Photorps are only 10MT

[Alyeska]

No, they wanted to destroy "God".

And if it was a lower-yield torpedo than normal, then a) Kirk would have actually ordered them to fire a lower-yield torpedo (which he doesn't), and b) Spock and company wouldn't have been worried about firing one so close to Kirk's position (it's like firing/throwing a grenade near a friendly position: you only worry about warning them if they're going to be in danger from the grenade).

Don't be a complete dumbass. This has got to be the dumbest line of reasoning I have ever seen.

This was not your standard torpedo (as mentioned by color) and anyone with half a brain would realize that Kirk would want to live.

FYI, rewatch the movie. Here is Kirk's exact words in regards to the torpedo.

"Kirk to Enterprise..."

I want your proof he ordered down a full powered torpedo right on top of himself.

Color has nothing to do with power. Or are you implying that the torpedoes the E-nil fired in ST:TMP were purposefully underpowered? Nowhere else do we see a color change denoting a reduction in photon torpedo power. In fact, the only difference seems to be the number fired, not the charge on the torpedo. Heck, if we go by color, then Quantum torpedoes must be less powerful, because they're blue as well.

As for Kirk's order... again, where did he tell them to fire an underpowered torpedo? Did he explicitly say not to fire a full-powered torpedo? Or did he just tell them to fire a torpedo at the being's location? Again, if there was no danger from his proximity to the torpedo, they wouldn't have been reluctant to carry it out.

Don't cloud the topic with Quantum Torpedoes. Those are stated to be vastly different weapons. I said this was the only example of blue PHOTON TORPEDOES. We have 3 seperate examples that the torpedoe fired in FF were not standard.

It was Blue
It impacted much slower then it should have
It caused very little damage

So, either you can assume that "God" absorbed the energy, or that they are not standard torpedoes. Assuming them to be standard is the highest level of idiocy because you complete ignore any other firepower example and choose the rock bottom figures.

[TheDarkling]

The torp is green, not that it really matters but I just thought I would throw that out there.

It seems to me that kirk ordered a low power torp and that God contained the explosion - since Kirk was hardly going to order his death but the torp should still have more power than was shown.

[greenmm]

The torp is green, not that it really matters but I just thought I would throw that out there.

It seems to me that kirk ordered a low power torp and that God contained the explosion - since Kirk was hardly going to order his death but the torp should still have more power than was shown.

If he didn't explicitly order a low-powered torpedo, then it doesn't matter what you think, because you need evidence to support it.

[TheDarkling]

I do have evidence - the huge low yield compared with every other incident.

Also the fact that the torp looks unusual and is fired upon a powerfull being with SF crew at ground zero.

We dont hear Kirk instructions to the Sulu he simply says listen carefully, basically only an idiot thinks this torp shows the full power of starfleet.

[Alyeska]

The torp is green, not that it really matters but I just thought I would throw that out there.

It seems to me that kirk ordered a low power torp and that God contained the explosion - since Kirk was hardly going to order his death but the torp should still have more power than was shown.

If he didn't explicitly order a low-powered torpedo, then it doesn't matter what you think, because you need evidence to support it.

What a good approach. So where is your evidence that is a full powered torp when the logical conclussion when firing near your CO is to minimize the power as much as possible?

[greenmm]

Don't be a complete dumbass. This has got to be the dumbest line of reasoning I have ever seen.

This was not your standard torpedo (as mentioned by color) and anyone with half a brain would realize that Kirk would want to live.

FYI, rewatch the movie. Here is Kirk's exact words in regards to the torpedo.

"Kirk to Enterprise..."

I want your proof he ordered down a full powered torpedo right on top of himself.

Color has nothing to do with power. Or are you implying that the torpedoes the E-nil fired in ST:TMP were purposefully underpowered? Nowhere else do we see a color change denoting a reduction in photon torpedo power. In fact, the only difference seems to be the number fired, not the charge on the torpedo. Heck, if we go by color, then Quantum torpedoes must be less powerful, because they're blue as well.

As for Kirk's order... again, where did he tell them to fire an underpowered torpedo? Did he explicitly say not to fire a full-powered torpedo? Or did he just tell them to fire a torpedo at the being's location? Again, if there was no danger from his proximity to the torpedo, they wouldn't have been reluctant to carry it out.

Don't cloud the topic with Quantum Torpedoes. Those are stated to be vastly different weapons. I said this was the only example of blue PHOTON TORPEDOES. We have 3 seperate examples that the torpedoe fired in FF were not standard.

