Vietnam War: Good or Bad?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-09-18 11:48pm

Alot of people would agree that the Vietnam War was a really shitty idea, as far as military ideas go. But the Vietnam War spawned a lot of protests and movements, free love, spirituality, drugs, free speech.. Alot of GOOD social changes came about because of the Vietnam War.

So, does Good outway the Bad?

Personally I think they were. We were forced to deal with a lack of freedoms (speech, sexual, etc) and while it cost some good men their lives, so did the Revolution. As the man said, Liberty of Death.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-09-18 11:53pm

The only good I see the Vietnam War having caused is a socially unrestful environment that allowed for people like the Beatles, Bob Dylan, etc to come out.

There was a saying that went something like, "Italy has had centuries of wars, social unrest, and it has created Leonardo Da Vinci, Michaelengelo, etc. America, on the other hand, has experienced relatively continuous peace and has invented <something, I think it was some hotdog stand or something>"

You get the point.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-18 11:56pm

We half-assed it, totally, but we did contain communist expansion. It was worth it.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-18 11:57pm

The Veitnam war was overall a bad idea, but there really was no escaping another major war in South East Asia, if not in Vietnam then in Thailand.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-09-18 11:59pm

The Vietnam war was an unavoidable bad for the most part. Regardless of what would happen we would get involved some way or another. Even those who praise the need for the war can't deny that in general war itself is bad. Did we get good things out of this? Yes we did. Was it enough to make the general event and subsiquent changes in America to be considered good? That is up to interpretation.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-09-19 12:06am

Durran Korr wrote:We half-assed it, totally, but we did contain communist expansion. It was worth it.

South Vietnam was overrun by North Vietnam.

How exactly did we contain communism?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-19 12:08am

Shinova wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:We half-assed it, totally, but we did contain communist expansion. It was worth it.
South Vietnam was overrun by North Vietnam.

How exactly did we contain communism?

By keeping it there.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-19 12:10am

I suppose it's worth pointing out that the most pro-American Canadian I know happens to be a Vietnamese immigrant who hated the communists.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that an awful lot of people died and/or suffered horribly on both sides, and it's pretty hard to look at something like that and give a thumbs-up.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-09-19 12:14am

Like I said, everyone pretty much agrees that the war was a military fuckup, but the results HERE in the US (and Canada?) were pretty good. The war forced us to take back our freedom of speech, etc. It made us rethink who were were as a nation.

Were THOSE benefits worth the death and suffering the war caused, or would it be better to not have those freedoms today but not have killed all those people?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-19 12:16am

The war forced us to take back our freedom of speech, etc.

I was unaware it had been taken away at some point.

Were THOSE benefits worth the death and suffering the war caused, or would it be better to not have those freedoms today but not have killed all those people?

What freedoms?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-09-19 12:20am

Durran Korr wrote:I was unaware it had been taken away at some point.

Go back to 1965 and see how much you would be allowed to protest the war. Especially in public universities, etc. The Vietnam War brought about social change that gave us the relatively friendly society we have today.

What freedoms?

^

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-19 12:24am

You can't label something like a war as being either black or white.

We only got involved because we didn't want the comunists to gain any more political and territorial power. We never should have gotten involved in the first place.

All the homeland shit that Kojikun thinks was importent for some reason would have occurred anyway as they were parts of the already existing counterculture movement, which was more a responce to the widespread conservative attitude of the postwar 40s and 50s.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-19 12:25am

Go back to 1965 and see how much you would be allowed to protest the war. Especially in public universities, etc.

I have neither a time machine nor the burden of proof.

Especially in public universities, etc. The Vietnam War brought about social change that gave us the relatively friendly society we have today.

*raises eyebrow*

One thing I don't think you can say about the Vietnam War is that it made America a more friendly place.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-19 12:29am

Shinova wrote:
South Vietnam was overrun by North Vietnam.

How exactly did we contain communism?

It didn't spread further, which was the real point. If the US had let the south fall in 1965/66, which was as far as it would ever get on its own then you can be sure that Vietnam would move on to help the struggling communists in Thailand. Historically Thailand was able to defeat its insurgency and beat off Vietnams one probing invasion attempt in 1980. But if that attack ca a decade earlier because America didn't prop up the south for years, then it would have led to a very major war. Bingo America is involved in a war in South East Asia.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-19 12:29am

Regarding American societal changes due to Vietnam:

The civil rights movement and the general liberal inclination of the young generation at the time was arguably unrelated to Vietnam in any way.

