Dominion Super Cap Ships

[Master of Ossus]

I don't see any mention of the firepower being greater. Just that it can't measure up to an ISD in any military sense. This can be attributed to the facts that an ISD has more weapons, and better shields. Assuming it's weapon are more powerful is unsupported. However, as I said if you can show me something official that states ISD TL are more powerful than those on the Accalmator then I have no problem with the assumption of 200GT being medium cannons.

That's bullshit and you know it. Read the damn quote again. This time read the part when it talks about the "powerful shields" of the Acclamator, and read the rest of my post where I disprove the ridiculous argument that says that the only reason ISD's are more powerful is because they have more weapons.

[Kamakazie Sith]

We can give you logic. Since for some reason you are unwilling to accept that, you'll just have to go fuck yourself.

Howedar, you said something about the TL on an ISD being larger than those on an Accalmator? Where is the evidence behind this?

[Master of Ossus]

Far larger? What are you talking about? Are the TL on board an ISD far larger than those on the Accalmator?

YES! They are MUCH bigger. The Acclamator's weapons appear large when compared with the Acclamator, but the Acclamator is less than HALF as long as the ISD, and has a mass that is less than ONE FOURTH as great. The weapons on an ISD are FAR larger than the Acclamator weapons. This is also supported by ICS's depictions of the Acclamator and the ISD weapon turret, and by the fact that the Acclamator is trying to minimize internal space used for weapons so it can make more room for troops and their equipment.

[Alyeska]

Wasn't there a ship larger than even those kilometer ones that was seen in the wormhole in "Sacrifice of Angels"? I thought that the big one in the middle was supposed to be larger than that.

Nope. We only saw the Dominion Heavy Cruiser that is roughly the same size as a GCS. Valiant DS9 was the first apperance of a larger Dominion ship (1.2km) and they used that same model for the mythical 5km long ship.

Mmmm. I always thought the one in the center looked bigger than that. Oh well.

Yeah, I thought that to before I got a clip of the episode. On further evulation I noticed that the size of the Galor's in relation to the larger Dominion ships and the general size proved that they were the 600km flavor. The reason they look big is because Dominion ships are quite wide in comparison to Cardassian ships.

[Master of Ossus]

Wait, Galors? I was talking about the ship in the wormhole that Sisko and co. faced before the Prophets made it dissappear. I didn't think there were Galors in that group.

You might be right, though. Perhaps a super-massive Dominion ship is as mythical as Atlantis.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Far larger? What are you talking about? Are the TL on board an ISD far larger than those on the Accalmator?

YES! They are MUCH bigger. The Acclamator's weapons appear large when compared with the Acclamator, but the Acclamator is less than HALF as long as the ISD, and has a mass that is less than ONE FOURTH as great. The weapons on an ISD are FAR larger than the Acclamator weapons. This is also supported by ICS's depictions of the Acclamator and the ISD weapon turret, and by the fact that the Acclamator is trying to minimize internal space used for weapons so it can make more room for troops and their equipment.

Very well, that's good enough for me. I conceed.

[Howedar]

Considering that you apparently did not know that, I apologize.

[Alyeska]

Wait, Galors? I was talking about the ship in the wormhole that Sisko and co. faced before the Prophets made it dissappear. I didn't think there were Galors in that group.

You might be right, though. Perhaps a super-massive Dominion ship is as mythical as Atlantis.

Oh.... THAT fleet scene. Ok, I need a clip before I can comment on that. There is a distinct chance your correct on this.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Just to be clear. I was contesting the points that an ISD must have more firepower just because it's more advanced.

A SCS torpedo launchers are more advanced than those of a GCS, are it's photons more powerful? That's the logic I was fighting against.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Considering that you apparently did not know that, I apologize.

No I didn't. But it's okay, I understand your frustration.

[Master of Ossus]

A SCS torpedo launchers are more advanced than those of a GCS, are it's photons more powerful? That's the logic I was fighting against.

No one really knows. Everyone (including me) assumes that the quantum torpedoes are significantly more powerful than photon torpedoes, but no one seems to know how much more powerful they actually are. They just seem to be photon torpedoes colored blue instead of red, and I think they look a little bigger. It's ROF seems to be comparable to the GCS, and the speed of the torpedoes is similar.

But thanks for conceeding, KSith. It makes life easier on everyone. And believe it or not, people who conceed sometimes are granted MORE respect than people who cling to losing positions indefinitely. I won't name names, though.

[Mr Bean]

Just to be clear. I was contesting the points that an ISD must have more firepower just because it's more advanced.

