President Bush's Speech

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Post by Darth Wong »

Strate_Egg wrote:Hmmm i dont really have a problem with any of you people. So far the "majority" of you have been nice, as long as everyone holds the same opinion.
Don't do this passive/aggressive bullshit; now you're starting to piss me off.

You said "So...this all devolves on how good someone is at speaking? OH ok. SO i guess all of those individuals with speech problems are stupid? All of those people have have lisps are stupid?", which is a blatant strawman distortion. A strawman distortion is extremely rude, not to mention a case of fraudulent misrepresentation. But you figure it's A-OK, as long as you don't do something obvious, like using the word "dumb-ass".

Play your fucking bullshit rhetorical games if you want, but don't expect people to pat you on the back for it. When you put words in someone else's mouth, you give up your right to whine about manners.
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Post by Strate_Egg »

Actually, Mr. Wong, I was being serious. Calling someone stupid for how they speek is JUST like calling an individual stupid that has a lisp, or is shy, or has other speech problems.

I am not being passive aggressive, its not my problem you have to get angry with obviously respectful and nice people. I never disrespected either of your opinions, yet you did mine.

I would not want to make you angry, i like watching yall's conversations. After a day of Neolithic examination, this is fun. But hey, if you dont like me liking bush, thats ok, ill just like whomever you want me to like. Deal?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Strate_Egg wrote:Actually, Mr. Wong, I was being serious. Calling someone stupid for how they speek is JUST like calling an individual stupid that has a lisp, or is shy, or has other speech problems.
Wrong. One's choice of words and vocabulary (or lack thereof) speaks directly to his level of education. A lisp does not. Your analogy is false, and your argument is a strawman.
I am not being passive aggressive, its not my problem you have to get angry with obviously respectful and nice people. I never disrespected either of your opinions, yet you did mine.
You don't think it's disrespectful to misrepresent someone? Puh-lease.
I would not want to make you angry, i like watching yall's conversations. After a day of Neolithic examination, this is fun. But hey, if you dont like me liking bush, thats ok, ill just like whomever you want me to like. Deal?
I reiterate: stop this passive/aggressive bullshit. Your cute little falsie olive branches always include a little insult, and you seem to think we're too fucking stupid to notice. First you say that we're only nice to people who agree with us (fucking stupid claim since we don't agree amongst ourselves), then you say that we're only nice to people who don't like Bush, all the while whistling innocently and trying to pretend you're Mr. Nice Guy. Blow me, asshole.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by Strate_Egg »

Seriously, maybe i am misunderstanding you. I am not trying to be sly, or slick, or whatever it is you insist im doing. This is just the way i am. I mean, YOU have a degree in engineering, i don't. I cannot call you stupid or anything. I'm not trying to be disrepectful.

Secondly, you DO have a point. VOcabulary CAN make the man. HOwever, utilizing methodological skepticism, one can also see a universal belief falseafirer. There are several instances in which vocabulary do NOT mean intelligence. FOr example


() Use of A dictonary consistanty, even though you do not memorize the meaning and the use of the word in context.

() Use of a thesaurus consitantly, not knowing the subtle linguistic usage.

() The idea of a writer: Reading from a scripted unit or a telepromt that has a bunch of big words, really doesn't convey that someone is smart.

Woodrow wilson wasn't the almighty public speaker, or even politican when it came to bipartisan politics. THat did NOT make him a bad president.


Again, if you can find something sinister in that post, i give up, for i am NOT trying to be cynical. I can understand people hating Bush for Enron, or so-called warmongering, but speech....thats absurd, especially due to the variety of falsifiers that can be used to counter that.
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Post by Strate_Egg »

I really cannot spell today, or ever for that matter, so excuse that.
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Post by Dahak »

Strate_Egg wrote:You are a smart man Mr. Wong, and i do respect your opinion. HOwever....i just dont believe that it is the fault of the actor for reading the lines given to him in a script. If the writer was stupid enough to write them.
I am quite certain that the script writers were not writing gems like "Weapons of mass production", "nukular" or any other Bushisms in the speeches and scripts.

It's Bush's fault for ruining them, and making an idiot of himself.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Strate_Egg wrote:snip


I do not understand why you guys are always so quick to insult someone that doesn't agree with you 100%. It is not as if i am talking about some massive and important concept.

