Vietnam War: Good or Bad?

[TrailerParkJawa]

A lot of people, especially those under the age of 40, dont understand how much the climate of the 1950's lead to many of the movements in the 60's. I remember as a kid, hating hippies. Then I saw some movie that showed how oppresive the 50's could be and my dad said "See, now you know why we had long hair."

Which Movie?

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You know, I wanna say "Little Shop of Horrors" but I could be wrong. I just remember something about everyone dressing the same, or being under pressure to conform a certain way. I remember the revelation but not the movie. This was some time in the mid 80's so forgive the memory.

However, it is not hard to look at the 1950's and see how it was a very, white, christian, world. No room for being different.

[kojikun]

I won't deny that the 50s were the beginning of the civil rights movement, but there was little in the way of large scale things like the free speech movement, etc. Integration was a beginning, but it didn't start the entire thing.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I won't deny that the 50s were the beginning of the civil rights movement, but there was little in the way of large scale things like the free speech movement, etc. Integration was a beginning, but it didn't start the entire thing.

I think you are missing my point. The 50's was a such a repressive time that it lead the rebellious 60's.

[kojikun]

I think you are missing my point. The 50's was a such a repressive time that it lead the rebellious 60's.

Yes, this is true, very true, but its not likely that the social changes that came about would have occured WHEN THEY DID if it werent for the Vietnam War and the conflict that created. The war provided more to fight over in the Civil Rights Movement, more then just segregation.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

How, oh confused one?

[RedImperator]

I think you are missing my point. The 50's was a such a repressive time that it lead the rebellious 60's.

Yes, this is true, very true, but its not likely that the social changes that came about would have occured WHEN THEY DID if it werent for the Vietnam War and the conflict that created. The war provided more to fight over in the Civil Rights Movement, more then just segregation.

What? Koji, what the fuck are you talking about? Opposition to the war in Vietnam never had a damned thing to do with the civil rights movement, except that a number of people aready involved in the latter got involved in the former. The biggest legal battles of the civil rights movement were won years before American intervention was ramped up in Vietnam. The Vietnam era civil rights movement was characterized by Dr. King's followers arguing with revolutionaries and black nationalists (an unmitigated disaster for the cause of racial equality, but I digress).

Vietnam provided a rallying point for the counterculture that grew out of rebellion to the stiff conformist future promised by the fifties, but it didn't create the countrculture and it didn't cause any miraculous breakthroughs in the rights of the people. Hell, it wasn't really even that important overall--most people in the 60s and 70s thought the counterculturarlists were at best misguided kids on a lark and at worst traitors, and even most of the "radicals" ended up getting jobs and raising a family in the suburbs. The civil rights movement of the late fifties and early sixties was far more important in changing American attitudes. Vietnam was just a clusterfuck that killed tens of thousands of Americans and millions of Vietnamese. We should have told the French where to get off in 1946 instead of supporting their effort to get their colony back ("Hey, that's what you get for coddling Hitler. Now go eat some frog legs or something.")

[kojikun]

How, oh confused one?

One of the main things I've been talking about is the Free Speech Movement. I doubt you think of it as a social revolution, but it really was, because it affected pretty much every person in the US whos gone to public universities and even private universities. The events at Berkeley in 1964 were major, atleast for university students, because when it was finally concluded, it meant you were guaranteed First Amendment rights during a hugely important part of your life. Without the FSM, public universities would still be able to ban things like public debates and protests. You may not live your entire life in university, but that doesn't change anything. And the reason the FSM came about is because campus officials ended up benning protests of the Vietnam War.

The counter-culture movement was another huge thing that, while it would have continued growing, would not have had the same growth as it did. The large backlash towards people in the counter culture movement, especially because they were against the war, forced society as a whole to deal with the issues that were being used against them. Sex, drugs, rock and roll; all were targeted as causes of 'dissent', and the attacks on those things forced people to rethink their views of society and culture alot sooner then then they would have. Elvis and his swivel-hips and Alabama desegregation may have started the rebelliousness, but backlash against the counter-culture's trouble-making pushed even more important issues into the publics consciousness.

