Split from EVA question(Anime = Jingoism?)

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-15 11:31pm

Chiyo-chan from Azumanga Daioh wants to study in America as well, Naota's brother in FLCL is a baseball player that goes to play in America.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-09-15 11:40pm

Rukawa from Slam Dunk wanted to compete in America, but his coach forbade it due to the size difference between him and the American players.

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2003-09-16 12:02am

Hamel wrote:Rukawa from Slam Dunk wanted to compete in America, but his coach forbade it due to the size difference between him and the American players.

His coach also said Rukawa could go to America if he was the best in Japan.

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2003-09-16 01:08am

Durran Korr wrote:
R.O.D. appears to be the execption as the director seems to take delight in wasting the U.S. Military and mocking the U.S. President.
Read or Die?

I've heard Gasaraki has some anti-American undertones in it as well...I've got coming in the mail, I'll have to see.

Some? I would call that an understatment. I think the root of the problem is that most Japanese think of themselves as follows:

"Japan is a small isolated trading naiton precariously cut adrift in a hostile world."

In reality this is almost entirly false, but it really represents how many Japanese think of their country. A lot of the explanation is that Japan was always paranoid about being swallowed up by Europeans along with every othe place in that half of the globe (with the possible exception of Thailand). Hence the drive for "(a) wealthy country, (a) strong army." Hence allying with every dominant power from the Dutch to the British to the Germans and now the US.

Oh, and on the other hand, Japan is probably the only country in the world where you can find large blocks of sincere pacifists who have poitical influence. And on the gripping hand, Japan is the largest foreign aid donor in the world, so perhaps they're paying restitution in their own facesaving way.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-09-16 02:10am

Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:
Hamel wrote:Rukawa from Slam Dunk wanted to compete in America, but his coach forbade it due to the size difference between him and the American players.
His coach also said Rukawa could go to America if he was the best in Japan.

The coach told Rukawa that to direct his ambition and drive toward something he can certainly accomplish also while he continuing his education should he can no longer play.

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2003-09-16 03:17am

Rubberanvil wrote:The coach told Rukawa that to direct his ambition and drive toward something he can certainly accomplish also while he continuing his education should he can no longer play.

Ah yes.

Though the intention of playing in the States is still quite something. Plus the attitude when they mention 'how the things go in NBA'...

Some other thoughts about the Japanese manga/anime attitude to "US world dominance", they're Japanese produced, it is unlikely to let the world get saved by somebody else. Heck even in Kishin Corps (another "explanation" of WW2) the Corps solved the problem "wisely" with those mechs while the US could only think of nuking the place.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-09-16 05:51am

Anime is rather self-centered.

Take Shaman King for example. Shamans from all around the world are going to the center of world chaos to gain contact with "the supreme spirit" AKA god. And this chaotic, religiously profound nation is JAPAN?!
One of the most peaceful, most law-abiding, and secular nations in the world?

Shinto hasn't really been significant since its 'god' said he wasn't divine. And from what I've heard, it's really a form of nature worship. Buddhism doesn't have a God, and the most significant site for Japan's other major religion, Christianity, is in Israel. That's where the manga should have gone. Yoh and the gang could have trained in Japan, then traveled to Jerusalem, a city containing some of the holiest sites in 3 world religions, and located in one of the most chaotic regions in the world.

Locating the manga in Japan for the reasons sited is downright ridiculous.

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-09-16 10:15am

well, i would reckon for most people it's something they would prefer to just sweep away and pretend it never happened. then you have those people who want to see Japan as a asian military power, and those who want to stick to the letter and spirit of the pacifist post-constitution.

i suppose it gets thorny when one considers that they do place alot of emphasis on things like remembering Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and sidelining the army's atrocities in China. like i said, i'm ambiavalent.

here in my country the textbooks tend to gloss over the type and nature of the war crimes and focus on how Japan managed to humiliate the British Army in Malaya and bloody america;s nose at pearl harbour...so it's all in your point of view...

