This will piss our non American gay members

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-09-18 12:07pm

Gay families forbidden...enter as single people

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-18 12:15pm

Guess they didn't learn the rules of dealing with bureaucracy!

ALWAYS BE NICE TO THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE DESK!

They only have the power to deny you stuff, and if you piss
them off, they'll use it.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-18 12:23pm

How stupid of the customs officials.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-09-18 01:41pm

I should really be outraged, and i am kinda upset. However this kinda thing is just power for the course.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 01:41pm

Bourassa, who works as an advocate for same-same marriage, said the couple made the decision not to fill out separate form because they felt it was an insult to their dignity.

So they were just doing this to prove a point? They knew this was going to happen and did it to prove a point. Good for them. I don't see why they're getting so huffy now that they got the reaction they expected.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-18 03:34pm

So the article is about a US Customs official actually following procedure and US law? Yeah, horrors that that should happen.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-18 04:17pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:So the article is about a US Customs official actually following procedure and US law? Yeah, horrors that that should happen.

Yeah, I mean, the US should have the ability to suppress equal rights when they conflict with the "superior" Christian morality this country runs by, right?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-18 04:59pm

Dalton wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:So the article is about a US Customs official actually following procedure and US law? Yeah, horrors that that should happen.
Yeah, I mean, the US should have the ability to suppress equal rights when they conflict with the "superior" Christian morality this country runs by, right?

The horror of a low level paper pusher doing his job because he needs it. Most government employees don't have the luxury of making some dramatic political stand every time a little quibble happens. Take it up with the courts or the officials in charge. But the guy just did his job.

It's not like they're breaking up the marriage. They just have to fill out two forms. The horror, the HORROR!

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-09-18 05:01pm

Well, it did say that they took it up with the customs supervisor.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-09-18 09:06pm

dont these people have more important things to do, like look for terrorists?

I dont think a canadian couple is going to strap on c4.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-18 10:26pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Dalton wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:So the article is about a US Customs official actually following procedure and US law? Yeah, horrors that that should happen.
Yeah, I mean, the US should have the ability to suppress equal rights when they conflict with the "superior" Christian morality this country runs by, right?
The horror of a low level paper pusher doing his job because he needs it. Most government employees don't have the luxury of making some dramatic political stand every time a little quibble happens. Take it up with the courts or the officials in charge. But the guy just did his job.

It's not like they're breaking up the marriage. They just have to fill out two forms. The horror, the HORROR!

It's the law that I'm pissed off at, not the mouth-breathing doofus who has to follow it.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-09-18 10:51pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:dont these people have more important things to do, like look for terrorists?

I dont think a canadian couple is going to strap on c4.

So you're saying that teh Coast Guard, Border patrol, etc should stop lookign for drug traffickers, illegal immigrants, and other violating US laws simply to look for terrorists?

Now for clarification I am NOT trying to equate what this couple did with any of those things but it is the same mentality. Just because you are looking for terrorists doesn't mean you stop enforcing the rest of the United States Code regarding immigration and issuance of visas.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-18 10:54pm

I would like to know if there is a specific section of the code which explicitly instructs Customs agents to force gay married couples from another country to enter as separate individuals.

Quite frankly, I find it highly doubtful that the regs are clear about what should be done in this case, and I strongly suspect that the Customs officer in question took some "initiative" in deciding to interpret the regs in the manner which would cause the most possible inconvenience for this couple.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-18 10:57pm

I would like to know if there is a specific section of the code which explicitly instructs Customs agents to force gay married couples from another country to enter as separate individuals.

Probably not. But I should think legislative grace would be required to mandate allowing gay couples into the country as married couples.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-09-18 10:59pm

It is horrible. It is fucking horrible that 2 legally married people cannot get into the US unless they act as if they arent married.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-18 10:59pm

Dalton wrote: Yeah, I mean, the US should have the ability to suppress equal rights when they conflict with the "superior" Christian morality this country runs by, right?

