Is Square losing their touch? (Now with Major Spoilers)

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-20 01:40am

I've been playing Square RPG's since Final Fantasy I and for the most part, I have enjoyed them immensely. I'm one of the few who absolutely adored FF VIII and I'm also a huge fan of the Chrono series. In fact I think the Chrono series epitomizes Square's brilliance with storytelling and game design.

Lately though, I have been under whelmed by their efforts. Final Fantasy X felt uninspired and while Kingdom Hearts was certainly intriguing, it didn't grab me the way the rest of their past efforts did. Now we have FFXI, FFX-2 and Kingdom Hearts 2 on the horizon and I can't say that I'm really looking forward to any of them.

Does anyone else feel that Square is losing their touch? Anyone have any suggestions on how they might improve their killer franchises? I'm afraid that Square is losing touch with their audience--people like me who have stayed with them over the years because of their compelling stories and characters, not flashy graphics or voiced dialogue.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-20 01:55am

I disagree. I thoroughly enjoyed Kingom Hearts, especially the last tenth or so, and I'm looking forward to the sequel.

My beef with Square is that they're gonig to make FFXI an network-based game. In fact, they're going to require you to buy an add-on for the PS2 so that you can play it. This isn't sitting well with me. Games are expensive enough by themselves without being you being forced to buy extra equipment for them. On top of that, a networking FF just doesn't rub me the right way. To me, the FF series has always been something you could run away to and immerse yourself in and forget anything else. Making a FF where you'll have to worry about fighing other players just seems wrong to me.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-20 01:58am

I disagree, myself. Six is still the untouchable champion of the series, seven felt 'eeeeeeh', eight disgusted me, and CC was just like 'what? this is trying to be a Chrono game?'. Nine really felt like Final Fantasy again, and Ten was really good. My vibe on X-2 will be that it will be very much a fan's game, between fanservice and a tongue-in-cheek feel some people have reported. I won't be getting into eleven; while I hear good things from FF enthusiasts who went through the trouble to get it, MMORPG's aren't my thing. KH's playing style(Realtime combat) is something I suck at, so I can't comment effectively on it or KH2.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-20 02:07am

I don't know why so many people hate Chrono Cross. I think that the storyline was absolutely increadible.

***MAJOR CC SPOILERS***

I mean, how could you not like the whole concept of FATE? A computer system that controls human destiny. Not just a computer running a society like has been pushed in a lot of sci-fi, but one that actually controls human DESTINY. Of course, I'm a big Asimov nut so I guess I like the whole idea of interaction between man and machine.

Kingdom Hearts was alright, I just thought that the gameplay itself was lacking. Still, I had a bunch of fun, but it felt like more of a side game for Square rather than their yearly blockbuster.

FFVIII I liked because it was a much more personal story and I think that Square's strength has always been in characters. Of course the bad 'guys' certainly weren't the best, but I really liked the rest of it. FFVI of course remains unsurpassed (although the Chrono series is close).

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-20 02:14am

The Kernel wrote:I don't know why so many people hate Chrono Cross. I think that the storyline was absolutely increadible.

<Snip CC Spoiler>

As a RPG on it's own two feet, it's okay. The levelling system pissed me off, there were too many characters with too little variation, a serious lack of dual/triple techs, and the ending was a little too eco-weenie. This all makes me pissed that it's a Chrono game. Chrono games are held to higher standards.

Kingdom Hearts was alright, I just thought that the gameplay itself was lacking. Still, I had a bunch of fun, but it felt like more of a side game for Square rather than their yearly blockbuster.

Indeed.

FFVIII I liked because it was a much more personal story and I think that Square's strength has always been in characters. Of course the bad 'guys' certainly weren't the best, but I really liked the rest of it. FFVI of course remains unsurpassed (although the Chrono series is close).

