Split from EVA question(Anime = Jingoism?)

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-15 03:46pm

More likely it's Japan's hard headed refusal to acknowledge that the US has a military. The usual fucked up cultural denial stemming from WW2. They hide any US military not being ripped apart by the Giant Japanese Phallic Symbol-bot behind the UN and all that even when it's clearly intended to be US.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-15 03:54pm

Stormbringer wrote:Snip Flamebait.

Would it be asking alot to ask you not to throw such obvious flamebait into threads? Seriously, Storm, if you hate the series, the genre, the entire medium, you still don't need to pollute threads like that.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-15 04:00pm

SirNitram wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Snip Flamebait.
Would it be asking alot to ask you not to throw such obvious flamebait into threads? Seriously, Storm, if you hate the series, the genre, the entire medium, you still don't need to pollute threads like that.

In Storm's defense, the question IS a valid one that I asked in an earlier Eva thread a few months ago when I watched the series for the first time why the Japanese in Anime seem to have an issue with portraying US power and dominance, if you watch Godzilla movies as well its always the UN and not the US that gets involved. Granted Storm could have couched it in more polite language but the gist of his question remains an interesting one. Is Japan unable or unwilling to deal with US dominance in the world when it comes to their anime?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-15 04:04pm

Stravo wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Snip Flamebait.
Would it be asking alot to ask you not to throw such obvious flamebait into threads? Seriously, Storm, if you hate the series, the genre, the entire medium, you still don't need to pollute threads like that.
In Storm's defense, the question IS a valid one that I asked in an earlier Eva thread a few months ago when I watched the series for the first time why the Japanese in Anime seem to have an issue with portraying US power and dominance, if you watch Godzilla movies as well its always the UN and not the US that gets involved. Granted Storm could have couched it in more polite language but the gist of his question remains an interesting one. Is Japan unable or unwilling to deal with US dominance in the world when it comes to their anime?

A valid question, but as Storm posted it, it's just another blatant invite for Yet Another EVA Flamewar(tm). I don't know, but it doesn't seem much different from other mediums. Think about recent American movies, and how they're even going to rip-off Dog Soldiers instead of release the original. This is jingoism, plain and simple, and it's not just Japanese.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-09-15 04:10pm

Stormbringer wrote: More likely it's Japan's hard headed refusal to acknowledge that the US has a military.

Sadly that have been the current trend through a handful of military animes refuse to go down that path.

The usual fucked up cultural denial stemming from WW2. They hide any US military not being ripped apart by the Giant Japanese Phallic Symbol-bot behind the UN and all that even when it's clearly intended to be US.

R.O.D. appears to be the execption as the director seems to take delight in wasting the U.S. Military and mocking the U.S. President.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-09-15 04:10pm

Double post? No doublepost here. Ignore the Mod behind the curtain. - SirNit

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-15 04:13pm

R.O.D. appears to be the execption as the director seems to take delight in wasting the U.S. Military and mocking the U.S. President.

Read or Die?

I've heard Gasaraki has some anti-American undertones in it as well...I've got coming in the mail, I'll have to see.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-15 04:21pm

SirNitram wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Snip Flamebait.
Would it be asking alot to ask you not to throw such obvious flamebait into threads? Seriously, Storm, if you hate the series, the genre, the entire medium, you still don't need to pollute threads like that.

I don't hate the series (haven't seen it but I want to) nor do I hate the genre. I didn't intend that to be flame bait or an insult to Evangelion.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-15 04:23pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Snip Flamebait.
Would it be asking alot to ask you not to throw such obvious flamebait into threads? Seriously, Storm, if you hate the series, the genre, the entire medium, you still don't need to pollute threads like that.
I don't hate the series (haven't seen it but I want to) nor do I hate the genre. I didn't intend that to be flame bait or an insult to Evangelion.

Alright. But I've become trigger-happy with Eva threads... They seem to be the threads that most easily devolve into flame wars on this board.

As for the anti-American stance, I still think it's just normal Jingoism.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-15 04:25pm

SirNitram wrote:A valid question, but as Storm posted it, it's just another blatant invite for Yet Another EVA Flamewar(tm).

If some people take their anime series far too seriously that's too bad.

SirNitram wrote:I don't know, but it doesn't seem much different from other mediums. Think about recent American movies, and how they're even going to rip-off Dog Soldiers instead of release the original. This is jingoism, plain and simple, and it's not just Japanese.