[Hamel]

Is it bad for a man to have long hair?

[kojikun]

What? Koji, what the fuck are you talking about? Opposition to the war in Vietnam never had a damned thing to do with the civil rights movement, except that a number of people aready involved in the latter got involved in the former. The biggest legal battles of the civil rights movement were won years before American intervention was ramped up in Vietnam. The Vietnam era civil rights movement was characterized by Dr. King's followers arguing with revolutionaries and black nationalists (an unmitigated disaster for the cause of racial equality, but I digress).

I was hesistant to even begin on the civil rights thing, but Mike brought up the CVM in relation to my arguement so I was flowing with his interpretation of the CVM.

Vietnam provided a rallying point for the counterculture that grew out of rebellion to the stiff conformist future promised by the fifties, but it didn't create the countrculture and it didn't cause any miraculous breakthroughs in the rights of the people.

I never said it was the sole origin for these things, but like you said, it provided a rallying point, which pushed alot of the counterculture issues into public consciousness. No, there were no miraculous breakthroughs in the rights of people, but there were SOME breakthroughs, as well as alot of breakthroughs in the culture of the nation.

Hell, it wasn't really even that important overall--most people in the 60s and 70s thought the counterculturarlists were at best misguided kids on a lark and at worst traitors, and even most of the "radicals" ended up getting jobs and raising a family in the suburbs.

And here we are today with a society entirely different then that of the 60s and 70s BECAUSE of the counterculture movement, BECAUSE of the antiestablishmentarian [...] activism.

The civil rights movement of the lat fifties and early sixties was far more important in changing American attitudes.

Towards segregation. But MLK had nothing to do with acceptance of free speech, sexuality, non-christian anything.. That was all counterculture, which was pushed-on by the Vietnam War.

Vietnam was just a clusterfuck that killed tens of thousands of Americans and millions of Vietnamese. We should have told the French where to get off in 1946 instead of supporting their effort to get their colony back ("Hey, that's what you get for coddling Hitler. Now go eat some frog legs or something.")

Perhaps, but as you said, it provided a rallying point for the counterculture to make its opinions known about the state of society at the time. What I'm asking is, would not having that rallying point have been better or worse? Would society have had to deal with the social conflicts that were driven by the Vietnam War and its own conflict with the counterculture movement?

[RedImperator]

You're overestimating the counterculture. They were defeated on most of their issues (as you might have noticed the last time you picked up the Wall Street Journal). The important work was done by the civil rights movement--the only really important movements after 1965 were woman's lib and gay rights, both of which would have come without the war, and indeed might have come easier without activists in those causes being lumped with the Marxist loonies and radicals of the antiwar movement.

The free speech movement itself was about civil rights, not Vietnam. Later those same people would be involved in prostesting the war, but in 1964, most of them couldn't have found Vietnam on a map.

[kojikun]

You're overestimating the counterculture. They were defeated on most of their issues (as you might have noticed the last time you picked up the Wall Street Journal). The important work was done by the civil rights movement--the only really important movements after 1965 were woman's lib and gay rights, both of which would have come without the war, and indeed might have come easier without activists in those causes being lumped with the Marxist loonies and radicals of the antiwar movement.

Thank gods atleast someone actually has an opinion on topic. You might be right, being lumped with Marxists and nutjobs might have contributed to time taken to get those things done.

The free speech movement itself was about civil rights, not Vietnam. Later those same people would be involved in prostesting the war, but in 1964, most of them couldn't have found Vietnam on a map.

Actually, alot of the FSM was BECAUSE of protesting the war. Berkeley administration shut down protests at Sproul Plaza because of the political nature.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Is it bad for a man to have long hair?

Today? Or back then?

Long hair is not bad per se. In certain industries it is unprofessional, but overall long hair is not bad. What I never understood was the conservative, frothing at the mouth, hair must be short on men crowd. After all, Jesus did'nt have a crew cut.