More Advanced? How about its a dedcated Anti-everything Ship, Is designed to Preform ISDs in a speed way, They have weaponry much larger than the know Accilmator 200 GT weaponry, A MUCH Larger powercore and also more efficant, that Power has to be going somewhere.

Also the damage visable to ships when HTLs strike them
Those Flashs in ROTJ? Those where not expolding ships as no ISDs where lost till after the Excutitor went down yet the bursts went off the in ISD formation, Thefor they must be Flack Bursts from MTLs or HTLS, Some quick scalling from the visabu expolision and we have a nice large figure for how far away they where and how large the expolision
NTM numrious EU descripitons of Weaponry and 30 Meter ships being Vaporised Completly needs a TON of Firepower behind it

[Kamakazie Sith]

A SCS torpedo launchers are more advanced than those of a GCS, are it's photons more powerful? That's the logic I was fighting against.

No one really knows. Everyone (including me) assumes that the quantum torpedoes are significantly more powerful than photon torpedoes, but no one seems to know how much more powerful they actually are. They just seem to be photon torpedoes colored blue instead of red, and I think they look a little bigger. It's ROF seems to be comparable to the GCS, and the speed of the torpedoes is similar.

But thanks for conceeding, KSith. It makes life easier on everyone. And believe it or not, people who conceed sometimes are granted MORE respect than people who cling to losing positions indefinitely. I won't name names, though.

Using logic, and observed evidence it's obvious that QTorp are more powerful than regular photons. One would however not claim that the photons are more powerful than any other photon witnessed.....simply because the SCS is more advanced.

However, as I've said before logic doesn't always win by itself in sci-fi debates due to the absence of logic from the creators. Thus sometimes you need more than just the logic of an ISD being more advanced to = it's weapons being more powerful.

That's where the observed evidence came in, the size difference in the TL emplacements, and that's good enough for me.

[Oberleutnant]

Wasn't there a ship larger than even those kilometer ones that was seen in the wormhole in "Sacrifice of Angels"? I thought that the big one in the middle was supposed to be larger than that.

In "What You Leave Behind" there was at least one huge Dominion ship in the orbit of Cardassia Prime that was several times larger than the 1500 kilometer long battleship. This might be, of course, a scaling fuckup.

Here's a screencap from the Ex Astris Scientia website:



Here's an article about the size of the Dominion battleship from the same website: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... leship.htm

[seanrobertson]

Well the assumption is not unsupported because (as has been stated a million times before) a transport's small guns for self defense are of another caliber than the main guns of a capital warship, you wouldn't say a 6 inch gun is no more powerful than a 16 inch.
Using scaling, Peta-ton estimates are not unreasonable.
200 gigatons, though, are still sufficient.

I think petaton broadsides are...well, they aren't impossible, but I agree with "200 GT are still sufficient" in a slightly different sense (in addition to what you're saying: yes, it'd definitely be enough to take the Dominion
battleship). I generally frown on going too far with ISD total firepower estimates because _Slave Ship_ said this:

...the laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.

IOW, nothing you don't already know...

It doesn't discount the possibility that the heaviest guns on an ISD
are more powerful than, say, the biggest Acclamator guns--we
know this is almost certain given the size differential of said
guns--BUT it's quite a big jump to go from this range to a MILLION
times that, for a single *broadside* no less.

"Big jumps" as such aren't enough to discount the possibility; I can think of plenty of analogous examples from Wars and Trek alike that demonstrate why this'd be a hasty generalization. However, petatonnage is
4E24 to ~3E27J...at a reactor output of 1E25W, how is an ISD going
to power such broadsides (note the plurality...an individual broadside
could potentially be charged up to something even beyond the ship's
total reactor output)? It'd be possible if we were looking at the
low figure, but it doesn't seem very likely that the guns would take up
that much of the ship's total power generation in continuous broadsides,
at least.

I'm throwing that out just off-the-cuff, but does that complaint have any merit? Maybe...let's compare the ISD's total firepower to the Ac's. Assuming Acclamator could fire her heavy guns once/sec.
(the quad turbolasers, 6 per side), that'd be 4.8 teratons/sec., or
about 20 billion terawatts per broadside (2E22W). The ship's main reactor
peaks at 2E23W, so the differential is 1/10. If the ISD is similar,
it'd have a broadside firepower of 1E24W--about 250 teratons per second,
500 teratons/sec. total.

