The dangers of live action anime

[The Kernel]

I agree with you Sharp, ADV can't possibly have that kind of money just sitting in their accounts, nor do they have the distribution contacts in American cinema. If the Evangelion movie really has $100,000,000 being spent on it then that means that the US is the primary release area. Big budget movies have to focus on the US since we go to a lot more movies then our Japanese and European counterparts.

In short, there is no way that ADV is doing this alone; it just doesn't add up. My guess would be that there is a major Hollywood studio bankrolling this project that hasn't announced its involvement yet, probably since they still have the option to back out of the project.

As for whether or not an Eva movie, or any live action anime movie, can be good...I'll believe it when I see it. Really, I can't imagine HOW a live action Eva, Ghost in the Shell or even Love Hina could be good. The best animation is always those that take full advantage of the medium as Evangelion does. A live action version would lose those advantages, not to mention that it would have to be a story told in under 2 hrs. Now if you told me they were going to do and Evangelion trilogy, THEN I would be excited.[/i]

[Sharp-kun]

I agree with you Sharp, ADV can't possibly have that kind of money just sitting in their accounts,

If they did, I would be demanding to know why we've waited so long for the Slayer Movies and OAV's, the Nadesico Movie (which isn't great, but I still want it), and the Gekiganger OAV (Utterly brilliant).
If they did have that money, I would rather see it spent on clearing their massive backlog of titles.

[SHODAN]

Hope for the best and fear for the worst is what we all feel on these projects, I think. GitS might even work, Eva.. I remain skeptical.

a live action Love Hina

[greenmm]

Sharp, how do you know that ADV doesn't have or have access to $100 million?

And I want real evidence, not "feelings".

I obviously can't post "real evidence", as I don't have access to ADV's financial records. Lets look at what we know though.

1) They are an anime company. Anime is still a niche thing, sales are going up, but are still small compared to other DVD's.

They're a film company. They may only sell "niche" items, but they sell more than just anime. Just looking on their site, they have available series like:

-- Farscape
-- Andromeda
-- Mutant X
-- Beastmaster

all of which are live-action titles. Heck, they're even the distributors for Pierce Brosnan's Around the World in 80 Days -- not the best movie, to be sure, but definitely a mainstream TV movie.

And even if their primary selections are of anime... have you seen how many pages and different DVD's they have? It may be a niche market, but they're apparantly one of the biggest players in that market, and anime is becoming a larger market every year.

2) ADV license huge amounts of stuff, so much that titles they licensed over 2 years ago have still to be released (Slayers movies and the 2nd OAV for instance). Licenses are not cheap. They've aqquired so much they can't release it all in a decent time. Thats a huge amount they've spent, considering that licenses for such titles as Full Metal Panic got for sums over $100,000.

Other movie studios do the same thing. Remember, they've paid a single sum for the license rights, and get to keep those rights for a number of years. It's more financially sound to snap up a bunch of licenses now, even if you can't release them for a few years, than not buy them and hope there'll be something you can license later on when you're out of material.

Besides... $100 million is the cost of what, 200 licenses? 500? 1000? Are there really that many licenses that ADV is sitting on right now that could have had the money spent on a live-action Evangelion movie?

3) They refused to license End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth, as they were "too expensive".

"Too expensive" can mean they didn't have the cash for the license at that point (whenever that was, considering that EoE was released a year ago, and was probably made available for licensing before then)... or it could mean they didn't feel they'd get enough of a return on EoE to justify licensing it -- which is probably more likely, given that you'd probably have to have seen and enjoyed Evangelion to want to watch a couple of special-made "alternate ending" episodes for it.

4) They've just opened a manga division. Again, not cheap.

Perhaps... but a company tends to open a new division only when it's a) making a big profit, or b) to keep up with its competitors. And even in the case B situation, you can't open a new division if you don't have the spare capital to do so.

If General Motors announced today that they were creating a new brand name to stand alongside their existing brands (Chrysler, Pontiac, etc.), would you assume that it was because they didn't have the cash to continue their other lines, or that they wouldn't even bother making any changes to last year's automobile models? Of course not; you would expect the new brand and division to be created simultaneously with updated models from the old divisions.

5) They're running the Anime Network, which still has a limited viewer base.

