Troops dig into own pockets to pay for gear

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2003-09-15 09:02pm

Troops dig into own pockets to pay for gear

By TARA COPP and JESSICA WEHRMAN
Scripps Howard News Service
September 11, 2003

- Last Christmas, Mike Corcoran sent his mother an unusual Christmas list: He wanted night-vision goggles, a global positioning system and a short-wave radio.

Corcoran, then a Marine sergeant in Afghanistan, wanted the goggles so he could see on patrols. They cost about $2,000 each.

According to an Army internal report released earlier this summer, many ground troops like Corcoran decided to dip into their own pockets to get the equipment they needed to fight in Afghanistan and in Iraq.

"There were a lot of reports of that prior to the war, people would go out and buy their own gear," said Patrick Garrett, a defense analyst with GlobalSecurity.org. "The Army ran out of desert camo boots, and a lot of soldiers were being issued regular black combat boots. Soldiers decided that wasn't for them, so they paid for new boots with their own money."

According to the Pentagon's "Operation Iraqi Freedom Lessons Learned" draft report, soldiers spent their own money to get better field radios, extra ammunition carriers to help them fight better and commercial backpacks because their own rucksacks were too small.

Senior Airman Joe Harvey, based at McGuire AFB in New Jersey, said his clothing allowance is $200 a year from the Air Force, and that most aspects of the uniform, including four sets of combat and dress uniforms are provided.

"But of course with all the wear and tear they don't always last that long," said Harvey, who deployed to Iraq for the war. "Now with some of the units if you rip a pair of bdu's (battle dress uniform) they will give you a new pair. But for the most part you are responsible for buying any new uniform you need except for boots. Your unit will always supply with a free pair of boots."

Harvey said the costs stack up during promotions, when each airman has to purchase new stripes and get them tailored on.

Corcoran, who has since left the Marines, purchased a bunch of items before he deployed. One necessity: baby wipes, because as he said, "a lot of the places you'll go, you won't be taking a shower."

Corcoran also bought his own rucksack, and modified a sling for his M-16 so he was better prepared for patrols. He bought an electric shaver to remove stubble that would keep his gas mask from sealing correctly.

Corcoran got all the items on his Christmas list, including the $2,000 goggles. The short wave radio was meant for entertainment, but he ended up hearing messages urging jihad, and he picked up intelligence from enemy fighters.

And there is one item many soldiers purchased and carried into the desert that wasn't part of the regular equipment.

"Another cool thing to bring with you is an American flag," Corcoran said. "Just in case you plan on conquering anything."

Tara Copp can be reached at coppt(at)shns.com. Jessica Wehrman can be reached at wehrmanj(at)shns.com

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2003-09-15 09:05pm

A response from another forum by "TJ":

US Marines do not get the amount and quality of equipment that the....
.... US Army or the Air Force gets. Their budget is more restrictive than the other branches of the US Armed Forces. They are just more gung ho than the other services. For instance, my son is in a forward support battalion of the 2nd Infantry Division of the US Army. Basically, everyone in that battalion is either a mechanic or an operator. Yet they all have night vision googles. Plus my son has a starlight telescopic sight for the Ma Deuce he is responsible for (about $7,000 for the scope). There is simply no comparision between a US Army heavy division and a Marine division. My son does buy special t-shirts and underwear that are anti-bacterial and wick the moisture away from his body. But that is for his own personal comfort level. He likes to buy special socks and other comfort items. He also has several different sleeping bags and backpacks. When you spend the time in the bush and on the ground that he does, comfort means a lot and you are willing to spend the extra money. If I was in his position I would buy a laser range/distance finder/binoculars and that is probably what I will buy him for Christmas. He also wants a personal satellite phone with a solar cell but I not gonna buy him that until he gets sent to Iraq or something. But I will probably get him a satellite radio so he can listen to his rock and roll (grin).

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-15 09:08pm

The question being is the gear really needed? It doesn't really say whether it's needed or not. And with no information on what unit this is or what their job is I'm just not sure what to make of it.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-09-16 01:18am

When he gets around to mentioning the yearly uniform allowance that's always been the case. I think I got an larger allowance when I'd been in for 4 years but in general it is very difficult to keep yourself in uniforms based on what they allot you.