Ignoring everything but the heavy guns again, that'd mean the
biggest weapons would be rated at 7.8 teratons/shot. For a ship
to reach petaton broadsides, it'd need 500 such weapons per side.
That seems pretty excessive...the Death Star certainly qualifies
and then some, but I've never heard of even the mighty Executor
wielding a firepower some 16 times greater than an ISD's. Maybe
total firepower, but per broadside? Again, it seems excessive.

As far as the Dominion ship goes, it's been scaled to about 1,500m
in length. It's three times as powerful as a GCS. We see a ship
approaching 3.5 miles in length of an outwardly identical design in
the last episode of DS9, orbitting Cardassia, but it's ridiculous to
think the same design was just scaled up to those proportions...
some of the Trek FX guys have a real fetish for showing ships at
radically different sizes. In the case of Klingon Birds, I can see
why we'd want to make a scout/heavy cruiser distinction (though
interestingly enough, B'Rel's are the same size as K'Vorts onscreen!),
but with the Jem'Hadar ship? Nah. Definitely not. There's no
reason to.

[Mr Bean]

I don't know of anyone outside of Sir Nitrium(whos been gone for a few weeks) coming up with Peta-level broad sides

However scalling(There is not enough in AOTC to be sure but it seems that ISD MTLs and Accilamtor weaponry are nearly EXACTLY the same size from pic analysis so far however the MTLs are Slight bigger) slaps HTLs somewhere in the low tera-ton range, some place it as high as 25 TTs or so, Generaly I like to stick it down at 4-6(6.250 TT according to one person with 250 GT MTL)

Now then based on Issards Revenge Cap ship battles and others(Notable Thrawn VS pretty much anyone ) we generaly find that to take out another cap ship in a 1 on 1 Fight one needs anywhere from 30 seconds to roughly a mintue to do it
Givin the 2 Sec firing rate(Fire/Recharge/Cooldown/Recharge=2 seconds)
that means anywhere from 15-30 vollys, tradtionaly Vollys meaning anywhere from 22-60 guns, thats a heckave alota shield

While I don't clamin Peta Broad sides, I DO claim High Teraton to very low Peta(IE under 2) Ton shielding, considering the power of weapons we are talking about and the time it takes for ships to pick each other apart

[seanrobertson]

I don't know of anyone outside of Sir Nitrium(whos been gone for a few weeks) coming up with Peta-level broad sides

However scalling(There is not enough in AOTC to be sure but it seems that ISD MTLs and Accilamtor weaponry are nearly EXACTLY the same size from pic analysis so far however the MTLs are Slight bigger) slaps HTLs somewhere in the low tera-ton range, some place it as high as 25 TTs or so, Generaly I like to stick it down at 4-6(6.250 TT according to one person with 250 GT MTL)

Interesting. Somehow, playing around w/ nos. in my previous post,
I came up with 7.8 teratons/shot from the same heavy guns. We
could round it up to 8

Now then based on Issards Revenge Cap ship battles and others(Notable Thrawn VS pretty much anyone ) we generaly find that to take out another cap ship in a 1 on 1 Fight one needs anywhere from 30 seconds to roughly a mintue to do it

I haven't seen much from that source, though I do know who to talk
to where specifics are concerned (Mr. Gerhls, naturally ). Were
these ISDs of roughly the same make fighting one another?

Givin the 2 Sec firing rate(Fire/Recharge/Cooldown/Recharge=2 seconds)
that means anywhere from 15-30 vollys, tradtionaly Vollys meaning anywhere from 22-60 guns, thats a heckave alota shield

Yeah. Say 15 volleys times 22 guns at 8 teratons apiece, that's 176 teratons per volley. Since this eventually hammers down the shield,
it's probably slightly in excess of the ISD's peak shield dissipation
rate, depleting it by no more than about 10%/volley. That'd put
the shields at a total strength of at least 2.6 petatons.

One note: that's the total amount of energy taken prior to failure,
over the course of roughly one minute. To express the ISD's
peak shield rate a'la the Ep. 2 _ICS_, we'd need to take a closer
look at the per volley outputs...if nothing else, it'd be in that neighborhood.
175 teratons delivered over, say, a full second (arbitrary no., but Wars guns do seem to stagger fire...), would correlate to 7E23W if my math is
correct. That's a little more than thrice the Acclamator's peak
shield rate, though as a fast attack ship of sorts it might rely on
shielding more than an ISD does. (Being a *destroyer*, the ISD *should*
emphasize firepower and quickness over heavy armor and defenses,
God help Star Trek.)