Unless that's their primary source of income, that doesn't mean much. Heck, Time Warner may be dropping AOL from its title, and their AOL ISP may be losing customers faster than rats leaving the Titanic, but that doesn't mean their other divisions (i.e. Time Warner Cable, Time magazine) aren't seeing revenue and profit growth, or that they've halted expansion in other areas.

With these expenditures, do you really think their going to risk $100,000,000 on a movie, that has a high chance of failure (even if they could afford it)? They'll have learned from other companies mistakes with things like G-Saviour, and won't risk that much on it.

As I said, its very likely to happen, but I do think some people are being a bit premature.

They may feel that, with anime starting to enter more of the mainstream markets, particularly in the US, that it's not that risky of a venture.

Regardless, though, of what we think, the official notice seems to be that they are starting work on the movie. Does that mean anything? Heck, no; we've been hearing about the next Superman movie for nearly a decade now, with no movie in site; Spider-Man took years before it made it to the theaters; other movie ventures have been talked about that never panned out, either.

I guess, though, we'll have to wait until they make an announcement that they've started making casting calls, or even better started filming, before knowing for sure, though, won't we?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

3) They refused to license End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth, as they were "too expensive".

"Too expensive" can mean they didn't have the cash for the license at that point (whenever that was, considering that EoE was released a year ago, and was probably made available for licensing before then)... or it could mean they didn't feel they'd get enough of a return on EoE to justify licensing it -- which is probably more likely, given that you'd probably have to have seen and enjoyed Evangelion to want to watch a couple of special-made "alternate ending" episodes for it.

Nitpick: D&R and EoE were not merely "alternate ending episodes." They were the actual and official ending for the saga.

[Sharp-kun]

I guess, though, we'll have to wait until they make an announcement that they've started making casting calls, or even better started filming, before knowing for sure, though, won't we?

That has been my basic point.
As I said though, I very much doubt ADV has the money this is meant to be getting just sitting around, if they did, there are far more profitable things they could use it on. It is likely they'll look for someone else to help fund it.

My reference to G-Saviour is that it sucked, not so much the appeal of it. It's something Gundam fans would rather didn't exist.


As for EoE being an alternate ending, I refer you to MDWigs' (who will be familiar to the heavy Eva debators) argument on the endings being concurrent:

http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/mdwigs/endings.html

Its a good read, and puts down what many of us had argued for a while, in a complete and organised form, with a bit extra ^_^

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Bleh, more of the same moronic junk. How typical...

http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq2.html#question24

Q) Are the TV ending and Film ending the same conclusion to the saga?

A) In my view - No.

In the TV ending Shinji chose to stay with Complementation - it isn't even clear that Shinji had a choice at all. He is treated as little more than an example of the process of Complementation - which consisted if breaking down Shinji's link to reality. In the end, Shinji looks at the world of Complementation and smiling happily says "I understand! I can exist here!" He is then congratulated for his decision, by friends living and dead (Kaji), a healthy Touji with his leg still on, and even PenPen. A surreal ending scene to say the least. This ending is similar in context and theme to the ending of George Orwell's book, 1984.

Conversely, the film ends in the opposite manner. Shinji does have a choice and in the last moments of the film utterly rejects Complementation precisely because it eliminates the link to reality, it establishes a false paradise. Complementation is basically a cop-out, and Shinji has matured enough to realize this. The tone at the end of the film isn't a surreal, almost drug-induced, joyful "Congratulations!" for Shinji, but the cold and harsh reality of life.

Further, the Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):
"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face).
A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."
(Translated by Bochan Bird)

Note, "the figure of the Complemented Shinji". Pretty cut and dry.

http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq2.html#question25

Q) Which is the true end to Evangelion? The TV episodes or the films?

A) The End of Evangelion is the official ending to the saga. In the RCB it is stated that EoE was created from the original scripts for eps 25 and then a new script written to continue from that episode, but because of production errors they could not be used. However, this does not mean the TV ending is false, it is simply an alternate conclusion.

End of discussion.

[Sharp-kun]

Bleh, more of the same moronic junk. How typical...

http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq2.html#question24

Much as I respect Brendan's views on this, I consider him to be wrong on this one matter. As he states, it is "his opinion". He runs a great site, but he doesn't get into the knitty gritty of Eva (like the Lance being Adam's S2 etc). Rather than simple blindly following what he says (which he recommends you don't do), actually think about it for yourself, then decide.

