Homeworld 2 Story Badness

[Connor MacLeod]

HW1's multibeams rocked, but I swear those helmsmen were drunk. They'd outright miss or hit friendlies all the damn time - it's a good thing those ion beams were not the full-powered ones you use as a spinal mount for the ICF.

I grouped them off by their own and used them only on big ships.

[phongn]

The DFF works against other things in HW2, though I haven't tested it in combat yet.

I'll run a test, but even if they did tweak it in HW2, it's still not an all-powerful energy shield like the Sentinel's was, and it certainly doesn't alter the fact that basic operating principles of the defense field and the sentinel shield are about as similar as faster-than light lasers and machineguns.

Actually, they're ion beams, which presumably could be defected with electromagnetic fields, much like ferrous mass driver rounds But I know what point you're trying to bring across.

There's a difference: we all live on the same planet. We have a shared experience and history. Also, our languages are different: from what I've read in the Homeworld Manuals, "Sajuuk Cor" is a Hiigaran (exile) phrase, not an Imperial one.

Sajuuk might be a common phrase, no? Gah, you need to finish up HW2 first

Let's also not forget that the exiles spend what, one or two thousand years by themselves? Time enough to forget the language of their ancestors that landed on the planet.

And yet some words endure, like "Hiigara." Clearly, while the language has evolved it has identifiable roots.

[phongn]

HW1's multibeams rocked, but I swear those helmsmen were drunk. They'd outright miss or hit friendlies all the damn time - it's a good thing those ion beams were not the full-powered ones you use as a spinal mount for the ICF.

I grouped them off by their own and used them only on big ships.

So did I, but they'd shoot each other,w eakening them while they were already being pounded.

[Hotfoot]

This is the important point. HW:C had a pretty crazy story when it came to continuity, but it was so far removed both topically and narratively that it wasn't as significant.

Yes, but as a result it doesn't deserve the praise some people here are giving it, saying it was a true sequal which logically followed from the original Homeworld.

HW2 attempts to extend the original story of the Hiigaran exiles, and so is more easily critisized with regards to the overall story.

True, and in spirit, it fails as a sequel to the original. However, in fact, it still follows logically from where HW1 left off (well, for the most part, anyway).

So far I think that the biggest problem for most people is that while Cataclysm did not seem to alter too much retroactively (aside from the true exiles thing, which I will grant was left unanswered by the original Relic team, and thus not set in stone), HW2 retroactively seems to contradict HW1 (which, as I've shown above, really isn't as serious as some people think). The biggest departure is the whole mystical magical core thing, which while not really contradicting anything in HW1, definately goes against the grain compared to how it was portrayed in HW1. In HW1, it was just treated as their FTL tech, nothing more. Now it's something super-special, with no real explanation given. It might be explained in more clarity in the fluff they have yet to release, but since it's not there for us to read, we don't know.

Again, we have Sierra to thank for that. Sierra, and Europe.

Thank you, Europe, you've once again ruined something for the rest of us.

[Hotfoot]

Actually, they're ion beams, which presumably could be defected with electromagnetic fields, much like ferrous mass driver rounds But I know what point you're trying to bring across.

Okay...so long as you know what I'm saying, because I just didn't get that last statement at all. You lost me, I'm afraid.

Sajuuk might be a common phrase, no? Gah, you need to finish up HW2 first

Yes, Sajuuk might very well be a common phrase. However, it still doesn't jibe with the whole "these are our names for them, not their own names, bugger off" bit that Barking Dog tried to push on us.

And yet some words endure, like "Hiigara." Clearly, while the language has evolved it has identifiable roots.

This is true, but it doesn't explain why the Imperials would follow the now horribly mutated Exile naming structure so exactly.

[Hotfoot]

HW1's multibeams rocked, but I swear those helmsmen were drunk. They'd outright miss or hit friendlies all the damn time - it's a good thing those ion beams were not the full-powered ones you use as a spinal mount for the ICF.

I grouped them off by their own and used them only on big ships.

So did I, but they'd shoot each other,w eakening them while they were already being pounded.

Wall Formation did wonders for their accuracy and not-shooting-each-other skills.

[phongn]

Gah, Sierra. I remember the old Sierra back when the Williams owned them, before Infogrames and then Vivendi controlled then.

With Barking Dog, it's possible that they discarded some of the old "Taiidan Exile" descriptions since that part was clearly going to be ignored - the Kushan were the exiles, not the Taiidan.

Finally, Formation didn't help, they still shot each other :p

By chance have you finished the game yet?