It was Blue
It impacted much slower then it should have
It caused very little damage

So, either you can assume that "God" absorbed the energy, or that they are not standard torpedoes. Assuming them to be standard is the highest level of idiocy because you complete ignore any other firepower example and choose the rock bottom figures.

Actually, you already clouded the issue by saying that the blue color indicated it was a lower-powered torpedo. But unless you can show concrete evidence that a torpedo's color explicitly denotes what its damage rating is, then color doesn't matter.

As for impact speed... that has no bearing. Torpedo ratings aren't based off of how fast they're traveling, but how much antimatter they carry. Otherwise, why fire a torpedo at impulse speed when you can just have it shoot over at Warp 9, and get a heck of a lot more kinetic energy out of the deal? If anything, the slower speed is probably to prevent the torpedo from burning up in the atmosphere since torpedoes don't seem to have shields in them. And yes, they can, because they expected Spock's coffin/torpedo to burn up in the Genesis Planet's atmosphere at the end of TWoK.

And who says Kirk wouldn't fire a torpedo down on his position rated at 65 MT (which is the max yield of 1.5 kg of AM combined with 1.5 kg of matter)? We just saw him rock-climbing without ropes at the beginning of ST5, and he claimed that he felt safe in taking dangerous risks because, as long as Spock and Bones were with him, he wouldn't die. And we have plenty of canon instances from the series and films where he risked his own life and his ship to protect the Federation. He's known as a cowboy and a risk-taker. Calling down a full-strength torpedo near his location to take out "God" is completely within character for him.

Finally... yes, it's obvious that "God" absorbed nearly all of the damage. Even if this torpedo had been downrated to a 1 kT yield (about 1/65,000th as powerful as max yield), they were still too close to survive that kind of explosion. And had it been downrated enough that they could survive that proximity to the explosion, who's to say that "God" would have been injured enough by it?

[greenmm]

The torp is green, not that it really matters but I just thought I would throw that out there.

It seems to me that kirk ordered a low power torp and that God contained the explosion - since Kirk was hardly going to order his death but the torp should still have more power than was shown.

If he didn't explicitly order a low-powered torpedo, then it doesn't matter what you think, because you need evidence to support it.

What a good approach. So where is your evidence that is a full powered torp when the logical conclussion when firing near your CO is to minimize the power as much as possible?

The logical conclusion is that, when facing an enemy as powerful as "God", that you follow your CO's orders to the letter. Starfleet, remember is very military-based before TNG... and you don't interpret your CO's orders, you follow your CO's orders to the letter (as long as they don't violate SOP or regulations... and I'm pretty sure that, given a threat to the Federation, the life of a ship's captain is considered a small price to pay). Had they fired a lower-yield torpedo without being directed to by Kirk, they would have risked not having enough damage to hurt/kill "God", which was the whole point of firing the torpedo.

[TheDarkling]

We dont know what Kirk said therefore you cant say they werent obeying orders.

[Alyeska]

Actually, you already clouded the issue by saying that the blue color indicated it was a lower-powered torpedo. But unless you can show concrete evidence that a torpedo's color explicitly denotes what its damage rating is, then color doesn't matter.

Yes, it does. It indicates this is not a standard torpedo when all other examples show differently.

As for impact speed... that has no bearing. Torpedo ratings aren't based off of how fast they're traveling, but how much antimatter they carry. Otherwise, why fire a torpedo at impulse speed when you can just have it shoot over at Warp 9, and get a heck of a lot more kinetic energy out of the deal? If anything, the slower speed is probably to prevent the torpedo from burning up in the atmosphere since torpedoes don't seem to have shields in them. And yes, they can, because they expected Spock's coffin/torpedo to burn up in the Genesis Planet's atmosphere at the end of TWoK.

The impact speed does have bearing because some people noted that the torpedo had less power then a rock falling from orbit. We already have proof that torpedoes can enter the core of a star and burrow through the crust of a planet. Slowing down for the atmosphere to remain capable is illogical.

And who says Kirk wouldn't fire a torpedo down on his position rated at 65 MT (which is the max yield of 1.5 kg of AM combined with 1.5 kg of matter)? We just saw him rock-climbing without ropes at the beginning of ST5, and he claimed that he felt safe in taking dangerous risks because, as long as Spock and Bones were with him, he wouldn't die. And we have plenty of canon instances from the series and films where he risked his own life and his ship to protect the Federation. He's known as a cowboy and a risk-taker. Calling down a full-strength torpedo near his location to take out "God" is completely within character for him.