Lets look at the ending:

Episodes 25 and 25'

Denying that these 2 are the same is rather difficult. They share the same scenes (Asuka in EVA-02 underwater, Misato dead, Ritsuko in LCL etc), Likewise many lines are the same, compare the scenes in each where Gendo gos to get Rei to start complementation. The dialogue is almost identical. The 2 episodes are the same story, told different ways. This isn't surprising, as Anno had the Ep 25' script prepared when he was forced to write Ep 25.

Episodes 26 and 26'

I won't go into the details here, I recommend you read MDWigs' essay on it, which goes into more depth than I am prepared to. I will cover a few key points though.

1) Shinji "accepting complementation":

SHINJI: ...I see. So this is another possibility. Another possible reality! This current 'myself' is the same way! It's not the true 'myself'! I can be any way I wish to be! I see! And 'myself' who is not an EVA pilot can exist as well!
MISATO: If you take that into consideration, then perhaps the real world isn't that bad. (Sou omoeba, kono genjitsu-sekai mo kesshite warui-monja naiwa)
SHINJI: Still... The real world itself might not be bad, but I could still hate myself. (genjitu-sekai wa, waruku-nai kamo shire-nai, demo jibun wa kiraida)

Shinji realises he can exist in the real world. He doesn't need to be an Eva pilot.

This is followed by:

SHINJI: I... hate myself... but... but, maybe... maybe, I could love myself...! Maybe... My life could have a greater value...! That's right! I'm no more, or less, than myself! I am me! I want to be myself! I want to continue existing in this world! My life is worth living here!!

He realises that he doesn't have to hate himself. He also says he wants to continue to exist. Earlier he said that if he accepted Complementation he would "cease to exist". That alone says something. He's choosing to exist.

Next everyone goes to the congratualtions scene, where he gets congratulated on this. Look who's there: Its Kaji! He was never complemented, he never saw Rei. This scene appears to be some fantasy of Shinji's. He then goes on to say "Thank you mother", mirroring his scene with Yui in Ep 26', after Lilith-Rei's death.

I recommend you read the full Essay by MDWigs, which compares the 2 scripts in detail.

To put it shortly:

Shinji says accepting complementation would be ceasing to exist.
Shinji at the end says he wants to continue to exist.

Rather than simply quoting Brendan, explain why you think they are different.




2) Something to consider. EoE was Anno's original planned ending, as is well known. So why would he choose to have Shinji accept complementation in the TV ending? Why go against his plan and not give Shinji the closure (kind of) he planned? Episodes 25 and 25' are the same, so why would he then suddenly give it the complete opposite of what he planned>



3) Just a note on the accuracy of the RCB. While for the most part, it is precise, there are a few notable errors. I asked Brendan about one way back here:

http://animenation.net/forums/showthrea ... adid=67631

To quote though

No - it is not a translation error.

The RCB is wrong.

While the Program Book's are great things, and I'm glad to own them, they should only really be used to add to what we already know. They are not infallible.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

They are similar until the very end, when Shinji is Complemented (as he is described by a canon source) in the TV ending and rejects it in EoE.

Complementation is based on a lie, and Shinji accepts it in the TV series. I will concede that it is just my opinion, I just happen to share the same opinion as Brenden, and I find that his reasons work.

Just because the epsidodes contain similarities does not mean that they cannot possess different endings.

Oh, and it is my opinion that the Lance is from Lilith, she is damaged and it is used mainly to restrain her, as well as there being nothing of Adam left other then His embryo.

I will not debate you on this at this time, as it is 4:15 AM.

EDIT: Oh, big fucking deal on the error in the RCB. Just switch "Lilith" with "Adam" and it works fine.

[Sharp-kun]

They are similar until the very end, when Shinji is Complemented (as he is described by a canon source) in the TV ending and rejects it in EoE.

But I just quoted the script, where he says he is going to continue to exist. In the same episode, he says that accepting it is ceasing to exist. After that, the fake world he's in explodes, and people congratulate him on realising that he can exist in the real world.
The script overrides all else.

Oh, and it is my opinion that the Lance is from Lilith, she is damaged and it is used mainly to restrain her, as well as there being nothing of Adam left other then His embryo.