Eight.. Man. I could go on about what I hated about eight for a while. The fact levelling made almost no differences. The incredible tedium. The utter ridiculousness of some of the weapons. The setting really set me off, though. It was not FF. You have to understand: I came in on the ground floor. Started with FF1, played 4 and 6. Then I got imports of 5 and 3. Then X. Then IX. After all this, I started eight. And wtf, it's nothing like the rest in setting. No destined heros, no mysterious pasts, just fucking corporate hitmen. No grand mysterious magic, just things everyone understands and uses. That, and Squall really grated against me. In a big way.

As for VI and CT? Declaring which is the better game there is hard. Both are so wonderfully wonderful.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-09-20 02:17am

FFVI stomps on all of them.

The only game in the series that I had a dislike for was FFIX. What a boring and mediocre game. Don't even know why I bothered to get to disk 3.

Square should bring a 2d game into the series.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2003-09-20 02:20am

People I've spoken to about FF games seem more concerned with "FF-ness" than if the game is good enough. They constantly rail against FF8 (my favorite) saying "it's not like an FF game." It doesn't matter what it's like. It's more fun than the other ones. If it was the same as the others, than how could its entertainment value change?

There are also those who complain that FF11 is an MMORPG that needs online access and a monthly fee. If you're against those things, you'd be against any other MMORPG. This is an MMORPG in the FF series. It will be different from other FF games, and also different from other MMORPGs, and this will make it more fun than either of those.

Making all FF the same sucks. FF6 was cool and all, but it's not nearly as uber as people say and it has its own share of flaws. Each FF game now seems like an experiment to see what's good. Doing this can only help improve things.

And in any case, they're releasing Seiken Densetsu Shinyaku for GBA. That alone should restore anyone's faith in their coolness.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-20 02:23am

Eight.. Man. I could go on about what I hated about eight for a while. The fact levelling made almost no differences. The incredible tedium. The utter ridiculousness of some of the weapons. The setting really set me off, though. It was not FF. You have to understand: I came in on the ground floor. Started with FF1, played 4 and 6. Then I got imports of 5 and 3. Then X. Then IX. After all this, I started eight. And wtf, it's nothing like the rest in setting. No destined heros, no mysterious pasts, just fucking corporate hitmen. No grand mysterious magic, just things everyone understands and uses. That, and Squall really grated against me. In a big way.

As for VI and CT? Declaring which is the better game there is hard. Both are so wonderfully wonderful.

You know, I understand where your coming from on FF VIII. I'm coming from a history of FF as well, and I've played every game in the series besides FF III. Yes, the leveling system pissed me off. Yes the draw system pissed me off. Yes, the GF system pissed me off. Despite all this though, I saw past it and in the end I thought it told an increadible story. But I suppose it really only works if you like the characters and I thought Squall's perpetual morose character was brilliant as I was always interested in finding out more about his past. It really kept the game moving. As for the setting, it was different, but so was FF VII and a lot more people love FF VIII.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-20 02:26am

Seggybop wrote: Making all FF the same sucks. FF6 was cool and all, but it's not nearly as uber as people say and it has its own share of flaws.

Man, Kefka was so completely awesome, plus the whole planet being destroyed and all just made FF VI such a memorable adventure.

Cyborg Stan · Post by **Cyborg Stan** » 2003-09-20 02:33am

I didn't like FF8 too much - it was far too slow for me. Only barely got past the first disc. I suppose the problem was that it was a bit slow, on top of a system that actually discouraged (I've seen FAQs that describe how to avoid leveling up.) battles, and even when battling it's encouraged to drag it out for a good long while. (Ie, drawing out hundreds of magic spells from a single encounter.) You don't even get too much of a monetary motivation - you just need to fight a few to maintain.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-20 02:44am

Hmm. I haven't played much from the 3-D realm of Square games, only Chrono Cross, FFVII and FFX. But from what I've seen (and this includes FF4-6 and CT) Square knows how to write a damn good story. I've always liked loner/rebel/hero type games, and Square has some excellent examples of them. I mean, FF4 had the redeemed hero with a small group saving the world, and FF5 had the four random(?) strangers saving the world (from what I can tell so far). FF7 was about a group of rebels as well, rebel nutbars with deep pasts saving the world (and from what I can tell has one HELL of a plot, though I'm not very far)...and FF10 had such a feeling of desperation and loneliness surrounding it that I desperately want to play more despite the heavy amount of cinematics. Of course, they were saving the world.