What the hell does that have to do with anime? Sure it's cultural jingoism but why the hell does unrelated politics get dragged into this?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-15 04:27pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:A valid question, but as Storm posted it, it's just another blatant invite for Yet Another EVA Flamewar(tm).
If some people take their anime series far too seriously that's too bad.

SirNitram wrote:I don't know, but it doesn't seem much different from other mediums. Think about recent American movies, and how they're even going to rip-off Dog Soldiers instead of release the original. This is jingoism, plain and simple, and it's not just Japanese.
What the hell does that have to do with anime? Sure it's cultural jingoism but why the hell does unrelated politics get dragged into this?

It's the same phenomenon, as far as I can see. Jingoism in media.

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-09-15 04:27pm

yeah
ROD was as blatant a mocking of the US navy and her president as it got

though the savior force was..er...British

(say, a little off topic question...why isn't there a "royal Army"? i always hear it refered to as the British Army. [why not "english army" or "UK Army"?]

Gasaraki had a NATO force going into a middle eastern country to hunt for WMDs........i watched it like, a month or so before the Iraq War. made me chuckle, if nothing else.
whatever else though, Gasaraki is dull....i mean really really dull. but it's probably a matter of taste.

yeah storm has a point though.

[that said, i gotta agree, americans do it too..well..everyone does it... it's not really related, but anyone who watched the Blackhawk Down movie could not possibly have known that it was Malaysian Army APCs in UN colours that went in there to get the rangers out...]

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-15 04:28pm

SirNitram wrote:Alright. But I've become trigger-happy with Eva threads... They seem to be the threads that most easily devolve into flame wars on this board.

As for the anti-American stance, I still think it's just normal Jingoism.

So blame the idiots and shreiking fan-whores, not me.

Partially. It's part jingoism and part also the sheer unwillingness of the Japanese to face up to WW2. The whole culture really hasn't acknowledged that. And anime which plays up the lone warrior stereotype (one of the reasons for big mecha) so both get a lot worse.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-09-15 04:29pm

Shit sorry about the doublepost

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-09-15 04:38pm

"Fucked-up cultural denial" and "Phallic-symbol" are pretty much flamebait in my book.

Storm, if you've got some examples of what's made you get this pissed off about sereis you haven't seen, just say it. If you've got some specific burning grudge against something/someone, just say it. Baeting around the bush is boring.

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-09-15 04:42pm

er...okay...perhaps it would be helpful if we seperated RL politics and artistic motivations and just addressed that it would appear at least that US military clout in the Eva-verse is still evidently strong, since the most powerful ships and commands are american.

that was the intent of my speculation, though i admit i should have seen it coming...

i suppose i should be thankful no one has (yet) come in to bash the whole "angel easily toys around with entire fleet of modern warships" idea....

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-15 04:46pm

I'm just wondering when the Lone Warrior stereotype became Japanese, myself. I'm not going to get into the question of whether Japan at large has accepted it's past, but seriously, this is America, home of the Western. When the fuck did a Lone Warrior Saving The Day become some other nation's thing?

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-09-15 04:51pm

SirNitram wrote:I'm just wondering when the Lone Warrior stereotype became Japanese, myself. I'm not going to get into the question of whether Japan at large has accepted it's past, but seriously, this is America, home of the Western. When the fuck did a Lone Warrior Saving The Day become some other nation's thing?

Well, it's been common in anime since at least the days of Tetsujin 28 and other super-robots.

Oh, com on. You think America invented the idea of the hero? We just stole it from the greeks, if anyone can be said to steal such an idea. The Lone-Warrior is part of humanity itself.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-15 04:52pm

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I'm just wondering when the Lone Warrior stereotype became Japanese, myself. I'm not going to get into the question of whether Japan at large has accepted it's past, but seriously, this is America, home of the Western. When the fuck did a Lone Warrior Saving The Day become some other nation's thing?
Well, it's been common in anime since at least the days of Tetsujin 28 and other super-robots.

Oh, com on. You think America invented the idea of the hero? We just stole it from the greeks, if anyone can be said to steal such an idea. The Lone-Warrior is part of humanity itself.

That's what I was trying to convey, but yea. Humans love the idea that one guy can do everything that's needed.

After all, what would you do with the power of a god?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-15 04:54pm

"Fucked-up cultural denial" and "Phallic-symbol" are pretty much flamebait in my book.