Anyway, im sorry if i disturbed anyone of you, i didn't mean to cause you a problem and whatnot. I just see so many people that voice a negative opinion bout bush, that it gets old, especially when its about such trivial things. I mean, if you are gonna bang a politician, you might as well do them all, for they are all just as corrupt and bad

Hmmm i dont really have a problem with any of you people. So far the "majority" of you have been nice, as long as everyone holds the same opinion.
People here do not all hold the same opinion, therte are liberals, conservatives, Labour {for those out side the US, thats socialist+a capatalist+social liberalsim} we all differ and we all argue. We insult those who are stupid. As to Bush, he gets insulted for stupid choices and an inability to form sentances, this will never get old, for he is a political figure and the Head of Stae of the worlds most powerfull nation and his failings must be pointed out.
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Post by Strate_Egg »

I fully understand that, but i see quite a bit of public speakers, including those history professors with post doctorate degrees saying nukular. These are not stupid men and women. That is more of a colloquialism than stupid. It is more akin to a dialectal issue.

For example, i say "water" some people say wooder, or wadda. Depending on from where someone lived, he will naturally have a different dialect.


And yes, scrutiny of public officials is good, just not 24/7 over such stupid issues as that. Now if it was over a scandle or somesort like enron, oil, or whatnot, then it would at least be warrented.
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Post by Strate_Egg »

if it "were" not was, sorry.
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Post by Dahak »

Strate_Egg wrote:I fully understand that, but i see quite a bit of public speakers, including those history professors with post doctorate degrees saying nukular. These are not stupid men and women. That is more of a colloquialism than stupid. It is more akin to a dialectal issue.

For example, i say "water" some people say wooder, or wadda. Depending on from where someone lived, he will naturally have a different dialect.


And yes, scrutiny of public officials is good, just not 24/7 over such stupid issues as that. Now if it was over a scandle or somesort like enron, oil, or whatnot, then it would at least be warrented.
DIalects happen.
But totally fucking up normal words, is something entirely different.
He's the President, and he is in the public. In said position he better watch his mouth. He doesn't, so he's the laughing stock of the world...
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Strate_Egg wrote:I fully understand that, but i see quite a bit of public speakers, including those history professors with post doctorate degrees saying nukular. These are not stupid men and women. That is more of a colloquialism than stupid. It is more akin to a dialectal issue.

For example, i say "water" some people say wooder, or wadda. Depending on from where someone lived, he will naturally have a different dialect.


And yes, scrutiny of public officials is good, just not 24/7 over such stupid issues as that. Now if it was over a scandle or somesort like enron, oil, or whatnot, then it would at least be warrented.
Dilects and accents are one thing making up words and fucking up words, do not count.
What Bush says and does affects nations outside the US as well as the population of the US, as such there is some justifiable concern about a man in such a position who cannot string a sentance together, indeed, makes up his own words.
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Post by The Dark »

Strate_Egg wrote:Actually, Mr. Wong, I was being serious. Calling someone stupid for how they speek is JUST like calling an individual stupid that has a lisp, or is shy, or has other speech problems.
Not entirely true. I have a lisp due to a physical birth defect. My ex-girlfriend had "shyness" in that she had a case of depression and didn't like talking to people. I dislike phone conversations because they tend to amplify my speech problem. My roommate stutters on occasion. The three of us all have IQs at least one standard deviation above normal, and all three of us scored highly on the verbal portions of the SATs. However, all three of us can speak in public quite well. Admittedly, some of it is formal training; however, a politician should have such training, and to a greater extent than a religion major, an economics major, and a sociology major. If a person is either unwilling or unable to learn to speak in public, particularly when they hold a prominent place in the public eye, they show either disrespect for the people or stupidity, respectively.

Thus, G. W. Bush either does not respect the American public or is an idiot. Given that he scored fairly well on standardized tests and did moderately well in Ivy League colleges, I would have to credit him with at least an average intelligence. I am forced to conclude that DW is wrong in this instance, and rather than an idiot, Bush merely does not respect the people to whom he is speaking, and does not put in sufficient effort to ensure his speeches are comprehendable.
I would not want to make you angry, i like watching yall's conversations. After a day of Neolithic examination, this is fun. But hey, if you dont like me liking bush, thats ok, ill just like whomever you want me to like. Deal?
That's not the issue here, Strate. The issue is being able to logically and rationally defend your position. I personally don't care for Bush because I see his policies on religion as unConstitutional and bordering on heresy. Additionally, his economic policy is among the worst I've seen. His foreign policy cost us all the goodwill that had been caused by September 11, and has made us the "bad guy" of world politics. His domestic policy appears to be mostly nonexistent.