I feel that Square did kind of drop the ball with Chrono Cross, though. I've played through disc 1, I think, and I'm still not entirely sure what's going on (though I'm sure it involves...saving the world). Though I have to say that I hate Kid.

Like many of you I felt that they reached their real apex near the end of their 16-bit era, with FF6 and Chrono Trigger. I've always held FF6 as one of the best RPGs I've ever played, because at it's heart is a core of rebellion and a desperate fight against impossible odds (waxing poetic here, ain't I?)...to save the world. Again. The story itself unfolds slowly, and you get the plot in bits and pieces; what's more, Kefka is the single coolest villain in any RPG ever made. And nearly every character has a detailed past and usually has some psychological complex; characters that are easy to sympathize with.

As for Chrono Trigger...whoo boy. This was one hot game. Of course, the point was to save the world, but the way you went about it...the story was awesome, the characters were deep (all except for Crono), the time-travel aspect was done well, and the best part of the game? No random encounters. Rock.

EDIT: Of course, I'll have to add on that my favorite RPG ever is Skies of Arcadia: Legends. Airships and pirates and looting and plundering and BLOWING SHIT UP. Along with a really cool plot.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-20 03:04am

Dalton, do me a favor. FINISH Chrono Cross. The best parts of the story really don't come together until the very end and they tie into Chrono Trigger's story nicely. Really, even if you hate the game, you will still love how it ties up a lot of the loose ends left by Chrono Trigger.

Also Kid gets a lot more interesting once you figure out about her past...

Cyborg Stan · Post by **Cyborg Stan** » 2003-09-20 03:10am

FF5 Spoiler :

Galuf is a king in the second world, and was one of the four heroes in an adventure about 20 years previous to the game. Cara is his granddaughter. Butz is the son of one of the other heroes previous to the game. Faris is a she, and she and Lenna are actually sisters, daughters to the same King. So, I wouldn't say that they're random strangers, although they start out that way.

While I don't think Kefka was the deepest of villians, he had two things going for him :
1) He was very, very good at being a villain, and made no apologies about it. There was no question as to what to do with him at the end of the game.
2) He has the best lines ever. His self-help line just before the final battle echoed my own thoughts.

For FF7, I get the impression that the storyline and characters would've been stronger if they finished through on it. (IIRC, Yuffie and Vincent were made extra characters due to budget problems.) For example, a more detailed investigation into Vincent's past probably would've revealed more on the creation of Sephiroth and Hojo's plans.

I think I should also mention Xenogears, which beats most of these hands down, despite the annoyance of the entire second disc. (I actually think that the second disc could've been expanded out into an entirely different game. I

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-09-20 03:14am

Hamel wrote:The only game in the series that I had a dislike for was FFIX. What a boring and mediocre game. Don't even know why I bothered to get to disk 3.

That's too bad, because the end of Disk 3 is pretty wild and Disk 4 pulls out all the stops by sending Gaia's entire airship armada into battle against a swarm of dragons, followed by a series of titanic battles with a mix of classic FF enemies and new badasses just aching to tear your guts out.

But ultimately, FF1 is the standard to which I hold FFs (and RPGs in general). It had the perfect mix of plot, magic, combat, and just enough WTF technology (airships, soldiers, robots) to make it worthwhile.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-20 03:25am

Kernel: One of these days, I will. However, I still have to finish FF5,6,7 and 8 as well as Skies of Arcadia and Xenogears.