What else to call a culture that can dismiss things like the Bataan Death March, the Rape of Nanking or any of the other horrendous atrocities as exageration or flat out deny them is fucked up. If the Japanese were European they would be boycotted and shunned by the international community for their attitude about WW2. But since they're a different enthicity it's been overlooked. There's nothing to describe the Japanese attitude towards WW2 except fucked up.

And what else would you call stuff like having mecha so big they can literaly step on carriers? Or giant swimming robots capable of biting US ships in half? Face it anime rarely includes the US as anything but fodder beneath the glorious triumph of the overblown hero.

Storm, if you've got some examples of what's made you get this pissed off about sereis you haven't seen, just say it. If you've got some specific burning grudge against something/someone, just say it. Baeting around the bush is boring.

If you really want to pick a fight, fine. Find some one else for a flame war. But you're missing the point of what I said.

I've got no grudge against Evangelion. But I find the gloriously triumphant mecha a lot overblown.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-15 05:01pm

I'm just wondering when the Lone Warrior stereotype became Japanese, myself.

It's not. And before any one jumps to unwarranted conclusions I wasn't implying that. It's a common enough thing in any media.

Though of course Japan was one of the few countries that tried to build a modern military force around the idea, but that's another story.

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-09-15 05:27pm

hmm..if japanese youth are as apathetic towards history as most youth i know, i suppose it pretty much doesn't matter what is said abt ww2 since it'll go in one ear, be recited at the exam and go right out the other ear...

that said, i'm kind of ambiavalent abt japanese war guilt. (i'm of chinese etnicity myself, so i presumably one of the aggrived parties...) the war and the atrocities were terrible things, yes, but they are 50+ years old, and i really can't summon any emotio0nal outrage at them. and i don;'t really bvegrudge japan's youth for not caring. it was another generations war, after all. not thiers, nor mine.
so long as they don't go about deciding that it's time for a 2nd go around and rattle sabers with the PRChina.....*shrugs*

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-15 05:33pm

hmm..if japanese youth are as apathetic towards history as most youth i know, i suppose it pretty much doesn't matter what is said abt ww2 since it'll go in one ear, be recited at the exam and go right out the other ear...

The problem with it isn't that no cares much so much as know one of their knows it. History has been scrubbed clean over their own war crimes and atrocties and the apologism for the war itself is rampant. The danger isn't in not caring so much as their population ignoring and dismissing what happened.

that said, i'm kind of ambiavalent abt japanese war guilt. (i'm of chinese etnicity myself, so i presumably one of the aggrived parties...) the war and the atrocities were terrible things, yes, but they are 50+ years old, and i really can't summon any emotio0nal outrage at them. and i don;'t really bvegrudge japan's youth for not caring. it was another generations war, after all. not thiers, nor mine.
so long as they don't go about deciding that it's time for a 2nd go around and rattle sabers with the PRChina.....*shrugs*

I don't think they should have to moan and weep over it. But unlike Germany (or for that matter the Allies as well) they've never acknowledged that. There's a danger in ignoring that kind of thing. It makes it all too easy for tragedies like that to reoccur.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-15 09:07pm

Hmm. Big O is pretty unapologetic about taking place in the US and featuring caucasian protagonists. (Paradigm City is clearly supposed to be what became of New York City after the memory-loss event.) Then again, Big O isn't very popular in Japan.

In fact, the one episode that portrayed actual Japanese people showed them as funny little bucktoothed fellows who take pictures of everything, and build colorful overcomplicated mecha that are destroyed with comical ease.

I'm sure if it hadn't been a Japanese cartoon making fun of Japan, it would have been blasted as racist.

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2003-09-15 11:28pm

The attitude of history, as Storm mentioned, is annoying and disturbing. Although it may be a war of the past generation, unfortunately the attitude is brought to THIS generation, as seen in their historical textbooks. "Enter-exiting China." Is this a term used to describe an invasion?!

As for the US in anime/manga I think it's a reflection of the society's mixed attitude. For instance if one finds a series called "Silent Service" you'll get pretty disturbed by the author's biased view. I've also watched an anime about an admiral getting blown up during WW2 and woke up a few years earlier, and then (yawn) starts to rewrite WW2 history. But then again one may notice when the characters in many mangas mention the US, they seem to be talking about a land of dreams, a place of accomplishment. The high school basketball team in Slam Dunk have ridiculously uber skills, yet Rukawa still wants to play ball in America.