However, Vietnam did have the effect of putting a damper on American international military activism, by forcing American politicians to approach such matters in a much more cautious manner. This is arguably the reason for their long-term preference for proxy wars.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-09-19 12:32am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:All the homeland shit that Kojikun thinks was importent for some reason would have occurred anyway as they were parts of the already existing counterculture movement, which was more a responce to the widespread conservative attitude of the postwar 40s and 50s.

Oh I don't doubt that they would have happened eventually, but was the extra decade or two worth the wars costs, or should we not have gone to war, save some lives, and the nation might be more conservative even today? Are the social freedoms won during the 60s worth the lives that it took to spark this little revolution when it did and as largely as it did?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-19 12:35am

Don't you throw your ill informed gobbledy-gook at me...

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-19 12:36am

Oh I don't doubt that they would have happened eventually, but was the extra decade or two worth the wars costs, or should we not have gone to war, save some lives, and the nation might be more conservative even today? Are the social freedoms won during the 60s worth the lives that it took to spark this little revolution when it did and as largely as it did?

The social liberalism of the 60s and the civil rights movement predated Vietnam. The Civil Rights movement in particular would have happened with or without Vietnam.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-09-19 12:39am

Durran Korr wrote:The social liberalism of the 60s and the civil rights movement predated Vietnam. The Civil Rights movement in particular would have happened with or without Vietnam.

Yes, it would have, but it would not have been as soon and as large as it was. Without the Vietnam War it might have ended up be large numbers of protests in the mid 70s instead of rioting in the mid 60s. Thats the question dude, was the earlier, larger movement worth the deaths.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-19 12:41am

Koji, what the hell did Vietnam have anything to do with the civil rights movement?

Nothing, that's what.

Jesus, did you use history class for napping or something?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-19 12:46am

Yes, it would have, but it would not have been as soon and as large as it was. Without the Vietnam War it might have ended up be large numbers of protests in the mid 70s instead of rioting in the mid 60s. Thats the question dude, was the earlier, larger movement worth the deaths.

Well, Brown v. Board of Education, arguably the catalyst for the Civil Rights movement, was a decision made in 1954, a time when Eisenhower had barely begun to send financial aid and advisors to Vietnam, the Civil Rights Act was legislated in 1963, before the Gulf of Tonkin incident, so no, you have no argument. The Civil Rights movement was in full swing with no sign of slowing down before the war really started. Furthermore, the burden of proof lies squarely on your shoulders; prove that the social liberalism which accompanied the civil rights movement would not have occured without the Vietnam War, or withdraw your criticism.

As for the war being worth it? No, not on that basis alone, unless you can prove that a slightly more conservative America would have caused nearly 60,000 American deaths and thousands of Vietnamese deaths.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-19 12:50am

Durran Korr wrote: Well, Brown v. Board of Education, arguably the catalyst for the Civil Rights movement, was a decision made in 1954, a time when Eisenhower had barely begun to send financial aid and advisors to Vietnam

Actually the US had been financing most of the French war effort for several years at that point.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-09-19 12:58am

Durran Korr wrote:
Oh I don't doubt that they would have happened eventually, but was the extra decade or two worth the wars costs, or should we not have gone to war, save some lives, and the nation might be more conservative even today? Are the social freedoms won during the 60s worth the lives that it took to spark this little revolution when it did and as largely as it did?
The social liberalism of the 60s and the civil rights movement predated Vietnam. The Civil Rights movement in particular would have happened with or without Vietnam.

A lot of people, especially those under the age of 40, dont understand how much the climate of the 1950's lead to many of the movements in the 60's. I remember as a kid, hating hippies. Then I saw some movie that showed how oppresive the 50's could be and my dad said "See, now you know why we had long hair."

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-09-19 01:04am

TrailerParkJawa wrote:
A lot of people, especially those under the age of 40, dont understand how much the climate of the 1950's lead to many of the movements in the 60's. I remember as a kid, hating hippies. Then I saw some movie that showed how oppresive the 50's could be and my dad said "See, now you know why we had long hair."

Which Movie?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-19 01:05am

If he knew the name, then he probably would have said the title rather than say "some movie".