Illogical conclussion, and false at that. In a particular TOS episode Kirk had the choice of bombarding the planet he was on, but decided not to because the bombardment would kill him.

Finally... yes, it's obvious that "God" absorbed nearly all of the damage. Even if this torpedo had been downrated to a 1 kT yield (about 1/65,000th as powerful as max yield), they were still too close to survive that kind of explosion. And had it been downrated enough that they could survive that proximity to the explosion, who's to say that "God" would have been injured enough by it?

Illogical conclussion. You are operating under the premise that Kirk was willing to openly risk his life in such a situation when that is out of character (as mentioned earlier).

[Alyeska]

The logical conclusion is that, when facing an enemy as powerful as "God", that you follow your CO's orders to the letter. Starfleet, remember is very military-based before TNG... and you don't interpret your CO's orders, you follow your CO's orders to the letter (as long as they don't violate SOP or regulations... and I'm pretty sure that, given a threat to the Federation, the life of a ship's captain is considered a small price to pay). Had they fired a lower-yield torpedo without being directed to by Kirk, they would have risked not having enough damage to hurt/kill "God", which was the whole point of firing the torpedo.

Provide the quote proving that Kirk ordered a full powered torpedo.

[greenmm]

The logical conclusion is that, when facing an enemy as powerful as "God", that you follow your CO's orders to the letter. Starfleet, remember is very military-based before TNG... and you don't interpret your CO's orders, you follow your CO's orders to the letter (as long as they don't violate SOP or regulations... and I'm pretty sure that, given a threat to the Federation, the life of a ship's captain is considered a small price to pay). Had they fired a lower-yield torpedo without being directed to by Kirk, they would have risked not having enough damage to hurt/kill "God", which was the whole point of firing the torpedo.

Provide the quote proving that Kirk ordered a full powered torpedo.

Prove the quote that he ordered a low-powered torpedo.

If he didn't explicitly say "fire a low-powered torpedo", then you can't use dialogue to prove your point.

[greenmm]

We dont know what Kirk said therefore you cant say they werent obeying orders.

If we don't know what Kirk said, then how do you know that he ordered a lower-yield torpedo?

[greenmm]

Actually, you already clouded the issue by saying that the blue color indicated it was a lower-powered torpedo. But unless you can show concrete evidence that a torpedo's color explicitly denotes what its damage rating is, then color doesn't matter.

Yes, it does. It indicates this is not a standard torpedo when all other examples show differently.

So they fired a low-power torpedo in ST:TMP? That was a blue torpedo as well, right? So what reason did they have to fire a lower-yield torpedo... particularly since they would want to make sure the target was destroyed?

As for impact speed... that has no bearing. Torpedo ratings aren't based off of how fast they're traveling, but how much antimatter they carry. Otherwise, why fire a torpedo at impulse speed when you can just have it shoot over at Warp 9, and get a heck of a lot more kinetic energy out of the deal? If anything, the slower speed is probably to prevent the torpedo from burning up in the atmosphere since torpedoes don't seem to have shields in them. And yes, they can, because they expected Spock's coffin/torpedo to burn up in the Genesis Planet's atmosphere at the end of TWoK.

The impact speed does have bearing because some people noted that the torpedo had less power then a rock falling from orbit. We already have proof that torpedoes can enter the core of a star and burrow through the crust of a planet. Slowing down for the atmosphere to remain capable is illogical.

Actually, they were saying that if they'd dropped a rock from orbit, it would have caused a bigger explosion than the torpedo did. So what, did they actually slow down the torpedo so that it was travelling at less than terminal velocity? Why not use its drive system to accelerate into the target, rather than slow it down? And if the explosion was only due to kinetic energy, why waste a torpedo casing without loading any AM into it? They could have surely found some trash to drop down from orbit instead of wasting an empty torpedo, or even better fired phasers at it if the yield was that low.

As for the other instances... are they from ST6 and before, or are they TNG? They've had 75 years, after all, to improve torpedo design. Otherwise, that would be the equivelent of the US Armed Forces still using the old Springfield WWI rifles and other WWI equipment for their front-line forces.

And who says Kirk wouldn't fire a torpedo down on his position rated at 65 MT (which is the max yield of 1.5 kg of AM combined with 1.5 kg of matter)? We just saw him rock-climbing without ropes at the beginning of ST5, and he claimed that he felt safe in taking dangerous risks because, as long as Spock and Bones were with him, he wouldn't die. And we have plenty of canon instances from the series and films where he risked his own life and his ship to protect the Federation. He's known as a cowboy and a risk-taker. Calling down a full-strength torpedo near his location to take out "God" is completely within character for him.