Stan: I knew about most of that regarding FF5. Thanks for spoiling the bit about Butz

(though for some reason that rings a bell). And Kefka indeed had a lot of really twisted lines. As for FF7 and Xenogears, shhh

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-09-20 10:19am

Have you forgotten about Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced? While I saw that they were making a Final Fantasy game on the GBA I was hoping for a return to the good old days(FF1-6 style), but I'm still happy with what came out. The plot is so so, but the accual game is addictive, I'm on my second play through right now trying to do it with completely different Jobs, and I accually want to try it like it is ment to be played, no save states. Now usually in a game once I get the story I'm done, I don't go find all the golden skulltullas, heart pieces, stars, medals, chao, etc. It's very rare that I can play a linear game(not something like SSBM) over again, especially not so soon after I beat it.

Oh and FF6 == teh roxors, followed by CT and FF5.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-09-20 10:36am

I didn't like FFIX much at all...There was something about it that just didn't feel right. Hard to explain, the entire thing just irked me. The best part of the entire game was the scene Kuja described with the Armada vs. Dragons thing...that kicked ass. FFVIII was, alright...a few things were wierd but I still prefered it over FFIX. I loved FFVII, it was very cool. But I'd say my favorite FF by far was Final Fantasy Tactics. And from what I can tell, FFT Advance has one of the worst storylines ever...and I still think it looks too kiddy...

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-09-20 10:59am

A while back, someone said that Chrono games are held to higher standards. But, before CC, there was only one Chrono game...right?

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-09-20 11:35am

Now time for my opinions.
Having played almost all of the Final Fantasy games, and beating everyone I have played, I would have to say that I think FF7 is the best. The characters, while somewhat insane, seem more real. They aren't normal people, because frankly, normal people don't survive nuclear attacks dropped on their heads. FFVIII had probably the most intriging storyline however. With all the characters tying together, and everything being part of a huge temporal loop, it seemed very cool. And the music was simply incredible. FFIX was boring. It was far too easy, and was not fun getting anywhere. FFX was fine, but was still too easy. It never felt like you could actually lose, where in all the previous games, even maxed out parties could be beaten. Final Fantasy tactics is a close second to FFVII. The betrayal, and redemtion parts of the storyline, along with a very interesting battle system makes that game have insanely high replay value. It is also fun to drop meteors on goblins.
But thats just my hairbrain opinion.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-09-20 12:18pm

Dark Hellion wrote:Now time for my opinions.
Having played almost all of the Final Fantasy games, and beating everyone I have played, I would have to say that I think FF7 is the best. The characters, while somewhat insane, seem more real. They aren't normal people, because frankly, normal people don't survive nuclear attacks dropped on their heads. FFVIII had probably the most intriging storyline however. With all the characters tying together, and everything being part of a huge temporal loop, it seemed very cool. And the music was simply incredible. FFIX was boring. It was far too easy, and was not fun getting anywhere. FFX was fine, but was still too easy. It never felt like you could actually lose, where in all the previous games, even maxed out parties could be beaten. Final Fantasy tactics is a close second to FFVII. The betrayal, and redemtion parts of the storyline, along with a very interesting battle system makes that game have insanely high replay value. It is also fun to drop meteors on goblins.
But thats just my hairbrain opinion.

That's about the same opinion as me. I loved Tactic's storyline and battle system.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-09-20 12:53pm

HemlockGrey wrote:A while back, someone said that Chrono games are held to higher standards. But, before CC, there was only one Chrono game...right?

Yes. CT kicked my ass so badly the bar is now set impossibly high, and I will be bitter when Chrono Break comes out.

As for the complaint 'FF games shouldn't be the same', no, they shouldn't. But after seven games, they had an established 'feel'. It was an odd mix of steampunk and high fantasy, of ruins of golden ages and strange powers at work. What do we get in eight? A modern world where the only mystic forces are so common they're taught in school. I suppose one could work wonders with such a setting, but this completely alien setting, combined with the incredibly tedium of the game, and the slowly building plot alienated myself, and I'm sure a good deal of others.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-09-20 01:15pm

I'm only going to cover the games I've played, which aren't many:

FF1: the grand-daddy of them all. A solid game for its time. Frickin' tough and long for an NES cart. No real plot, but no RPG had deep plot at that time.