So you want the customs officials to ignore the law and simply make all the decisions on the fly? Yeah I'm sure that will work real great. Let adapt it for the legal system as well. We dont need that pesky bill of rights getting in the way of the truth.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-18 10:59pm

Durran Korr wrote:
I would like to know if there is a specific section of the code which explicitly instructs Customs agents to force gay married couples from another country to enter as separate individuals.
Probably not. But I should think legislative grace would be required to mandate allowing gay couples into the country as married couples.

So, if in doubt, err on the side of oppression? Interesting approach ...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-18 11:01pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Dalton wrote:Yeah, I mean, the US should have the ability to suppress equal rights when they conflict with the "superior" Christian morality this country runs by, right?
So you want the customs officials to ignore the law and simply make all the decisions on the fly? Yeah I'm sure that will work real great. Let adapt it for the legal system as well. We dont need that pesky bill of rights getting in the way of the truth.

Just curious: if a polygamist from a Muslim country shows up at the border, do they make him and his wife enter separately, using separate forms?

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-09-18 11:02pm

Darth Wong wrote:I would like to know if there is a specific section of the code which explicitly instructs Customs agents to force gay married couples from another country to enter as separate individuals.

Quite frankly, I find it highly doubtful that the regs are clear about what should be done in this case, and I strongly suspect that the Customs officer in question took some "initiative" in deciding to interpret the regs in the manner which would cause the most possible inconvenience for this couple.

I see it as a rather simple case:
1) The US does not recognize gay marriages.
2) if you aren't married and aren't related by blood then you aren't a legal family.
3) if you aren't a family you can't file for entrance as one.

Sure the guy might have fudged it but then he would be in the wrong technically (if not morally because I disagree with the position in general). I personally say don't blame the guy for following the letter of his regs even if you believe their spirit would be a better guide.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-18 11:03pm

Just curious: if a polygamist from a Muslim country shows up at the border, do they make him and his wife enter separately, using separate forms?

He could enter as a married man, but he would only be able to do so with the wife of his choosing.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-18 11:04pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Dalton wrote: Yeah, I mean, the US should have the ability to suppress equal rights when they conflict with the "superior" Christian morality this country runs by, right?
So you want the customs officials to ignore the law and simply make all the decisions on the fly? Yeah I'm sure that will work real great. Let adapt it for the legal system as well. We dont need that pesky bill of rights getting in the way of the truth.

You're quite fond of strawmen, aren't you?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-18 11:05pm

Durran Korr wrote:
Just curious: if a polygamist from a Muslim country shows up at the border, do they make him and his wife enter separately, using separate forms?
He could enter as a married man, but he would only be able to do so with the wife of his choosing.

So it's possible to enter as a married couple from a marriage which would be illegal under US law, as long as you're not gay?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-18 11:06pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:I personally say don't blame the guy for following the letter of his regs even if you believe their spirit would be a better guide.

You have yet to establish that the letter of his regs involves forcing married couples to enter separately if their marriage is not recognized by the US. Everyone is simply assuming this; is there any more information on this subject?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-18 11:09pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:
Just curious: if a polygamist from a Muslim country shows up at the border, do they make him and his wife enter separately, using separate forms?
He could enter as a married man, but he would only be able to do so with the wife of his choosing.
So it's possible to enter as a married couple from a marriage which would be illegal under US law, as long as you're not gay?

Customs policy is not my forte, as I'm sure you can imagine, but yeah, I would assume so, since it would be a heterosexual marriage and he wouldn't be trying to enter America as a polygamist. But unfortunately, we don't recognize homosexual marriages.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-09-18 11:12pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Dalton wrote: Yeah, I mean, the US should have the ability to suppress equal rights when they conflict with the "superior" Christian morality this country runs by, right?

So you want the customs officials to ignore the law and simply make all the decisions on the fly? Yeah I'm sure that will work real great. Let adapt it for the legal system as well. We dont need that pesky bill of rights getting in the way of the truth.

Well Shrubby has alread done that Sea Skimmer

But that is beside the bloody point. How can spiting in their face be justified?