Illogical conclussion, and false at that. In a particular TOS episode Kirk had the choice of bombarding the planet he was on, but decided not to because the bombardment would kill him.

Not illogical. Was the situation identical? Was the entire Federation imperiled on this planet? He also used the risky time-jump maneuver in a Klingon ship that his crew barely understood -- a maneuver that had a high chance of destroying their ship as well. He also sacrificed his ship on the off-chance that he could take over the BoP in the first place.

He's shown an unwillingness to throw his life needlessly away, but he's also shown his willingness to risk his life if the need is great enough.

Finally... yes, it's obvious that "God" absorbed nearly all of the damage. Even if this torpedo had been downrated to a 1 kT yield (about 1/65,000th as powerful as max yield), they were still too close to survive that kind of explosion. And had it been downrated enough that they could survive that proximity to the explosion, who's to say that "God" would have been injured enough by it?

Illogical conclussion. You are operating under the premise that Kirk was willing to openly risk his life in such a situation when that is out of character (as mentioned earlier).

Out of character? Which TOS have you been watching? It would be out of character for anyone but Kirk.

[TheDarkling]

We dont know what Kirk said therefore you cant say they werent obeying orders.

If we don't know what Kirk said, then how do you know that he ordered a lower-yield torpedo?

Ah the pain, my brain is bleeding .... make it stop.

We see way more powerfull torps.
We have crew at ground zero.
We dont know what orders were given.
We have a yield less than the ke of a fallling rock of approx size.
We have a god like creature.

Do the math.

[TheDarkling]

Why was the Federation in danger? it was trapped and had no way to escape, the only people in danger were Kirk and Co, blowing up the godling to save them by killing them in the esplosion makes no sense

The torp was GREEN people or at least it is in my version.

[Vertigo1]

Oh for frells sake... :rolleyes:

1. The torp in ST5 was green, not blue.
2. Torpedo color doesn't indicate yield, but class.
3. We don't know what Kirk said so we don't know what exactly was done to the torpedo to make ANY logical analysis.

GET OVER IT!

[WhiteStarPrime]

I think the most interesting think about Photon torps is that they are very flexible weapons.

[greenmm]

Why was the Federation in danger? it was trapped and had no way to escape, the only people in danger were Kirk and Co, blowing up the godling to save them by killing them in the esplosion makes no sense

The torp was GREEN people or at least it is in my version.

Kirk wanted to make sure that no other starship would stumble upon it, thus freeing it from its prison. The risk was because apparantly most people were susceptible to its mind-control techniques, and that even someone with a strong will could be deceived by its rhetoric. Had the being made it back to the Federation, or even to the Klingon or Romulan Empires, the chaos and confusion it could cause by turning people against each other and against their governments would have been devastating.

[greenmm]

I think the most interesting think about Photon torps is that they are very flexible weapons.

That's true. Apparantly, they use a standard body that's also used on their probes, as well as having a guidance system that can easily be modified/reprogrammed.

[Guest]

finally, something trekkie that is intelligent

[seanrobertson]

That is in line with my low-end estimates, but I don't think the Trekkies would accept it.

Hence the use of the term Low-End

Precisely. My mid range is somewhere between 30 and 70 MT.

As always, you prove a very fair source, m'friend.

I think 3 megatons/photorp is actually pretty generous. I do think
photon torpedos (TNG era onward) should be megaton-class devices,
but only barely so. Many sci-fi fans have no idea how large a megaton-ranged explosion really is...and they want to make it more simply because
Star Wars deals with energies generally 10,000x greater.

Alas, it doesn't work that way I think the TNG-era torp was configurable from around 100 kilotons to 1 megaton. When the Type Six torpedos were
introduced (TNG's "Genesis,"), this increased the yield by "eleven percent."
VGR had a Type Ten yield torpedo, which is probably SI on most starships as a last-ditch/desperation weapon ("Scorpion pt. II").

Quantum torpedos would have to be markedly more powerful than
photorps; otherwise, even devious Quark wouldn't have been able
to try to sell them as "more expensive, but worth it!" in "Little Green
Men." If the TM's ratio holds, quantum torpedos are anywhere from
3-10 megatons in yield.

The latter seems extreme given what we see in action, but I can accept it.
Any society with thousands of worlds under its control should be able to
field weapons equivalent to small nukes or a bit better, after all.