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-09-16 03:16pm

Setzer wrote:Anime is rather self-centered.

Take Shaman King for example. Shamans from all around the world are going to the center of world chaos to gain contact with "the supreme spirit" AKA god. And this chaotic, religiously profound nation is JAPAN?!
One of the most peaceful, most law-abiding, and secular nations in the world?

Shinto hasn't really been significant since its 'god' said he wasn't divine. And from what I've heard, it's really a form of nature worship. Buddhism doesn't have a God, and the most significant site for Japan's other major religion, Christianity, is in Israel. That's where the manga should have gone. Yoh and the gang could have trained in Japan, then traveled to Jerusalem, a city containing some of the holiest sites in 3 world religions, and located in one of the most chaotic regions in the world.

Locating the manga in Japan for the reasons sited is downright ridiculous.

And you do realize that had the story been told by an American comic artist, the story would've likely been in New York, or somewhere in the US? Maybe even in some no-name fictional Middle-American suburb, even.

It's just Localization, something everyone does.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-17 01:46am

Setzer wrote:Anime is rather self-centered.

Take Shaman King for example. Shamans from all around the world are going to the center of world chaos to gain contact with "the supreme spirit" AKA god. And this chaotic, religiously profound nation is JAPAN?!
One of the most peaceful, most law-abiding, and secular nations in the world?

Golly gee! Who would've expected Japanese writers to portray their home country as being IMPORTANT! Gosh, it's like a US movie company creating a movie named after July 4th and filling it with pro-American themes! Can you imagine anyone doing something as stupid as that?!

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-17 01:59am

Kuja wrote: Golly gee! Who would've expected Japanese writers to portray their home country as being IMPORTANT! Gosh, it's like a US movie company creating a movie named after July 4th and filling it with pro-American themes! Can you imagine anyone doing something as stupid as that?!

Now that I'm finished with my overly blatent sarcasm, I ask why should anime be held up to such a high standard of portraying the US military correctly? When you went to go see Saving Private Ryan, were you surprised that the majority of the soldiers seen were American? Well, were you? Why should anime be any different? The writers, editors, artists, and voice actors are all/mostly Japanese, so why are you so flipping surprised when they try to portray their own country in a positive light?

Let's use G Gundam as an example. The five main characters are from Japan, America, France, China, and Russia. Does it strike you as unfair that the most important of these characters is from Japan? Does it also strike you as unfair that even though the other four are shown as pretty tough, he beats them all?

Do you honestly believe that the literature of every nation of the world should portray an American as being the best bad-guy basher around? If so, you should really pull your head out of your ass and realize that sunlight is NOT a myth.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-17 02:24am

Frankly, I'm surprised that Storm would lash out like that in the first place. It doesn't seem like him, and frankly, my opinion of him has dropped ever so slightly...

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-09-17 02:39am

I smell a rectal collapse

No, wait, that was just the smell of a thread gone awry

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-09-17 07:12am

well, it does bother some people i know that everything is in japanese and has a japnese bent, but on the whole there are some attempts to incorporate the "rest-of-the-world" if nothing else by with token foreign names and locales.

i mean, i watch a lot of HK drama serials and it's like 100% hong kong + the occasional england, US reference so...i think it's actually rather better then most, anime.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-09-17 01:17pm

I don't mind a little bit of localization, but it gets a bit tiring when the Japanese character is the best and brightest EVERY SINGLE TIME!

I don't mind if Shaman King's author wants to write his series in Japan, but there should be a better reason than "quiet peaceful little Japan is the center of world chaos, and where God will begin his work."

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-17 01:42pm

Setzer wrote:I don't mind a little bit of localization, but it gets a bit tiring when the Japanese character is the best and brightest EVERY SINGLE TIME!

I bet you're the kind of guy who thinks that it's fair and balanced for 98% of American-made movies to be set somewhere in America and have an American hero with American friends and preaching that America is good.

Then you turn around and see anime doing the same thing with Japan and scream "UNFAIR!" Do you even realize how foolish that is?