[Alyeska]

Kadesh Multi-Beams have the weakest Ions in the game. However given the fact that there are 5 of them, these little Frigate outgun Ion Cannon Frigates and Destroyers allike. It isn't untill the Heavy Cruisers that there is something to outgun these little bastards.

Now using them effectively against targets. These ships use a twist and sweep attack against their enemies. They are generaly useless against anything frigate sized or smaller. They are best when used against destroyers or larger and when in wall formation. When you have 16 of these bastards they will tear through even Elite Heavy Cruisers very quickly.

One major thing I noticed in Cataclysm. Ships had much less firepower or much better armor. It took half of forever for ships to batter eachothers armor down. Even groups of Kadesh Multi-Beams would have a hard time getting through.

[phongn]

I'm thinking better armor. Odd, though, but you also couldn't amass the enormous fleets of HW1. Everybody has fond memories of the mighty Salvage Corvette

The first time I saw the Movers in HW2, I almost head a heart attack because I thought they were all Junkyard Dogs.

[Hotfoot]

Gah, Sierra. I remember the old Sierra back when the Williams owned them, before Infogrames and then Vivendi controlled then.

With Barking Dog, it's possible that they discarded some of the old "Taiidan Exile" descriptions since that part was clearly going to be ignored - the Kushan were the exiles, not the Taiidan.

*shrugs* I still think the major motivation was the fact that the Kushan were on the box of HW1 and the fact that the Kushan Mothership was MUCH better looking than the Taiidan VCR.

I always loved the Kushan designs myself. So very, very nice.

Finally, Formation didn't help, they still shot each other :p

Huh....never really had that problem. Weird.

By chance have you finished the game yet?

No, I've been too busy arguing with you!

Seriously though, no, not yet. I'll probably play through the rest tomorrow after I wake up, have a nice, good long run and see how it goes.

[Datana]

Concerning the "core" and "module" issue --
I looked up the HW1 manual for mentions of a hyperspace core, rather than a module (search via the PDF in the "Documents" subdirectory of the Homeworld installation directory). There were only two of these, but they were inconclusive:

Page 7: "During the course of this massive project, 2,357 personnel have given their lives for the future of our people, and their names have been engraved on the central hyperdrive core aboard the Mothership."

Page 9 (Figure 1.8 ): "Although the core of the [hyperspace] device is entirely solid state, the power and control systems that embed it are the most complex devices ever built."

The second quote is the most interesting. This is a clear reference to the hyperspace module, which was previously described (on page 4) as "solid state." The sidebar on page 9 also attributes the Mothership's FTL capability to the module and even talks a bit about the theory behind its function. At no point is any other component said to be necessary. From this, it seems more likely that "core" and "module" are interchangable.

[phongn]

Finish the game and then we can talk about the plot

[SirNitram]

People are still bitching and moaning that the Kushan are the exiles?!

My fucking god. I'm sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine. This whining exasperates me as I utterly can't see the other side of it. Who was on the cover? Who was the race in the demo? Who did Relic state as being the Exiles? All this was before Cata; back in the days when Cata was still only just being mentioned and no one knew anything about it. Two games later, people still whine that the Taiidan are the Imperials?!

Rant over.

[Alyeska]

People are still bitching and moaning that the Kushan are the exiles?!

My fucking god. I'm sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine. This whining exasperates me as I utterly can't see the other side of it. Who was on the cover? Who was the race in the demo? Who did Relic state as being the Exiles? All this was before Cata; back in the days when Cata was still only just being mentioned and no one knew anything about it. Two games later, people still whine that the Taiidan are the Imperials?!

Rant over.

That is more or less how I view it. I was always partial to the Taiidan ships and I played them through HW first. I was a little surprised that they made the Kushan the exiles, but I quickly adapted and learned to love that idea. The Taiidan ships just radiated power and vast resources while the Kushan ships seemed very much like practical but not quite thrown together designs. Very fluid and culture oriented.

[phongn]

I always thought the Kushan ships looked a bit too elegant for a new spacefaring race. The Taiidan ships were generally more utilitarian and sometimes more primitive looking. Yes, style over substance, but it's a thought.

Notice on the Kushan MGC that it has these small turrets while the Taiidan MGC has these enormous barrels sticking out. Same net effect, but one's less elegant than the other.

Of course, I always was of the "Kushan = Exile" crowd, but that 'style' bit threw me off guard.