FF2: Ummm...probably would have helped if I could read Japanese, since I got a non-translated ROM (which lasted 2 days before deletion). Looked like a great game, though.

FF6: Good game. Kefka was one of the best villains ever. For some reason I never got deeply into this one.

FF7: IMO, possibly the most overrated FF game. When you compare the single SNES cart of FF6 to the three discs of FF7, the improvement wasn't that great. I didn't care for the Materia system. The summons were awesome, though. I will admit I wish Knights of the Round had reappeared in FFX.

FF8: Blech. Mediocre graphics, mediocre plot, mediocre background and bad dialog make for a poor FF game.

FFX: I enjoy this one. The long cutscenes do get somewhat annoying (particularly the boss ones of you lose...

) but the game itself I mostly like. The one problem is that all the weapons are the same...no matter which ball Wakka uses, only the slots matter.

FF Tactics: Great game. Some truly insane fights (Gafgarion at the Gates, the battle on the roof) and an interesting twist on Final Fantasy.

CT: My favorite RPG of all time. Very long, with sidequests out the wazoo and the elusive EX File Game. Has the problem of Silent Main Hero, but a great game altogether.

CC: A disappointment of a sequel. Too many characters to develop any sort of interesting sub-plots. Many are rather generic. The magic system sucked ass. The ending was lame. It seemed like a SMB2...a game developed with another setting in mind, then slapped with a "Crono" label at the last second. Just not good.

IMO, Square was good in the NES and SNES era, but has been very hit-or-miss on modern consoles. Hopefully they'll get it turned around for X-2 (I'm not bothering with XI because of cost issues).

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-09-20 02:26pm

FF1: the grand-daddy of them all. A solid game for its time. Frickin' tough and long for an NES cart. No real plot, but no RPG had deep plot at that time.

It's a bug-raddled mess.

There are spells that do nothing, stats that do nothing, one spell that even does the OPPOSITE of what it's meant to do, a heal spell that's twice as effective as it should be, several spells that all do the same, a monster list straight out of the AD&D Monster Manual, no balance at all between classes, enemy-specific weapons that don't work...

It's fun as an exercise in where the series has come from, as is FF2 (which displays similar hideous failings), but really, the series starts with FFIII (which is enormous for a NES game).

(the Origins versions of both are fixed)

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-09-20 02:38pm

EDIT: Of course, I'll have to add on that my favorite RPG ever is Skies of Arcadia: Legends. Airships and pirates and looting and plundering and BLOWING SHIT UP. Along with a really cool plot.

The Delphinius could have every single other airship ever. All at once.

SoA manages to nicely overcome the weakness that you're just searching for the six legendary mcguffins to beat the big bad foozle by being a huge amount of fun.

Though the original is slightly broken by having an utterly stupid encounter rate, and even in Legends the battles run slightly too slowly. (just in terms of animating the characters running around and doing stuff. they all appear very slow compared to, say, Grandia II)

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-09-20 02:48pm

The Kernel wrote:I've been playing Square RPG's since Final Fantasy I and for the most part, I have enjoyed them immensely. I'm one of the few who absolutely adored FF VIII and I'm also a huge fan of the Chrono series.

Finally another person who loved VIII. I honestly wouldn't have changed anything about the game. It's storyline was good, the cinemas were high-quality, the musical score was brilliant and the character development was excellent. It seemed, to me, to be a game that Square threw a great deal of effort into (I just didn't get that impression from my limited play of IX).

VI, VII and VIII are my all-time favorites in the series. I just wish that they'd revamp VI and put it in full 3-D for the PS2.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Is Square losing their touch? (Now with Major Spoilers)

Is Square losing their touch? (Now with Major Spoilers)

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