That's a possible underestimate given that we really don't know how
powerful HTLs are, though I venture to guess the ISD's shield
output would be *approximately* in that range. As I said, since
they are destroyers, albeit heavy ones, they're built for quick,
hard strikes, not long exchanges of fire. The battlecruisers of the
Imperial Navy, relatively uncommon as they might *appear* to be,
are the real muscle.


While I don't clamin Peta Broad sides, I DO claim High Teraton to very low Peta(IE under 2) Ton shielding, considering the power of weapons we are talking about and the time it takes for ships to pick each other apart[/quote]

[Mr Bean]

Were
these ISDs of roughly the same make fighting one another?

The Moonshadow and Direcptation, fresh and not a scratch on either one had a between 10-25 second battle before with the final volly each took the other's bow shields down and then the Dirceptation got jumped by two more SDs and a Dreadnaught and was toasted
So 2 Second firing rate gives us between 5-12 Vollys at each otheIt should be noted, both where in broad side firing position

[seanrobertson]

No it could not be. Here's the evidence: SW Insider's latest copy said that the firepower of an ISD is greater than that of the Acclamator. It said that the Acclamator was no match for Imperator class ships (directly).

From what I remember, that's correct.

It then said that in combat the Acclamator relied on starfighters and its shields for protection. Now, if the ISD was only as powerful as the Acclamator in terms of weapon for weapon (ie. If the ISD's largest weapons were 200GT), then there would be no reason to build them. They would be about four times as massive as the Acclamator, be MUCH slower,

Slower sublight, perhaps, but there are few if any more nimble ships
that could still truly threaten an ISD so far as I know.

Also, KIM that the mass of a ship like an Imperator seems
to be no concern for the Empire whatsoever. Since they've built
800 km wide Death Stars (or *about* did), the mass of an ISD
would be insignificant...if it only meant greater armor and more
individual weapons emplacements over the Accs, they might think
it's a "go."

and have no additional troops. Thus, the Acclamator would be a much better investment over all. From this we must conclude that the Acclamator's weapons are significantly less powerful than those on the ISD II.

Hmm...I think in general, that's an affirmative. I'd be careful how
I qualify as much, however...I, myself, recently pegged an ISD's
heaviest guns at approximately 8 teratons/shot. A broadside would
be slightly in excess of 250 teratons. The ISD's total firepower would
be roughly half a petaton, though how long it takes for it to deliver
as much is unknown...over the course of a fraction-second, full
second, or several seconds? (I would guess the latter, since it usually
does take a few seconds to see ALL of a destroyer's turbolaser
stations light a target up.)

An Acclamator has 12 heavy quad guns, each rated at 200 gigatons/shot. I assume that means per *bolt*, as in out of each
of 4 of the quad cannons, essentially bringing the total to 48
such heavy weapons. With half of those guns brought to bear
in a broadside, that's 4.8 teratons.

That's a differential of almost 37 times. Seems a bit excessive on the face of things, since usually a ten-fold increase in a Wars ship's volume doesn't correlate to such a vast increase in firepower; e.g., ISDs vs. Executors.

Anyway, I digress, as usual...

In addition, the sheer size of many of the weapons on the ISD's indicates that their firepower should be greater than the weapons on the Acclamator. Although the Acclamator's weapons seem very large, they are really very small compared to the largest weapons on the ISD II. In fact, they are of comparable size to the Medium weapons seen firing repeatedly in RotJ! Clearly the ISD II is vastly more powerful than the Acclamator.

Repeatedly? I don't recall that, though some of the RoTJ battles
are rather hard for me to remember, not having seen the film in
some time plus the whole chaotic nature of said battles.

---------------------------------------------
At 752 meters long, the Republic assault ship is less than half the size of
the classic Imperial Star Destroyer. Unlike its big cousin, it can land on
planetary surfacs and sports a lightning fast Class 0.6 hyperdrive. There's
no way Republic assault ships can measure up against Star Destroyers by any military yardstick, but they were never designed for ship-to-ship combat.
Thier armaments, including twelve turbolasers and four torpedo launchers,
are best suited for orbital bombardments in support of ground troops. Each
ship also has twenty-four laser cannons for short-range defense that aren't
terribly accurate. In a space battle, Republic assault ships rely on
starfighter escorts and let thier robust sheild generators absorb stray
shots."

Hmm...from a comparative standpoint, "robust shield generators" doesn't necessarily bode well for the ISDs themselves. Does that intimate ISDs
have "less robust" shields? (I doubt it, but I thought I'd throw it out.)

