two quick questions on shielding

[pellaeons_scion]

True or false
Can any damage at all be done to a SW ship whilst the shields are holding?
And do succesive energy charges gradually degrade the amount a shield can hold against, or does it need to be overwhelmed in a short instant to lessen its defensive capability

[Chardok]

"She'll Hold together"
*BOOM*
"Easy baby, hold together"
::cut to R-2 fire extinguishing some wires and stuff::
I think the answer is yes, damage can be sustained while shields are up.
And the MF took quite a few hits to the deflector shields in ANH before jumping to Hyperspace, so your question of alot of damage in a short time, I think is answered there....I think a sustained bombardment will deplete the shield strength...or perhaps the intensity of the shield and the amount of damage it absorbs as it depletes...hmm....

Mike has a GREAT commentary on shields...which may answer your questions, though most of the essays escape me, I'd have to re read it...
Cliky on technology, shields...(Link placed so you don't have to type addy in )

[Kuja]

True or false
Can any damage at all be done to a SW ship whilst the shields are holding?

Yes. Small portions of the shield can overload and fall briefly, allowing a torp or two to skip in. No substantial damage can be done this way, though.

And do succesive energy charges gradually degrade the amount a shield can hold against, or does it need to be overwhelmed in a short instant to lessen its defensive capability

It depends on how quickly the charges hit. If volleys are striking more quickly than the shields can regenerate, yes, they will slowly wear dow nand fall.

[pellaeons_scion]

Im still confused. I read the page Chardok, and Im still in a state of puzzlement. Perhaps damage can be done whilst the shields remain, but only to exposed systems (weapon emplacements etc). But even that doesnt quite hold, as like you said in TESB the Falcon was being shot, and even though the shields held, damage was being caused internally, even if it wasnt major.

And Kuja. The method your describing sounds like the shields are like a patchwork system, ie, its possible for one smaller component with less resistance to fail, opening a small hole, whilst the rest of the shields hold.

If thats the case, I wonder how quickly a capship can retarget that particular weakness and exploit it. I would think that the window of opportunity would be very small to do this, dependant on the ships ability to replenish that shield segement.

Just as an offside, maybe thats why SW ships have so many guns...blanket your target hoping to creature a shield fracture and maybe cause minor damage to exposed systems, then, once the fracture is pinpointed, then the ship can retarget and concentrate its fire on that area, ripping the target apart....

just my thoughts, but Im no genius. Just genuinely interested in these areas

Edit: I dont know. Im still confused, but I dont want to cause shit about it, as I know there are all kinds of theories on it. thanks anyway

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Im still confused. I read the page Chardok, and Im still in a state of puzzlement. Perhaps damage can be done whilst the shields remain, but only to exposed systems (weapon emplacements etc). But even that doesnt quite hold, as like you said in TESB the Falcon was being shot, and even though the shields held, damage was being caused internally, even if it wasnt major.

It may just be energy that the shield generators couldn't handle surging back into the ship and damaging other systems.

[Alyeska]

SW shields can be affected multiple ways depending on how the enemy hits them. If the enemy can hit the shields with enough power to blast through in a short period of time, the shields will crumble and the ship underneat will take damage. At this point shields are usualy knocked out, at least temporarily. If the enemy doesn't quite have enough power to knock out the shields in one salvo, they need to spend considerably more power to compensate for the quick recharge rates of the shields. Last of all if the enemy has near enough power to knock out the shields in a short period of time, the shields can become over taxed and openings will be created. This might be a defensive measure by the computer to prevent total shield failure and thereby continue protecting the ship. Basicaly holes are created at this level of firepower allowing some enemy fire through. IIRC the smaller the ship the greater a chance there is of bleed through damage by equal level enemy fire. Larger ships have better absolute coverage.

[Darth Wong]

It's also possible to cause severe physical shock even if you don't penetrate the shield (see the Falcon being knocked around in TESB), with the attendant likelihood of equipment wear and damage. But that would only apply for high-momentum impacts.

[Alyeska]

That would be less of a problem on larger ships because they are much less vulnerable to such shocks and have better absorbtion systems. Would also explain why the smaller ships tend to have more cases of bleed through.

[Kuja]

And Kuja. The method your describing sounds like the shields are like a patchwork system, ie, its possible for one smaller component with less resistance to fail, opening a small hole, whilst the rest of the shields hold.

It's been seen multiple times. Take the fight between the Invidious, an ISD, and the Harmzuay, a frigate. Although the Harmzuay's initial barrage was small and unfocused, a couple of shots managed to get through the ISDs shield and "boil off hull armor" but they did little more than cosmetic damage. The Invidious' return barrage took the frigate's topside and forward shields down almost instantly and did massive damage to the ship's hull. When the Harmzuay attempted to flee, the Invidious fired off another barrage that blew through the frigate's remaining shields and slagged the hull.

If thats the case, I wonder how quickly a capship can retarget that particular weakness and exploit it. I would think that the window of opportunity would be very small to do this, dependant on the ships ability to replenish that shield segement.