[SirNitram]

To base things off style alone is to invite many creative rebuttals, of course. The best, I think, was that the Exiles lived on a planet with minimal resources; they've likely become adept at building small, compact, miniaturized things, thus their tiny turrets, and streamlined ships. The Taidanni mothership is an absolute monster, with huge, seemingly extraneous, bits jutting out, a total waste in a society that had to devote it's entire existance to a ship for decades(Of course, those that turn to the manual to validate their 'taidanni r xiles!' cries conveniently gloss over which Mothership was featured on the 'depiction of hte incomplete mothership' illustration.). The Taidanni, holding more space and resources, could devote extra space to all those jutting out bits.

[SirNitram]

To expand slightly on the above, consider the ship designs more carefully. Taidanni vessels are extremely specialized, each fighter, corvette, and frigate being purpose built. The Kushan, however, take one proven design(Interceptor, Heavy Corv, AssFrig) and modify it for each new technology. Look closely at the various things churned out and you'll see it as well. This definately fits a 'research on the run' situation.

[phongn]

True enough, but in the manual we see drawings of mass driver emplacements, which clearly have visible, external barrels - more closely matching the ones seen on the Taiidani ships.

[SirNitram]

True enough, but in the manual we see drawings of mass driver emplacements, which clearly have visible, external barrels - more closely matching the ones seen on the Taiidani ships.

Indeed. The manual is ambiguous, as everyone in this debate knows. That's the whole reason this damn debate exists.

[Spyder]

Indeed. The manual is ambiguous, as everyone in this debate knows. That's the whole reason this damn debate exists.

Fig 1.4 on page 6: Completed Mothership (Kushan)

Fig 1.9 on page 13: Early Scout Prototype developed over Kharak (Tiidani)

Fig 1.11 on page 15: Mass driver looks similar to HW1 Tiidani but bears resemblance to HW2 Kushan.

Fig 1.10 on page 15: Assault Frigate (Kushan)

The only thing solid that I can see which supports Tiidani exiles is that one ship design which was an old prototype that may or may not have seen service. This can be explained by "Well we tried this design and it didn't work out but you can imagine our suprise when we saw what the Empire was using against us!"

As for the mass drivers, given that the Hiigarins have turrets like that in HW2 I'd be tempted to put that more towards limitations of the HW1 engine.

[Alyeska]

To expand slightly on the above, consider the ship designs more carefully. Taidanni vessels are extremely specialized, each fighter, corvette, and frigate being purpose built. The Kushan, however, take one proven design(Interceptor, Heavy Corv, AssFrig) and modify it for each new technology. Look closely at the various things churned out and you'll see it as well. This definately fits a 'research on the run' situation.

Actually its the same for both sides. The same frigate hull is used multiple times as is the destroyer and the corvette bodies.

[Xon]

There's a difference: we all live on the same planet. We have a shared experience and history. Also, our languages are different: from what I've read in the Homeworld Manuals, "Sajuuk Cor" is a Hiigaran (exile) phrase, not an Imperial one.

Sajuuk might be a common phrase, no? Gah, you need to finish up HW2 first

"Sajuuk" is a name

Apparaent its the name of a prominant person/ship/tech of the 1st humans to settle the homeworld galaxy.

So its no real supprise the Kushan arent the only one who knows it.

[Xon]

HW1's multibeams rocked, but I swear those helmsmen were drunk. They'd outright miss or hit friendlies all the damn time - it's a good thing those ion beams were not the full-powered ones you use as a spinal mount for the ICF.

I grouped them off by their own and used them only on big ships.

So did I, but they'd shoot each other,w eakening them while they were already being pounded.

Multibeams in X formation slaughter fighters, corevets, and small cap ships.

That was the key, getting the right formation.

[Xon]

Gah, Sierra. I remember the old Sierra back when the Williams owned them, before Infogrames and then Vivendi controlled then.

With Barking Dog, it's possible that they discarded some of the old "Taiidan Exile" descriptions since that part was clearly going to be ignored - the Kushan were the exiles, not the Taiidan.

Finally, Formation didn't help, they still shot each other :p

By chance have you finished the game yet?

Almost, on mission 13.

Mission 12 was a dozy

[Hotfoot]

People are still bitching and moaning that the Kushan are the exiles?!

My fucking god. I'm sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine. This whining exasperates me as I utterly can't see the other side of it.

Funny, it's a pet peeve of mine for exactly the same reason.

Who was on the cover?

Of the manual? BOTH. The game box doesn't mean jack shit for canon any more than movie posters are used for canon. It's entirely in the hands of the publisher's marketing division, not the developers.

Who was the race in the demo?

So what? They had to pick one. Again, this could have easily been influence by marketing, since the Kushan ships as a whole looked better than the Taiidan ships, specifically the mothership.

Who did Relic state as being the Exiles?

Nobody, and I defy you to provide proof otherwise.