Split from EVA question(Anime = Jingoism?)

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-09-18 12:13pm

Maybe I'm mad, but for a time I always saw Japan as sucking up to America despite them getting nuked twice by the US.

But now I think about it, the UN, the way Japan often has America in a low power position or equal power in some cases, guess it fits.

I was going to say the same about the UK which isn't as prominent in animé since we lost empire status, but RoD and other animés have the UK in a fairly good light compared to what Gasaraki supposedly does. I'd catch it on Sci-Fi but they show it at 0900 in the morning, may just buy the DVDs.

And to answer someone's question, there is the TA or British Territorial Army because there was no real Royal acknowledged army until Charles II. "Royal" is only given to organisations owned by the sovereign, so you can get the Royal Regiment of Artillery, but the whole army was never classed as this. It's politics and status/nobility.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-09-18 12:21pm

Kuja wrote:
Setzer wrote:Anime is rather self-centered.

Take Shaman King for example. Shamans from all around the world are going to the center of world chaos to gain contact with "the supreme spirit" AKA god. And this chaotic, religiously profound nation is JAPAN?!
One of the most peaceful, most law-abiding, and secular nations in the world?

Golly gee! Who would've expected Japanese writers to portray their home country as being IMPORTANT! Gosh, it's like a US movie company creating a movie named after July 4th and filling it with pro-American themes! Can you imagine anyone doing something as stupid as that?!

Well it's not always like that, Spriggan had the Ark where it was meant to be near Turkey and other animés aren't so home-hugging.

But your general point is valid.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-18 12:43pm

Are you sure it's set in Tokyo? Cause alot of the characters are drawn like Americans. The only characters that really look Japanese are Yugi Moto and Seto and Mokuba Kaiba.

I know, I know, and a lot of animes do this. Its just wierd and has no logic behind it, but Tokyo is more like New York than, say, Kyoto in anime.

But I though this thread was really about Japan ignoring the US military in anbime and not about where the shows are placed?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 01:15pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:But I though this thread was really about Japan ignoring the US military in anbime and not about where the shows are placed?

Actually, Nitram more or less wanted to rant about Hollywood movies so he split it. There's no real over all topic any more.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-18 01:16pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Smiling Bandit wrote:But I though this thread was really about Japan ignoring the US military in anbime and not about where the shows are placed?
Actually, Nitram more or less wanted to rant about Hollywood movies so he split it. There's no real over all topic any more.

Well, if that's what you want to believe, I suppose you're allowed.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 01:26pm

SirNitram wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Actually, Nitram more or less wanted to rant about Hollywood movies so he split it. There's no real over all topic any more.
Well, if that's what you want to believe, I suppose you're allowed.

Well, the dicussion was about why Japan avoided showing military forces and you decided to just unload on Hollywood (and split the thread to do so).

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-18 01:28pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Actually, Nitram more or less wanted to rant about Hollywood movies so he split it. There's no real over all topic any more.
Well, if that's what you want to believe, I suppose you're allowed.
Well, the dicussion was about why Japan avoided showing military forces and you decided to just unload on Hollywood (and split the thread to do so).

No, Stormbringer. I realize you missed the point the first few times, so I'll say it again. What you are accusing the Japanese of is done in every country, the USA included. I gave an example of the USA doing it. Of course, since this upsets your preconcieved notions, it's now a 'rant against Hollywood'.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 01:31pm

SirNitram wrote:No, Stormbringer. I realize you missed the point the first few times, so I'll say it again. What you are accusing the Japanese of is done in every country, the USA included. I gave an example of the USA doing it. Of course, since this upsets your preconcieved notions, it's now a 'rant against Hollywood'.

Except you're ignoring the fact that it's done for different reasons. And that it's really a rather new development in Hollywood. You're not wrong that Hollywood. You're just missing the entire point of what I said simply so you could unload on Hollywood.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-18 01:36pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:No, Stormbringer. I realize you missed the point the first few times, so I'll say it again. What you are accusing the Japanese of is done in every country, the USA included. I gave an example of the USA doing it. Of course, since this upsets your preconcieved notions, it's now a 'rant against Hollywood'.
Except you're ignoring the fact that it's done for different reasons. And that it's really a rather new development in Hollywood. You're not wrong that Hollywood. You're just missing the entire point of what I said simply so you could unload on Hollywood.