As noted above, the Invidious' shield holes closed too quickly for the Harmzuay's gunners to exploit them.

Just as an offside, maybe thats why SW ships have so many guns...blanket your target hoping to creature a shield fracture and maybe cause minor damage to exposed systems, then, once the fracture is pinpointed, then the ship can retarget and concentrate its fire on that area, ripping the target apart....

Well, that's the basic rule of survival in SW capship combat: establish an advantageous position and pound away. Again, I refer you to the above example, where the Invidious' gunners worked as a team to slag the belly of the Harmzuay and take out its engines very quickly.

just my thoughts, but Im no genius. Just genuinely interested in these areas

Edit: I dont know. Im still confused, but I dont want to cause shit about it, as I know there are all kinds of theories on it. thanks anyway

Hey, asking questions is the best way to learn. And when the questions are as intelligent as yours, there's plenty of folks here that'll be willingto help you out.

[Isolder74]

Also Star Wars ships can "angle" their Deflectors to provide better coverage against a single enemy. Multiple Weapons arrays also minimise the advantage this tactic can provide as they can now hit the ship in more than one place.

Edit: angling the Deflectors will also decrease the sheild strength in other areas of the ship at the expense of the extra protection. This makes it a bad tactic to use against enemy starfighter attacks.

[Kuja]

Also Star Wars ships can "angle" their Deflectors to provide better coverage against a single enemy. Multiple Weapons arrays also minimise the advantage this tactic can provide as they can now hit the ship in more than one place.

Adding to Isolder's statement: this is why fighter/bombers are best utilized in forcing a capship to keep its shields "honest" (spread out).

[Isolder74]

Also Star Wars ships can "angle" their Deflectors to provide better coverage against a single enemy. Multiple Weapons arrays also minimise the advantage this tactic can provide as they can now hit the ship in more than one place.

Adding to Isolder's statement: this is why fighter/bombers are best utilized in forcing a capship to keep its shields "honest" (spread out).

Thought of that just as I hit submit and you beat me to the punch

[Isolder74]

Note that in TESB when Needa assumed that Han would not attack him he did not have his shields up. He ordered his shields up too late for Han had gotten close enough to be under the shields which allowed him to grab onto the hull. Needa's mistakes allowed Han to pull off his dissapearing act. It appears that Han figured the Star Destroyer would not have the shields up. It may have some part of Imperial procedure.

[Stark]

With regards to the Falcons escape from the Death Star, could the fires be shield systems overloading/overheating etc? Han would also be concerned about the stress the simulaneous bombardment put on the shield mountings ('hold together'), as we have seen starfigther weapons can kick the target around (although TIE-scale weapons don't seem to do this). I suggest that until the shields fall, however briefly, only the shield system or its mounts can be damaged.

[Kuja]

Note that in TESB when Needa assumed that Han would not attack him he did not have his shields up. He ordered his shields up too late for Han had gotten close enough to be under the shields which allowed him to grab onto the hull. Needa's mistakes allowed Han to pull off his dissapearing act. It appears that Han figured the Star Destroyer would not have the shields up. It may have some part of Imperial procedure.

No doubt Needa was about to order a tractor beam and yank the Falcon into the hangar when Han pulled his little stunt, that would explain the particle shields being down.

With regards to the Falcons escape from the Death Star, could the fires be shield systems overloading/overheating etc? Han would also be concerned about the stress the simulaneous bombardment put on the shield mountings ('hold together'), as we have seen starfigther weapons can kick the target around (although TIE-scale weapons don't seem to do this). I suggest that until the shields fall, however briefly, only the shield system or its mounts can be damaged.

You are building on a foundation that isn't sound. Remember that the TIEs were giving the Falcon pretty rough treatment, and at least a few of the bolts were undoubtedly getting through to the hull. And since the shields didn't drop completely when the circuits caught fire, the two are not necessarily related.

[Isolder74]

Note that in TESB when Needa assumed that Han would not attack him he did not have his shields up. He ordered his shields up too late for Han had gotten close enough to be under the shields which allowed him to grab onto the hull. Needa's mistakes allowed Han to pull off his dissapearing act. It appears that Han figured the Star Destroyer would not have the shields up. It may have some part of Imperial procedure.

No doubt Needa was about to order a tractor beam and yank the Falcon into the hangar when Han pulled his little stunt, that would explain the particle shields being down.

This is kind of what I was hinting at by "Imperial Procedure" the reason Needa had his shields down are never specified so it left up to speculation.

[Stark]

With regards to the Falcons escape from the Death Star, could the fires be shield systems overloading/overheating etc? Han would also be concerned about the stress the simulaneous bombardment put on the shield mountings ('hold together'), as we have seen starfigther weapons can kick the target around (although TIE-scale weapons don't seem to do this). I suggest that until the shields fall, however briefly, only the shield system or its mounts can be damaged.

You are building on a foundation that isn't sound. Remember that the TIEs were giving the Falcon pretty rough treatment, and at least a few of the bolts were undoubtedly getting through to the hull. And since the shields didn't drop completely when the circuits caught fire, the two are not necessarily related.