The Lance being used to restrain Lilith is a common myth. However, when you look at it:

Lilith lost her legs in 2005 (See Ep 23', in which we see her being torn apart to make EVA-01), the Lance was put in In 2015 (See Ep 14). Was it needed to restrain her, they would have done it far sooner and not waited 10 years.
The Lance was used to prompt her regeneration, which was needed by Gendo and SEELE. Lilith's on the cross for 10 years and doesn't regenerate, Lance goes in, Lance comes out. Boom! New legs!

As for the lance itself, I'll post an old post of mine on it:

The Lance of Longinus. What is It? – (Revised)

First off, assume that the Lance is an S2 –

Evidence, summarised:

1) The Shape, a double helix. S2 = Super Solonoid, a solenoid is a helix, S2 could also stand for 2 helixes, like where the lances 2 prongs meet.
2) The fact that it gives Lilith the energy to regenerate
3) It has the energy to penetrate any AT-Field, a feat requiring a lot of power.


Assuming the Lance is an S2, the question can arise to how was it created. The best explanation follows. Thanks MDWigs for the to the updated translation by Bochan_bird ^_^

http://eva.onegeek.org/archive/297/67 <-Alas this doesn't work any more, but its a link to Bochan, who does Evaotaku's translations posting an updated version, and commenting on the Adam-Lance-S2 idea.

="Antarctica 2000AD (Ep 21’)"]
"What about the Lance of Longinus?"
"It's still where it was brought ashore after arriving from the Dead Sea
last week."
"Isn't some processing necessary before taking the Lance underground?
Will it be okay?"
"The physical contact experiment *with the provider* is scheduled for
the 13th of next month. There's plenty of time for any adjustment."

It’s also stated in the “D&R Deluxe movie program” that the Lance was originally found in Antarctica. Putting these 2 things together it appears that the Lance is Adams’s S2, that was found with him in Antarctica, taken to the Dead Sea for study, then returned for the contact experiment.

We also see, in Ep 23', Adam's dicovery. If you look, you can see the Lance sticking out of him.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-8/46940/Adam.jpg

The Lance is from Adam, as stated and shown in the series.

I will not debate you on this at this time, as it is 4:15 AM.

I look forward to later ^_^

EDIT: Oh, big fucking deal on the error in the RCB. That error is not on the Eva Otaku version, so I didn't know about it.

It is. That's why I raised the issue with Brendan:

http://www.evaotaku.com/html/glossary2.html#EE

Angels come from Adam, not Lilith. The fact that you can just change it and it works doesn't matter, its still a mistake.

Another thing in it is the origins of Kaworu, which I brought up here:

http://animenation.net/forums/showthrea ... did=108359

It contradicts there series on that.

I'm merely pointing out his site, and most notably the RCB, is not perfect. It doesn't have all the DC scenes listed, and those that are don't always have the complete translation (See 2nd Impact scene).

I respect the work Brendan has done, and discussions with him have helped me on a few points, but there are a couple of things I disagree with him on. The ending is one of them.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Ugh... for me.

I fully concede on your points regarding the Lance and its relation to Adam and Lilith.

Honestly what you said makes perfect sense, and I feel really stupid and embarassed right now.

To be honest I tend to forget a lot of stuff when I haven't watched the series and films for some time, and it's been about four months since I've last watched the series in full (particularly the last group of episodes, which I think you'll agree are the most importent, information-wise). School work and them being at home in CR are one group of obsticals, while not having access to a stand-alone DVD player (only a PS2 and DVD drives, our player is in a sealed up section of the house that's being worked on) that would allow for easier frame-advancing and scene analysis.

I also don't have many Eva books or texts (only the NT 100% Collection book, actually), so there's another problem. I make do with my limited resources.

I guess I'd better get some sleep before I embarass myself further...

[Sharp-kun]

Ugh... for me.

I fully concede on your points regarding the Lance and its relation to Adam and Lilith.

Thank you ^_^

Honestly what you said makes perfect sense, and I feel really stupid and embarassed right now.

No need to be. You're not the first. When I first saw Eva many years ago, I had quite a few silly notions

I also don't have many Eva books or texts (only the NT 100% Collection book, actually), so there's another problem. I make do with my limited resources.

Other than Brendan's site, which is best for the Program Books and the basic FAQ, I do recommend the following reads:

www.mdwigs.tk Michael is probably the most knowlegable Eva person on the net. A great guy to debate with. Unfortunatly his site barely scratches the surface of what he's done, as a lot of his stuff was in the form of posts on mailing lists and forums, not all of which are still around.