You'll pardon me if I don't buy that it's 'really a rather new development', as I've seen older films and shorts, and all are still quite pro-American, even ignoring the war years. Perhaps not as ridiculously rabidly as the most recent years, but the jingoism you accuse others of is still there. I don't see where you get 'different reasons' for it, but.

As for me 'missing the entire point', how exactly am I supposed to interperate that phrase, hrm? I gave an example of your own country doing what you accused others of. How is that 'just unloading on Hollywood'?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 01:52pm

You'll pardon me if I don't buy that it's 'really a rather new development', as I've seen older films and shorts, and all are still quite pro-American, even ignoring the war years. Perhaps not as ridiculously rabidly as the most recent years, but the jingoism you accuse others of is still there. I don't see where you get 'different reasons' for it, but.

Actually, there's a huge difference between pro-American movies (Midway) and leaving out other nations even when they should have been included (U-571). The former is happens. What do you expect? A pro-nazi war movie? The latter has only taken root within the ninties.

As for me 'missing the entire point', how exactly am I supposed to interperate that phrase, hrm? I gave an example of your own country doing what you accused others of. How is that 'just unloading on Hollywood'?

You're missing the point because you're too fucking hard headed to read what I wrote. And because it's entirely unrelated to the topic disccussed. Enough so that you had to split the topic!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-18 02:42pm

Where are most American movies set, Stormbringer? What's the nationality of most heros? At no point am I arguing that U-571 is the norm, I'm pointing out America is just as jingoistic as the rest of the world historically.

Since I'm so 'hard headed', maybe you can state it in simpler terms. Cause what I saw is you claiming Japan will shrink from displaying America at what you perceive to be her full glory at every turn in Anime(Nevermind this is full of it.. Even with my tiny reparte of Anime knowledge, two major series feature almost no Japan and showcase symbols seen as American icons, the Space Shuttle(Cowboy Bebop), and New York City(Big O)).

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-09-18 02:50pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Smiling Bandit wrote:Its a wierd one, but I think its supposed to be set in Tokyo! No, I don't know how or why they have jive-talking black gangsta wannabes in Tokyo, and Jounichi (Joey) and his brown-haired pal who's name escapes me don't seem to be Japanese, but that's what you get.

To be fair, though, Yu-Gi-Oh! is just a little bit odd. I always like checking the card game rules carefully and watching them break them. In his duel with Yugi, Pegasus takes turns out of order, activates cards when he's not supposed to, and so forth.
Are you sure it's set in Tokyo? Cause alot of the characters are drawn like Americans. The only characters that really look Japanese are Yugi Moto and Seto and Mokuba Kaiba.

Yugi looks Japanese?

The only thing that I could see making the other characters look non-Japanese(at least compared to Yugi and the Kaibas) is their names, and those were changed from the original Japanese version(Americanization strikes again!).

Their original names, used in the Manga(Viz's graphic novels and Shonen Jump) are:

Joey Wheeler -- Katsuya Jonouchi
Tristan Taylor -- Hiroto Honda
Tea Gardner -- Mazaki Anzu

BTW, the Manga kicks off a lot different than the Anime. Duel Monsters(and Kaiba) doesn't even show up until Duel(episode/issue) Seven, and so far, that's been it's only appearance. And Yugi tends to do very, very nasty things to those who go after him and his friends.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-18 03:29pm

however, the characters do look kind of western - even by anime standards.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-18 04:02pm

Actually, the purpose of this thread was to remove a semi-racist and ill informed snipe by Storm from a discussion as to why the US military doesn't appear in Evangelion.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-18 04:38pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Actually, the purpose of this thread was to remove a semi-racist and ill informed snipe by Storm from a discussion as to why the US military doesn't appear in Evangelion.