That said, I can see how people who hold different political views could see Bush as a strong leader. I agree that he is one; I merely feel he is leading us in the wrong direction. The issue is not holding different opinions (I'm a pre-ministerial candidate among a heavily anti-religious population), but rather being able to defend them logically if you choose to get involved in a discussion.
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Post by Strate_Egg »

AHh yes, and i do AGREE with YOUR possition because that makes sense asn is not trivial, unlike someone's speech patterns. I am not saying bush does some bad things politically, im saying that that is not related to speech.


Providing concrete reasons why you hate someone is fine, not "OH MY GOD BOB "did ya see that?"

"what jethrow"

"Jee, he ended his sentence in a prep' o ' sition.

There is a difference.
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Post by Dahak »

Strate_Egg wrote:AHh yes, and i do AGREE with YOUR possition because that makes sense asn is not trivial, unlike someone's speech patterns. I am not saying bush does some bad things politically, im saying that that is not related to speech.


Providing concrete reasons why you hate someone is fine, not "OH MY GOD BOB "did ya see that?"

"what jethrow"

"Jee, he ended his sentence in a prep' o ' sition.

There is a difference.
That doesn't change that he is an offense to the English language and an embarassment to a whole people.
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Post by Strate_Egg »

Hmmmmm some things you just cannot take personally. THere are many people that butcher German, French, as well as other languages. Hell, my engliish professor doesnt even speak the language well, and he is english. IT is a colloquialism Nothing more.

You would think that the american people would be more interested in real issues, more so than superficial ones. As long as you get the point across, thats all that matters. Unless you all claim to be superhumans that are infallible, it does not make sense to call someone on such an issue. That is more of an embarassment.
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Post by Dahak »

Strate_Egg wrote:Hmmmmm some things you just cannot take personally. THere are many people that butcher German, French, as well as other languages. Hell, my engliish professor doesnt even speak the language well, and he is english. IT is a colloquialism Nothing more.

You would think that the american people would be more interested in real issues, more so than superficial ones. As long as you get the point across, thats all that matters. Unless you all claim to be superhumans that are infallible, it does not make sense to call someone on such an issue. That is more of an embarassment.
Well, English *is* Bush's first language. It would be forgiveable if he did it to another language.
*shudders at the thought of Bush speaking German*
Anyway, a politician is a public speaker. So he better be good in it, or he will look stupid, even if he said the smartest things on earth.

That he also is the leading man of a whole country, and still can't grasp the language is embarassing.
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Post by Strate_Egg »

Public speaking is more than grammar, it is more of knowning how to manipulate the audience and instill patriotism and order. I cannot accept the issue as embarassing because he either mispronounces a few words, or makes some up. That in and of itself is part of politcs...to use any method possible to gain the attention of the audence.
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Post by Strate_Egg »

If grammer "were" the case, then we would have to scrutinize EVERY member of EVERY political office on the face of the planet to make sure they are 100% perfect in vocabulary and sentence structure. That is abusrd when half the populations of a country or countries ( including myself) cannot prevent errors.

To err is to be only human. Maybe those that see these mistakes should correct them instead of hiding away mocking someone that has OBVIOUSLY no benefit whatsover to any situation.
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Post by Dahak »

It's not about grammar and vocabulary. Every one can and does make mistakes in those.
But it's about BLOODY MISTAKES he makes.
Things like "weapons of mass production" and his other pearls. Those are more than just grammar errors...
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Post by Stormbringer »

Dahak wrote:It's not about grammar and vocabulary. Every one can and does make mistakes in those.
But it's about BLOODY MISTAKES he makes.
Things like "weapons of mass production" and his other pearls. Those are more than just grammar errors...
Yup. They're just plain errors and make him look like an idiot. There's no question about that.