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-17 02:35pm

Shinto hasn't really been significant since its 'god' said he wasn't divine. And from what I've heard, it's really a form of nature worship. Buddhism doesn't have a God, and the most significant site for Japan's other major religion, Christianity

Well, Christianity isn't so important as it might be if the Tokugawa han't killed every Christian they could find.

I don't mind if Shaman King's author wants to write his series in Japan, but there should be a better reason than "quiet peaceful little Japan is the center of world chaos, and where God will begin his work."

That was most definitely a wee bit odd. Likewise in Yu-Gi-Oh, where the cosmic forces are centered on... a children's card game. Well, it certainly beats nuclear war, but. Pegasus was cool, though, and they showed that the US had Bandit Keith, who was really cool and a great duelist.

Now that I'm finished with my overly blatent sarcasm, I ask why should anime be held up to such a high standard of portraying the US military correctly?

I suspect he was simply angry at the very silly and blatant nature of it. The fact is, we Americans are usually quite proud of our armed forces. Its a little off-putting that anime includes these quiet insults to save their pride. Besides, who doesn't like a little acknowledgement?

When you went to go see Saving Private Ryan, were you surprised that the majority of the soldiers seen were American?

Well, the majority of soldiers on the beaches were American, and they had the toughest jobs of the day. But most importantly, it portrayed fairly realistically the Germans and all. What is so unusual about the anime we've noted is not that is takes place in Japan, with japanese characters, but that it seems to break all bounds of logic.

I am perfectly willing to believe in an anime that there are mighty shamans gathering to order the future of the world at a time and place of great chaos. I have a hard time believing this is Tokyo. Its the little things that get ya...

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-09-17 02:40pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:I am perfectly willing to believe in an anime that there are mighty shamans gathering to order the future of the world at a time and place of great chaos. I have a hard time believing this is Tokyo. Its the little things that get ya...

What the question is: Had Sk been an American series, would you be complaining that it was happening in New York, or Anytown, U.S.A?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-17 02:51pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Frankly, I'm surprised that Storm would lash out like that in the first place. It doesn't seem like him, and frankly, my opinion of him has dropped ever so slightly...

I didn't "lash out" or anything like that. I simply made a blunt statement of fact. Frankly, others have read more into my statement than is there.

I simply noted that Japan's absurd and unhealthy need to save face after WW2 leads them to avoid showing the US military in as a competent and/or skilled force and in most cases not showing them at all. The often absurd plot contraviances they create to avoid even tiny references are common enough through out the genre.

That's all the post was about and all I ever intended it to be about.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-17 02:56pm

Setzer wrote:I don't mind if Shaman King's author wants to write his series in Japan, but there should be a better reason than "quiet peaceful little Japan is the center of world chaos, and where God will begin his work."

Egh. It's no worse than Buffy the Vampire Slayer locating the gates of hell under the heroine's high school in Southern California. It's all a matter of working in familiar context to the audience and the writers. Every genre in every medium does that to a degree.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-09-18 05:34am

Kuja wrote:
Setzer wrote:I don't mind a little bit of localization, but it gets a bit tiring when the Japanese character is the best and brightest EVERY SINGLE TIME!
I bet you're the kind of guy who thinks that it's fair and balanced for 98% of American-made movies to be set somewhere in America and have an American hero with American friends and preaching that America is good.

Then you turn around and see anime doing the same thing with Japan and scream "UNFAIR!" Do you even realize how foolish that is?

Actually, an endlessly pro-American media is rather nauseating. It points to a lack of originality, rather than a truly flawless country. A free thinker will always find something to complain about.

Like Smiling Bandit said, it's the little things that get you. I like Shaman King as a series. It's just the reason for its setting that's flawed.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-18 08:23am

Smiling Bandit wrote:That was most definitely a wee bit odd. Likewise in Yu-Gi-Oh, where the cosmic forces are centered on... a children's card game. Well, it certainly beats nuclear war, but. Pegasus was cool, though, and they showed that the US had Bandit Keith, who was really cool and a great duelist.