Also, only a few people were able to get boots out of the Navy. Usually it took a concerted amount of effort for the supply PO to finagle things so the Navy would pay for new boots. In all the cases I remember the people involved got Flight Deck boots instead of the saftey shoes (boondockers) that we normal wore. The Navy was probably paying for them because they needed the specialized gear or because the ones they had were ruined in abnormal conditions (and our chief was feeling generous).

I ruined many pairs of boondockers and even more dungaree uniforms without the Navy paying for more. However, I was issued two sets of coveralls and a foul weather jacket on my last ship. I turned the jacket in (as I was supposed to) when I left but I kept the coveralls.

I think if you have a nice cozy job and don't get promoted too often that the uniform allowance is adequate but otherwise you expect to pay out of pocket most of the time.

I know of a few times where guys were allowed to replace nearly a hole seabags worth of stuff in the ship's store but in those cases I think the military somehow lost the person's original stuff. (actually, one guy I knew replaced his seabag in such a fashion and then 2-3 months down the road his original one finally showed up).

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2003-09-16 02:57am

This doesn't surprise me at all. I saw this happening, but in smaller expenditure amounts, when I was in. No big ticket items that is...

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-09-16 03:01am

EmperorMing wrote:This doesn't surprise me at all. I saw this happening, but in smaller expenditure amounts, when I was in. No big ticket items that is...

Yeah, I never new anyone who bought the equivalent of night vision goggles out of their own pocket for use at work.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-09-16 07:09am

Interesting. When NZ has sent our chaps {and latterly, capettes} overseas and we lack something, we have always managed. Of course, for our guys 'managing' is defined as pinching the kit of other freindly nations.
Example: NZ deploys one infantry company to Bonsnia, with M113 detachment.
APC's lack spall liners.
Canadian M113's have spall liners
Canadian APC crews are soon known to be requesting replacment spall liners.

During WW2, need ammo? need a gun or need a Serman tank? pinch it of the yanks

, beleive me it happned..in that war American base security was crap.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-09-16 07:54am

Pinching other unit (and countries) gear is a proud tradition in practically every military- in the Red Army it was the job of the praporschiks (quasi-analog to NCO/Warrant Officer)

Carey Schofield wrote:"In every unit there is a wizard praporschik who can keep vehicles running forever and prolong the life of electrical appliances far beyond any reasonable expectancy. And it was a praporschik in Afghanistan, men say, who first though of wringing out Aeroflot disinfectant tissues and mixing the liquid with lemonade. These men can fix or invent anything. Soldiers often call praporschiks 'kusoks', meaning literally pieces, but implying bounty- an allusion to the fact that they often work in positions that give them access to desireable goods. The idea that they steal is the basis of most praporschik jokes.

The best known of these concerns a present that arrives in the Kremlin address to Mr Gorbachev, from the President of the United States. Gorbachev unwraps the parcel and, since it is obviously something military, he sends for the Minister of Defense and asks him what it is.

"It's a neutron bomb, comrade President."

"What is that?"

"It's a bomb that eliminates human life but leaves property and material intact."

"I see. But what can we send in return?"

The minister thinks for a minute.

"It's obvious" he says, "we will send a praporschik. They eliminate property and material but leave human life intact."

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-09-16 07:58am

Vympel wrote:Pinching other unit (and countries) gear is a proud tradition in practically every military- in the Red Army it was the job of the praporschiks (quasi-analog to NCO/Warrant Officer)

Carey Schofield wrote:"snip. The idea that they steal is the basis of most praporschik jokes.

snip

Lol..I have the book that came from

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-09-16 08:18am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Lol..I have the book that came from

As do I- great pictures and I got it real cheap too (how unlucky is making a 1991 book on the Red Army when the USSR dissolved the same year)

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-09-16 11:19am

Tis not really that surprising. Rifle slings, extra boots (specialty boots not in inventory), extra mags (replacement mags for when you loose one) or just about every piece of your kit is available for purchase.

Shit breaks, shit gets worn out, and shit takes forever to get replaced if you go through the supply chain. The fact that these guys are buying these things is not a surprise. Come on, have you ever bought something for your job with your own money?

Even the NVG's aren't that bad. My MG squad pitched in and bought a bunch of short ranged walkie talkie for comm because we did not rate radios as an attachment but we needed them. This guy probably didn't rate NVG's as part of the TO&E so he didn't get them. He wanted them, so he bought them.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-09-16 11:13pm

Knife wrote: Shit breaks, shit gets worn out, and shit takes forever to get replaced if you go through the supply chain. The fact that these guys are buying these things is not a surprise. Come on, have you ever bought something for your job with your own money?