But those that assume he's moronic bumpkin because of it aren't really looking at it all that deeply. He's a shitty public speaker but that doesn't make him a moron.
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Post by Dahak »

Stormbringer wrote:
Dahak wrote:It's not about grammar and vocabulary. Every one can and does make mistakes in those.
But it's about BLOODY MISTAKES he makes.
Things like "weapons of mass production" and his other pearls. Those are more than just grammar errors...
Yup. They're just plain errors and make him look like an idiot. There's no question about that.

But those that assume he's moronic bumpkin because of it aren't really looking at it all that deeply. He's a shitty public speaker but that doesn't make him a moron.
I yet have to be convinced otherwise...
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Post by Stormbringer »

Dahak wrote:I yet have to be convinced otherwise...
Meh. I know you made up your mind a long time ago. I didn't expect to change it.

I'm just pointing out that public speeking is not the best nor only way of measuring a person's intelligence. I'd bet half the people on this board would stammer like idiots if forced to give speeches to audiences a fraction of the size of Bush's.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Stormbringer wrote:
Dahak wrote:It's not about grammar and vocabulary. Every one can and does make mistakes in those.
But it's about BLOODY MISTAKES he makes.
Things like "weapons of mass production" and his other pearls. Those are more than just grammar errors...
Yup. They're just plain errors and make him look like an idiot. There's no question about that.

But those that assume he's moronic bumpkin because of it aren't really looking at it all that deeply. He's a shitty public speaker but that doesn't make him a moron.
Its his choices as President that concern me.
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Post by Darth Wong »

'tis a sad day when the President of the world's most powerful nation need only demonstrate average abilities, or average test scores in order to be worthy of the office. And people actually defend him on this basis! "Well, he had average test scores, so he's not a moron ..." Is that really all you ask of a fucking leader? That he scores around the middle of the class, thus qualifying him to be a future bus driver?

The average person is a moron!

George Bush's popularity is a symptom of populism run amok. Rather than elect our best and brightest, we prefer people who seem "ordinary". Egads, I'd hate to be led by someone who seems smarter than the average bus driver! :roll:
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Post by Edi »

Stormbringer wrote:I'm just pointing out that public speeking is not the best nor only way of measuring a person's intelligence. I'd bet half the people on this board would stammer like idiots if forced to give speeches to audiences a fraction of the size of Bush's.
No, it isn't, but out of the hundreds of public appearances Bush has made, you'd expect him to not fuck up every single one the second he goes off-script. All the ones I've seen on TV (BBC World, when they show live or recorded ones, the Finnish TV thankfully just summarises him unless it's something very important) have had me gaping in absolute bewilderment at how the fuck he can expect to be taken even remotely seriously when the speech content has been what it has been.

The Dark's point about him being disrespectful of his audience is completely on target. The bullshit, especially whenever he mentions the the War on Terror, WMD or Iraq (though lately less than before in this last case), is so thick you could literally cut chunks out of it with a machete, and it'd take some serious hacking and hewing to get it done, too. If anybody spoke to me like that, like you'd speak to a five-year-old, on matters of national security and going to war, I'd tell them to fuck off and not bother coming back. It doesn't much help that when he is making his speeches, Bush generally looks like he's astonished at how nobody seems to figure out he's peddling bullshit but instead cheers him on. This is not an observation I've made just by myself, I've had others independently and spontaneously observe the exact same thing to me.

Even when Bush is scripted and not making mistakes, his way of public speech is insulting in the extreme because it assumes the audience is stupid. Anybody trying to use the same style when making a public speech here would be booed off the podium and become a laughingstock. We've got one member of parliament here who is an ex pro-wrestler (Tony "The Viking" Halme) and generally nowhere near the brightest bulb in the box, prone to making rash statements and embarrassing himself in public, and he is still lightyears ahead of Bush in public speaking skills. From my point of view (admittedly limited as it is) it seems most of the time, based on the available evidence, that Bush is either stupid, inept, disrespectful, habitually dishonest or a combination of these qualities, and none of that is very flattering.

This is not to say that Bush can't make decent public speeches, I remember portions of his speeches that I've heard that have been pretty good, but whenever one of the magic subjects come up, it's time to disengage the critical thinking processes in order to avoid permanent brain damage from contagious stupidity. I wish it was John McCain or Colin Powell or RedImperator or somebody who generally knows what the fuck they're doing in the office of POTUS.

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