How was it semi-racist or ill-informed? It's true that the US military is almost always part of the UN in animes, when they aren't destroyed or the butt of a joke. It's true that Japan does seem to have cultural denials stemming from WW2. And it's true that the Evas are huge penis envy machines.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 04:45pm

SirNitram wrote:Where are most American movies set, Stormbringer? What's the nationality of most heros? At no point am I arguing that U-571 is the norm, I'm pointing out America is just as jingoistic as the rest of the world historically.

Which had nothing to do with the point of the thread at all! I pointed out that Japan flinches from showing any US military not being destroyed or made fun of because of the cultural issues stemming from WW2. It had nothing to do with jingoism/patriotic issues. You just wanted to rant about American cinema.

SirNitram wrote:Since I'm so 'hard headed', maybe you can state it in simpler terms. Cause what I saw is you claiming Japan will shrink from displaying America at what you perceive to be her full glory at every turn in Anime(Nevermind this is full of it.. Even with my tiny reparte of Anime knowledge, two major series feature almost no Japan and showcase symbols seen as American icons, the Space Shuttle(Cowboy Bebop), and New York City(Big O)).

Not fully glory or any of that crap. You're missed the point yet again. Japanese popular culture shrinks away from showing the US military in any sort of favorable light because of their ostrich mentality when it comes to WW2.

The space shuttle and New York City have nothing to do with it.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-18 04:46pm

The Evas are tools. Nothing more. But that doesn't have to do with anything for this thread...

Storm assumed that it was because of some sort of jingoism bullshit where the Japanese are trying to save face, without knowing that the real reason is because the US no longer exists as a military and economic power, as their forces have been absorbed by the UN and the post-Second Impact chaos ruined their economy.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 04:50pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Actually, the purpose of this thread was to remove a semi-racist and ill informed snipe by Storm from a discussion as to why the US military doesn't appear in Evangelion.

Shut the fuck up you little moron. My point had nothing to do with race you. It's not racist simply to say something bad about Japan you stupid little shit. It otaku asskissers like you that piss me off. Japan is not a fucking utopia. Simply because I said something bad about them doesn't make me racist. God, what the fuck happened to your brain?

I made the perfectly true observation that Japan has some serious denial issues with regards to WW2. One of the symptoms of that is a reluctance to show the US military as anything more than cannon fodder or the butt of joke. That's all there is too it. If you want to read more into it than that you're just a shit headed idiot.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-18 04:56pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Where are most American movies set, Stormbringer? What's the nationality of most heros? At no point am I arguing that U-571 is the norm, I'm pointing out America is just as jingoistic as the rest of the world historically.
Which had nothing to do with the point of the thread at all! I pointed out that Japan flinches from showing any US military not being destroyed or made fun of because of the cultural issues stemming from WW2. It had nothing to do with jingoism/patriotic issues. You just wanted to rant about American cinema.

Uh-huh. Sure, Storm. What else am I thinking, since you seemed to think you know such things?

SirNitram wrote:Since I'm so 'hard headed', maybe you can state it in simpler terms. Cause what I saw is you claiming Japan will shrink from displaying America at what you perceive to be her full glory at every turn in Anime(Nevermind this is full of it.. Even with my tiny reparte of Anime knowledge, two major series feature almost no Japan and showcase symbols seen as American icons, the Space Shuttle(Cowboy Bebop), and New York City(Big O)).
Not fully glory or any of that crap. You're missed the point yet again. Japanese popular culture shrinks away from showing the US military in any sort of favorable light because of their ostrich mentality when it comes to WW2.

The space shuttle and New York City have nothing to do with it.

Ah, so post apocalyptic worlds must have intact militaries.. Right. Whatever, Storm. So tell me, how many post-apocalyptic series made by Americans show, for example, England's navy in a favourable light? Or South Korea's military? Or India's? Oh, that's right, none. Perhaps it's because of America's Ostritch Mentality over the War of 1812.. Or maybe it's just jingoism.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-18 04:58pm

Oh, so it's different when the US tries to save face and has issues with denial?

We're not some fucking golden arbiter when it comes to past treatment and choices with other nations and people, you know. Don't fucking act like you know all about me. I'm not some god damn fucking masterbatory otaku that thinks Japan is perfect, you cunt.