Yu-Gi-Oh is a tricky one. It's very clearly set in America, and the majority of the characters are either American, British, or Egyptian (at least a funny looking kind of egyptian as they don't look particularly Arab), but the the major player in it, Yugi Moto, is Japanese, and Kaiba and Mokuba appear to be Japanese as well. Kind of relates to the jingoism thread, it's set in America with mostly American players, but the two best characters in the game are both Japanese.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-18 09:13am

What the question is: Had Sk been an American series, would you be complaining that it was happening in New York, or Anytown, U.S.A?

Wel,, Ney York might be all right - I mean, I can well believe that after 9/11 it was the worldwide center of chaos. But its not really a good choice, since things are getting a lot more controlled and civilized there (crime is down, for one), so its not a good choice. I don't think anywhere in America would be a good choice, wiuth the possible exception of Miami.

Now, if they really showed in the thing a rising tide of chaos, delibertely breaking the conventions of the normal world, then that's OK. But I don't see that, well, at least there wouldn't be any chaos if the shamans weren't running around beating the crap out of each other.

Egh. It's no worse than Buffy the Vampire Slayer locating the gates of hell under the heroine's high school in Southern California. It's all a matter of working in familiar context to the audience and the writers. Every genre in every medium does that to a degree.

Yeah, but Southern California really IS the gateway to hell!

More seriously, you can make an argument for sheer humor value, but (a) I didn't like that part of Buffy and (b) it doesn't denigrate other nations for no apparent reason. I mean, who *wants* to be the Hellmouth?

Yu-Gi-Oh is a tricky one. It's very clearly set in America, and the majority of the characters are either American, British, or Egyptian (at least a funny looking kind of egyptian as they don't look particularly Arab), but the the major player in it, Yugi Moto, is Japanese, and Kaiba and Mokuba appear to be Japanese as well. Kind of relates to the jingoism thread, it's set in America with mostly American players, but the two best characters in the game are both Japanese.

Its a wierd one, but I think its supposed to be set in Tokyo! No, I don't know how or why they have jive-talking black gangsta wannabes in Tokyo, and Jounichi (Joey) and his brown-haired pal who's name escapes me don't seem to be Japanese, but that's what you get.

To be fair, though, Yu-Gi-Oh! is just a little bit odd. I always like checking the card game rules carefully and watching them break them. In his duel with Yugi, Pegasus takes turns out of order, activates cards when he's not supposed to, and so forth.

Anyway, there is a certain truth to the idea that the Japanese felt shamed by their loss in WWII, and despite a desire to assimilate a lot of American culture, they still want to think of themslves as being important to the world. Which they are, just not militarily, and I think the mecha-anime is a way of combining the samurai-bushido tradition with modern tech. The invincible hero, etc. Its a complicated subject, and one that I'm not an expert on. I'm just taking this from college coursework, current articles, and my own opinion, but...

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-09-18 11:20am

It's funny when people go apeshit when the mighty Amerika isn't portrayed as the central, most important place in the world

Reminds me when I made a near-future RPG campaign about a big important obscure city and every player instantly assumed it was in the US (the players were from the US, at least most of them)

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-18 11:40am

Smiling Bandit wrote:Its a wierd one, but I think its supposed to be set in Tokyo! No, I don't know how or why they have jive-talking black gangsta wannabes in Tokyo, and Jounichi (Joey) and his brown-haired pal who's name escapes me don't seem to be Japanese, but that's what you get.

To be fair, though, Yu-Gi-Oh! is just a little bit odd. I always like checking the card game rules carefully and watching them break them. In his duel with Yugi, Pegasus takes turns out of order, activates cards when he's not supposed to, and so forth.

Are you sure it's set in Tokyo? Cause alot of the characters are drawn like Americans. The only characters that really look Japanese are Yugi Moto and Seto and Mokuba Kaiba.