Ive spent a couple of hundred dollars in the last year on tools, Id rather have for myself than belong to the company. ( Crimpers, Punchdowns, Tone Generators, Wire Strippers, etc )

Even the NVG's aren't that bad. My MG squad pitched in and bought a bunch of short ranged walkie talkie for comm because we did not rate radios as an attachment but we needed them. This guy probably didn't rate NVG's as part of the TO&E so he didn't get them. He wanted them, so he bought them.

Ive heard that buying cheap walkie talkies for the platoon level is becoming common among Marines. It makes sense. You can buy 2 for 35-40 bucks and they have enough range for the platoon to be usefull but not so long someone can really listen in.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-09-16 11:19pm

Couple of years back, when my Dad was still doing what he was trained to, he asked for his own GPS because his Marine Battalion's HQ Battery didn't have enough to go around (and he was a Lt. Col!). He got one for Father's day, and promptly used it. This was back when civilian GPS were programmed to give a margin of error greater then they do now, and it was still a marked improvement over how they were doing things.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-17 12:16am

Lonestar wrote:This was back when civilian GPS were programmed to give a margin of error greater then they do now, and it was still a marked improvement over how they were doing things.

Its not programming in the box, its the signal the receiverspicked up that was degraded. However that is no longer the case and the satellites are now broadcasting the military grade signal to civilian receivers. The military decided to do this because an upgrade to the satellites allows for selective availability (degrading the civilian single until its only accurate to within a kilometer or so) can now be done regionally rather then affecting the whole world. That makes it much easier to employ in a war since far fewer people will be affected.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-17 12:53am

Knife wrote:Tis not really that surprising. Rifle slings, extra boots (specialty boots not in inventory), extra mags (replacement mags for when you loose one) or just about every piece of your kit is available for purchase.

Shit breaks, shit gets worn out, and shit takes forever to get replaced if you go through the supply chain. The fact that these guys are buying these things is not a surprise. Come on, have you ever bought something for your job with your own money?

Even the NVG's aren't that bad. My MG squad pitched in and bought a bunch of short ranged walkie talkie for comm because we did not rate radios as an attachment but we needed them. This guy probably didn't rate NVG's as part of the TO&E so he didn't get them. He wanted them, so he bought them.

So this is a rather common thing? I'm just curious to know.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-09-17 02:34am

So this is a rather common thing? I'm just curious to know.

Truely it is, I owned about half of a kit myself when I got out. Probably more but had to cough up some for the turn in to replace old and fucked up shit. I also owned a couple radio's and other accessories from slings to specilized gear.

I never bought an NVG but in the early 90's they were alot more expensive then they are today. IIRC, one would have run me about 7 grand at the time.

Everything in that article is normal shit.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-17 03:13am

Just as a point of reference, the average auto mechanic buys five thousand dollars of his own tools at a minimum, even if he works for a dealership.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-09-17 04:42am

Hmm late commer in this thread.

But I owned half the shit I used.

Boots? Swede army boots sucks really hard Got a nice pair from Mum & Dad the day I started.

Sleeping bag? No sutch thing buy it yourself if you vant it.

Undervear? baggy shit or civi style your choise? Socks army crap or civy quality? And so on and on.

It's down to your preference you can use the army stuff but if you bring your own stuff you will be more confotable.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-09-18 02:34pm

We got everything we needed, it wasn't the best, but it was rugged and reliable anyway.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-09-18 03:19pm

The boots they give you in the Army are the best. I lost my pair when I got out, along with the barret and the pin that goes with it.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-09-18 04:54pm

OES was just like that too.

I never saw a more deticated bunch of civic minded theives. We needed a chainsaw we pitched in and bought a real one. Our Saw man kept and paid for his own kit. I mean the state provided Nomex and "baked potatoe bags" but we bought our own boots (because the official ones fell apart too fast), we bought our own undies (ones that keep you cool, and don't turn into fire traps under the nomex), we bought our own Tool maintenace kits, and our own googles, and when ever we went into a Red Cross base camp we would trade our used and destroyed gear, with someone elses who had an easier time replacing it.

Teaches shell out more of their own funds for shit then you would like to think and even cooks like me are known to spend a few hundred dollars at a time on knives and sharpening kits, and lubricants. (Not to mentioned the food sanitation safe Kevlar/chainmail gloves)