infinities" icon, so are considered part of cannon. Chris ranked canon, i.e., the films and novelizations come first... meaning that if something in an EU novel or comic book or whatever contradicts something in the film, the film is more "true." Books in the EU are considered part of the canon of the universe. I think I'm missing what you're asking.
Emphasis mine, of course.

Edit: Ackbar's Trap elaborated on page 193. I looked a few pages later, but haven't found an official reply yet. There was a reply by James T. Skywalker, but he stated that "it's not official on my end," since he's not a VIP.
Later...
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

Interestingly, he totally ignored my posting that statement in that thread, just like how he ignored the fact that turning off gravity means no acceleration compensators meaning pilots just became goo in the hyperspace speed thread.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
Lord Poe
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 6988
Joined: 2002-07-14 03:15am
Location: Callyfornia
Contact:

Post by Lord Poe »

Master of Ossus wrote:That was hilarious, incidentally. BTW, Marc didn't really say anything, Wayne. He just showed us a quote that actually helps your case. I don't know what's been going on between the two of you in the past, but honestly I'm not sure he deserved that in this particular thread.
I'm simply wary. Marc hassn't exactly been clear on his position, and seems to lean a bit too much toward the "the EU doesn't matter" crowd for my taste.
Image

"Brian, if I parked a supertanker in Central Park, painted it neon orange, and set it on fire, it would be less obvious than your stupidity." --RedImperator
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Darth Wong wrote: Not nearly as hard as Scooter's skull, anyway :D
His skull is very dense; if it were simply very hard the tungsten logic sabots would have shattered it by now, spewing fragments through his brain, though given its tiny size it might get lucky and escape damage.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Marc Xavier
Padawan Learner
Posts: 399
Joined: 2003-04-02 05:11pm
Location: Second star to the right...
Contact:

Post by Marc Xavier »

Lord Poe wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:That was hilarious, incidentally. BTW, Marc didn't really say anything, Wayne. He just showed us a quote that actually helps your case. I don't know what's been going on between the two of you in the past, but honestly I'm not sure he deserved that in this particular thread.
I'm simply wary. Marc hassn't exactly been clear on his position, and seems to lean a bit too much toward the "the EU doesn't matter" crowd for my taste.
I don't fault you for your weariness, however I am not part of the "EU doesn't matter" crowd. I have no interest in further polarizing this discussion or the DarkStar thread on SB. If my meticulousness (and even apparent redundantness) in analyzing your stance has put you to caution, understand that my queries or commentary are not met to forward a “Movie Purist” agenda.
TrekWars: The Furry Conflict. A unique and inventive mix of "Trek" and "Wars"--with some fur to add color.
"Most Awesome Guy in the Universe" "proof that folks can become much better..."
"wait people being polite... am I sure I am logged into SDN?" ~Sometimes truth defies reason.
User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14065
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Lord Poe wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:That was hilarious, incidentally. BTW, Marc didn't really say anything, Wayne. He just showed us a quote that actually helps your case. I don't know what's been going on between the two of you in the past, but honestly I'm not sure he deserved that in this particular thread.
I'm simply wary. Marc hassn't exactly been clear on his position, and seems to lean a bit too much toward the "the EU doesn't matter" crowd for my taste.
Actually he's quite open to using the EU - he just seems to put his particular "spin" on the issue. (Witness the debate over TLs for an example.)
User avatar
Marc Xavier
Padawan Learner
Posts: 399
Joined: 2003-04-02 05:11pm
Location: Second star to the right...
Contact:

Post by Marc Xavier »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:That was hilarious, incidentally. BTW, Marc didn't really say anything, Wayne. He just showed us a quote that actually helps your case. I don't know what's been going on between the two of you in the past, but honestly I'm not sure he deserved that in this particular thread.
I'm simply wary. Marc hassn't exactly been clear on his position, and seems to lean a bit too much toward the "the EU doesn't matter" crowd for my taste.
Actually he's quite open to using the EU - he just seems to put his particular "spin" on the issue. (Witness the debate over TLs for an example.)
Back to that again. This is the second unrelated thread in which I've had someone jab at me because of the Turbolaser Operational Theory. Let's stay on topic, shall we?
TrekWars: The Furry Conflict. A unique and inventive mix of "Trek" and "Wars"--with some fur to add color.
"Most Awesome Guy in the Universe" "proof that folks can become much better..."
"wait people being polite... am I sure I am logged into SDN?" ~Sometimes truth defies reason.
User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14065
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Marc Xavier wrote:
Back to that again. This is the second unrelated thread in which I've had someone jab at me because of the Turbolaser Operational Theory. Let's stay on topic, shall we?
Obviously you skipped the part where I was mentioning to Wayne that you are quite open to using the EU. The fact that you like to "interpret" things (to put it politely) in a particular way does not invalidate this, no matter how wrong you were proven to be.

Remember that context matters, boyo.
Post Reply