A final example just to show how much Anno put into Eva is here:

http://animenation.net/forums/showthrea ... did=112336


There is no site that has it all unfortunatly. The best way to learn about the more interesting stuff in Evangelion is to discuss it.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Well, I do know quite a lot (that line is my sig isn't there for nuttin' ), it's just that I have a bad memory and currently don't have access to my DVDs.

Thanks for the thread link. While I think it's a stretch to say quantum mechanics, as the image on the office floor looks like an old chart to me, it's an interesting idea, and shows at least that visually Eva is full of all kinds of junk.

Always wondered what the "legs" image was of, although I think I was better off not knowing...

The triangle-circle thing I think might relate to some kind of symbol somewhere.

Oh, a somewhat simple test but speaking of errors, you know of the factual error that's present in a line spoken during 26' that exists in all main sources (Japanese audio, English audio, English subs, Bochan's translated script, etc...), right?

[Joe]

Take a picture, folks, because this is never gonna happen again...Spanky being humbled on Eva knowledge is a bit like IP being humbled on SW EU knowledge.

[Sharp-kun]

Thanks for the thread link. While I think it's a stretch to say quantum mechanics, as the image on the office floor looks like an old chart to me, it's an interesting idea, and shows at least that visually Eva is full of all kinds of junk.

While Quantum Mechanics might be taking it a bit far, as anyone whos watched Anno's other works like Gunbuster will have seen, he does put a lot of science stuff in his works.

Oh, a somewhat simple test but speaking of errors, you know of the factual error that's present in a line spoken during 26' that exists in all main sources (Japanese audio, English audio, English subs, Bochan's translated script, etc...), right?

Not off the top of my head, though I recall someone mentioning such a thing ages ago. I haven't been as active in discussions as I used to be, mostly due to work, and a large barrage of anime to get through. Some of the more random stuff I've forgotten, or is buried in various old posts and threads I've got saved somewhere. ^_^;;;

I'm well aware of the mistake in Ep 25', due to the fact that some of us warned Manga about that line and were ignored.
http://www.evaotaku.com/misatolines

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Take a picture, folks, because this is never gonna happen again...Spanky being humbled on Eva knowledge is a bit like IP being humbled on SW EU knowledge.

Hey now, you don't have to rub it in...

Anyway, Sharp, the error is when the Black Moon is rising between the E and F layers, and the computer in the NERV Command Center announces (in all sources) that they are at an altitude of 120,000 kilometers.

The problem is that 120,000 KM is about 2/3 the distance from the Earth to the Moon, and they were still (relatively) just above the surface. The statement works if you change kilometers to meters, making it just 120 KM, which Utsanomiko and I have confirmed using the programme Celestia fits with the scene depicted.

It's not that serious of an error, but it bugs the hell out of me every time I watch it...

EDIT: Oh and by the way, watch out for MK Sheppard here. He goes after Eva fans with a passion of illogic...

[Sharp-kun]

Take a picture, folks, because this is never gonna happen again...Spanky being humbled on Eva knowledge is a bit like IP being humbled on SW EU knowledge.

Hey now, you don't have to rub it in...

Anyway, Sharp, the error is when the Black Moon is rising between the E and F layers, and the computer in the NERV Command Center announces (in all sources) that they are at an altitude of 120,000 kilometers.

The problem is that 120,000 KM is about 2/3 the distance from the Earth to the Moon, and they were still (relatively) just above the surface. The statement works if you change kilometers to meters, making it just 120 KM, which Utsanomiko and I have confirmed using the programme Celestia fits with the scene depicted.

It's not that serious of an error, but it bugs the hell out of me every time I watch it...

Its actually 220,000 km.

I recall this from a trivia thread a year or 2 ago. ^_^

A more annoying thing for me is ADV's mistranslation of the title of Ep 26. It should be "The Beast that shouted Love at the Heart of the World", a reference by Anno to the novel by Harlan Ellison.

[EDIT: Oh and by the way, watch out for MK Sheppard here. He goes after Eva fans with a passion of illogic...

Oh good. ^_^

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Damn it, I meant 220!

Gah, It's been a rough week...

Sleep is good for you.

EDIT: By the way, I've edited my sig so it is a bit more appropriate.