Also, as you point out, the 24 "laser cannons" are not "terribly accurate."
That alone could potentially take the Acc out of the fight: rather
than relying on sheer power alone, perhaps the ISDs simply have
far more accurate weaponry. Or something similar.

Note: I don't hold that view, but it's a potential nit.

I don't see any mention of the firepower being greater. Just that it can't measure up to an ISD in any military sense. This can be attributed to the facts that an ISD has more weapons, and better shields. Assuming it's weapon are more powerful is unsupported. However, as I said if you can show me something official that states ISD TL are more powerful than those on the Accalmator then I have no problem with the assumption of 200GT being medium cannons.

Awww, crud. Sorry Sith, I'm not responding to you much at all, am I?
I'm responding to that which you're responding

Anyway, turns out I agree with you. I do think the ISD's heaviest guns
are probably more powerful than the Acclamator's, but not by
some of the margins indicated above in my spit-balling. Given what
we have in _Slave Ship_, I have to rate all of an ISD's weapons at no
more than 999 gigatons/shot. They could easily have a superior
firing rate and blow past an Acclamator's total firepower, even
without the teraton-range/shot guns I want to attribute to them.

[His Divine Shadow]

That's a differential of almost 37 times. Seems a bit excessive on the face of things, since usually a ten-fold increase in a Wars ship's volume doesn't correlate to such a vast increase in firepower; e.g., ISDs vs. Executors

Do you have any figures?
In Darksaber there was a rough indication that an SSD was worth around 20 ISD's

[Isolder74]

That's a differential of almost 37 times. Seems a bit excessive on the face of things, since usually a ten-fold increase in a Wars ship's volume doesn't correlate to such a vast increase in firepower; e.g., ISDs vs. Executors

Do you have any figures?
In Darksaber there was a rough indication that an SSD was worth around 20 ISD's

if you multiply the volume by ten you would increase the surface area by a factor of about 22 times. With all of the new surface space a 20 increase in fire seem reasonble.

[His Divine Shadow]

Evidence that this technology is able to be employed on Capital ship weapons? Your concession is accepted.

The Death Star Superlaser is special technology, you need proof if you wish to claim that it's technology is also used aboard ISDs.

We need a WTF icon.
Anyhow it's stated multiple times the superlaser is a massive turbolaser system, it's been used on the Eclipse and Sovereign ships, Booster Terriks personal ISD is said to have a minimized version of it based on the Darksabers superlaser, we see the weapons being used on LAATS.

[Doomriser]

1. Trekkies - don't waste time assuming that ISDs have guns no more powerful than those on an Acclamator. You're just going to look silly if future SW official publications give higher figures for the much larger combat starships later in the saga.

2. I'm sick and tired of hearing this "Oh well, then we'll just use the Trek high-end estimates then" line of 'reasoning' (or more correctly termed, pathetic threats). Whether estimates are high-end or low-end, the figures must be derived through proper scientific method and NOT wishful thinking. You can't just assume that your incorrect interpretations of certain ST episodes (e.g. TDiC) are equivalent to "high-end" estimates. An example of s more proper estimate comes from the low-end SW estimates for turbolaser firepower on this website. The ~2 gigatonne figure is from the most minimal possible firepower estimates (e.g. "multi-gigatonne" = 2 GT or simple scaling up of HTLs from conservative LTL asteroid calcs) whereas the "realistic" estimates are based on the actual firepower required for SW ships to do what they do.

3. Even if this super-battleship existed, I would question its power not only in relation to SW ships which would blow it away in one shot or at the very worst, one broadside, but in relation to ST ships. The prototype version we saw had a massive structural flaw, possibly coinciding with MW's theory about the insect-exoskeleton size limitations of ST ships. It may have "less bang for the buck" so-to-speak. Further analysis for this theory will probably be based on the performance of the Scimitar in ST:X.

[Ender]

I've been able to get Petaton level broadsides, but only on the Executor class.

[Master of Ossus]

The Trekkie argument that SW weapons seem excessive is the one that really pisses me off. They would be excessive for our warfare, but they are NOT excessive for Star Wars combat. Capital ships NEED firepower in SW at that level in order to effectively fight their enemies. It is too bad that it would be a lot of firepower for us, but it is a perfectly normal level of firepower for SW. Also note that the Acclamator dedicates practically NO internal space to weapons. The ISD does. Too bad, so sad, SW combat requirements are far greater than combat in RL, today. Just as a Roman Legion would probably see thermonuclear weapons as being excessively powerful, we sometimes see SW weapons as being excessively powerful, but they are not by the standards of the day.