Perhaps I was wrong with suggesting a racist allusion, and I apologise for that. The main issue I have is that your original suggestion that spawned this thread split was highly inaccurate specifically for Eva. I have zero tolerance for inaccuracy as an individual: it's nothing personal.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 05:05pm

Uh-huh. Sure, Storm. What else am I thinking, since you seemed to think you know such things?

Well, what am I supposed to think you're doing when you start a completely off topic rant? The threads topic nor my post had anything to do with what you posted so what was the point save another rant over Hollywood and bad history?

Ah, so post apocalyptic worlds must have intact militaries.. Right. Whatever, Storm. So tell me, how many post-apocalyptic series made by Americans show, for example, England's navy in a favourable light? Or South Korea's military? Or India's? Oh, that's right, none. Perhaps it's because of America's Ostritch Mentality over the War of 1812.. Or maybe it's just jingoism.

If it's intact enough to have super fucking carriers it wasn't too hard hit. And besides, when it's a US ship, UN flag one has to wonder why not just call it a US ship.

Besides, Evangelion is hardly the only series to do that. It's happened in everything to from Godzilla on down. It's hardly one incident.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-18 05:08pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Uh-huh. Sure, Storm. What else am I thinking, since you seemed to think you know such things?
Well, what am I supposed to think you're doing when you start a completely off topic rant? The threads topic nor my post had anything to do with what you posted so what was the point save another rant over Hollywood and bad history?

If you paid attention, you'd know it was to point out the US movie industry does the same thing you're whining that anime does. I have no 'beef' with American cinema for it as I understand that jingoism exists. I'm merely insulted you continually try and twist my words to fit what you want.

Ah, so post apocalyptic worlds must have intact militaries.. Right. Whatever, Storm. So tell me, how many post-apocalyptic series made by Americans show, for example, England's navy in a favourable light? Or South Korea's military? Or India's? Oh, that's right, none. Perhaps it's because of America's Ostritch Mentality over the War of 1812.. Or maybe it's just jingoism.
If it's intact enough to have super fucking carriers it wasn't too hard hit. And besides, when it's a US ship, UN flag one has to wonder why not just call it a US ship.

Besides, Evangelion is hardly the only series to do that. It's happened in everything to from Godzilla on down. It's hardly one incident.

Nor are US films failing to show other militaries in a favourable light. But you can't rebutt this, so you'll again claim it's 'a rant against hollywood'.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-18 05:10pm

Stormbringer wrote:If it's intact enough to have super fucking carriers it wasn't too hard hit. And besides, when it's a US ship, UN flag one has to wonder why not just call it a US ship.

When it clearly isn't. How many times do Uts and I have to explain such?

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-09-18 05:13pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote: I was going to say the same about the UK which isn't as prominent in animé since we lost empire status, but RoD and other animés have the UK in a fairly good light compared to what Gasaraki supposedly does.

Iirc Japan and GB have had very good relations for a long time. During the late 1800s to the early 1930s much of japan society, government and the court system been modeled after GB.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 05:13pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Oh, so it's different when the US tries to save face and has issues with denial?

You mean how we ignored the firebombings? Or the A-bombs? Like those?

Face it, any nation that can deny things like the Bataan Death March and the Rape of Nanking has some serious fucking problems with denial.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:We're not some fucking golden arbiter when it comes to past treatment and choices with other nations and people, you know. Don't fucking act like you know all about me. I'm not some god damn fucking masterbatory otaku that thinks Japan is perfect, you cunt.

No? Then why the fuck do you jump down anyone throat when they say something bad about Japane? Hell, you were screaming your head off about racism over the stupid pun term Japanimation!

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Perhaps I was wrong with suggesting a racist allusion, and I apologise for that. The main issue I have is that your original suggestion that spawned this thread split was highly inaccurate specifically for Eva. I have zero tolerance for inaccuracy as an individual: it's nothing personal.

You know Spanky, you're way too quick to call anyone a racist. Stop and think instead of crying wolf next time. You've got a brain for reason, use it.

It might be somewhat inaccurat with regards to Eva. I haven't seen the show. But from what had been said previously it seemd the case that they were trying to call a duck a turkey simply to fit the cultural taboos.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Split from EVA question(Anime = Jingoism?)

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