I'm attempting to rationalise the attack on the Falcon with the visible damage inflicted on Kenobi's starfighter... his shields were (apparently) still up. The interior fire seems an odd result of direct hull hits from starfighter weapons, I felt that some kind of internal system failure caused by the near-collapse of shielding made more sense. IIRC, the Falcon has rarely taken confirmed hull hits... even when fleeing into the Hoth field, the asteroids still struck shield and not hull.

[Kuja]

I'm attempting to rationalise the attack on the Falcon with the visible damage inflicted on Kenobi's starfighter... his shields were (apparently) still up. The interior fire seems an odd result of direct hull hits from starfighter weapons, I felt that some kind of internal system failure caused by the near-collapse of shielding made more sense. IIRC, the Falcon has rarely taken confirmed hull hits... even when fleeing into the Hoth field, the asteroids still struck shield and not hull.

Please restate that without vacillating between two different battles. You lost me.

[Isolder74]

Well when the Falcon took the damage the light did flicker slightly. As if implying the shields were overtaxing the ship's powerplant with the weapons system also active. Power surges from overloading the reactor could explain the fires ect ecpecially with all of Han's non-standard modifications.

[Stark]

I'm attempting to rationalise the attack on the Falcon with the visible damage inflicted on Kenobi's starfighter... his shields were (apparently) still up. The interior fire seems an odd result of direct hull hits from starfighter weapons, I felt that some kind of internal system failure caused by the near-collapse of shielding made more sense. IIRC, the Falcon has rarely taken confirmed hull hits... even when fleeing into the Hoth field, the asteroids still struck shield and not hull.

Please restate that without vacillating between two different battles. You lost me.

Certainly. In the Falcons escape from the Death Star, it takes many concentrated hits from TIEs, which fired in concert, in slashing attacks using sustained fire. Bear in mind that in AOTC quick burst penetrated Kenobis shields and punched craters in it, disabling internal systems like the comm relay, whereas no such failures were seen on the Falcon. Also, after being carefully battered during the escape from Hoth, asteroids strikes demonstrate that the shields were still up, even forward.
So I'm suggesting that until a shield fails, only the internal shield systems, such as cooling systems, power systems and mounts are susceptible to damage, and that this is the kind of damage we most often see aboard the Falcon.
The tactics used by the TIEs during the DS escape are intended to keep a sustained load on the shields, to cause just this kind of internal failures. As Alyeska suggested, unless you can overload a shield with raw power, SW ships seem to resort to constant bombardment.
I hope thats clearer - I use AOTC to establish the kind of damage we can expect when shields fail.

[Howedar]

Note that in TESB when Needa assumed that Han would not attack him he did not have his shields up. He ordered his shields up too late for Han had gotten close enough to be under the shields which allowed him to grab onto the hull. Needa's mistakes allowed Han to pull off his dissapearing act. It appears that Han figured the Star Destroyer would not have the shields up. It may have some part of Imperial procedure.

All we know suggests hull-hugging shields, or nearly so. Needa ordered shields up when the Falcon was at least hundreds of meters away. Your explaination does not hold water.

[MarkIX]

All we know suggests hull-hugging shields, or nearly so. Needa ordered shields up when the Falcon was at least hundreds of meters away. Your explaination does not hold water.

200 metres at what speed? the what was the shield tech doing, how long did it take him to react. Its been an awfully long time since I have seen that movie but if memory serves me the scene was very short, an overconfident crew can hesitate.

[Ender]

Im still confused. I read the page Chardok, and Im still in a state of puzzlement. Perhaps damage can be done whilst the shields remain, but only to exposed systems (weapon emplacements etc). But even that doesnt quite hold, as like you said in TESB the Falcon was being shot, and even though the shields held, damage was being caused internally, even if it wasnt major.

Low power shots don't get through the shields, but do cause heat spikes. This can do damage. Also, momentum imparted by larger blasts can put alot of stress on internal components.

And Kuja. The method your describing sounds like the shields are like a patchwork system, ie, its possible for one smaller component with less resistance to fail, opening a small hole, whilst the rest of the shields hold.

Yes.

If thats the case, I wonder how quickly a capship can retarget that particular weakness and exploit it. I would think that the window of opportunity would be very small to do this, dependant on the ships ability to replenish that shield segement.

If a small emitter is knocked off line, the emitters next to it would expand to cover the gap. this leaves the overall shield weaker though, as shield strength lessens the further it gets from the emitter.

[Lord Poe]

Note that in TESB when Needa assumed that Han would not attack him he did not have his shields up.

From what was seen, it looks like only the bridge shields were put up in order for the Falcon to latch onto the Avenger in a second or two.

[Darwin]

Also from some shield examples (the Tantive IV) Shields may not completely stop a shot, even when up. They deflect some of the shot, absorb some of the shot, and what's left tends to get fragmented as it penetrates. these fragments could still cause damage as they impact the hull.(as they did to the Tantive IV)